The Killing Floor

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oh, not even!

A well-funded aggressive defense counsel would have sought out exculpatory evidence and witness statements, conducted its own investigation--we do not even know what evidence or witness statement have been lost

Or would have ignored them and entered a motion to dismiss had they failed to enter the testimony into evidence. Something like that. More than one way to skin a cat.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

Or would have ignored them and entered a motion to dismiss had they failed to enter the testimony into evidence. Something like that. More than one way to skin a cat.

Right. 

But what I am driving at is a well-funded defense may have found additional witnesses never even interviewed, or evidence not uncovered by official investigative agencies. 

BTW, Wade had a solid track record of finding defendants guilty, whether they were or not.

I am not so sure a Texas jury would have found LHO guilty or not.  Sheesh, a Texas jury once found an LBJ associate innocent of murder despite the most incriminating of circumstances. 

But...even the chance of a jury trial before Wade in front of Texas jury was not taken. As we know, LHO was murdered also. 

[Guest]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:23 PM, Pat Speer said:

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball inexplicably fails to ask William Shelley about Jack Dougherty's 4-8-64 testimony, in which Dougherty claimed Shelley had told him he saw Oswald with a large package on 11-22-63.

I have been thinking about that one, the only thing I can come up with would be like "hearsay" ?  But the WC had been directing an leading all-the-way... so it would not have stopped them to at least explore it.  If Shelley could confirm thàt, they had the case in their pocket*  So many strange things, and even more questions never asked...  frustrating...

*Or... have Shelley sit in the room next to Wesley and Linnie, also taping bags... 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

So you have Dougherty hearing no shots, and you have him returning to work after the assassination. In other words, everything was like a regular lunch break, and a regular return to work after the lunch break.

Since he did not hear any shots, did not see Truly and Baker rush across the first floor, and did not hear Truly yelling out twice for the elevator, you have him in the bathroom.

You then have Dougherty taking the west elevator up to the 6th floor for his return to work, then take the elevator back down to the 5th where he heard a loud noise. You are suggesting this noise was made by Truly/Baker above him. On the 5th is where he is seen by Truly as he comes down from the roof.

Do I have this correct?

 

 

Yes, that is pretty much it. And it's not as if I just dreamt it up one day. A few years back I did a deep dive and added a few chapters to my website on all the physical evidence linking Oswald to the sixth floor. Inspired by those who'd studied the films to try to ID the witnesses on the street, I then decided to read all the witness statements and see if I could place them in the building. Dougherty was the mystery man. But as I read his statements I was struck by his insistence that he came back from lunch after 12:30 and that the sound he heard came from above him. By reading all the statements of all the witnesses, moreover, I was struck by how Ball/Belin avoided asking a number of the witnesses important questions related to where they were in the aftermath of the shooting. Here's a few examples:

1. Baker said there were two men standing near the elevators when he came into the building. It is incredible to me that no effort was made to ID these men. I eventually came to realize that Ball/Belin suspected they were Shelley and Lovelady, and knew they couldn't put this on the record without supporting Vickie Adams' story. So presto! No one was asked about these men.

2. Dougherty said that after hearing the loud sound, he came down to the first floor and spoke to Eddie Piper--who told him the President had been shot, or some such thing. Well, why did Ball/Belin fail to ask Piper when this was? Did he fail to see the relevance? Nope. One of the WC internal memos briefly made available by Howard Willens on his website (before he found out I was using them to draw the WC's conclusions into question and had them removed) was a memo from Joe Ball to Liebeler outlining the questions to ask Piper. Foremost among these were questions about Dougherty. And yet, when Ball questioned Piper himself, he didn't ask him about Dougherty. This suggests two scenarios--neither of which is pleasant. Either Ball realized that he couldn't trust Liebeler to pre-interview Piper and not ask the questions he wanted kept off the record, or Liebeler did in fact interview Piper, and Ball decided to trash it and re-do it himself. In any event, he used Piper to say he didn't see Adams come down (which was probably true seeing as he was up by the coffee and probably distracted by Baker and Truly coming in the front door), but cut Piper off when he said he didn't know who brought the elevators down after the shooting. 

I made a whole list of them. In any event, from reading all the statements and testimony of all the TSBD witnesses it becomes clear that Ball/Belin avoided asking questions (and coming to the proper conclusions related to questions) regarding 1) Oswald's whereabouts prior to the shooting, 2) The timing of Dougherty's return to work and subsequent descent in the elevator, and 3) the timing of Adams and Styles descent on the stairs.

They KNOWINGLY pushed a scenario on the public they knew had holes--and they did so, moreover, under orders from Warren, who told them he wanted a clean record, i.e. a whitewash. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Bob Ness]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Right. 

But what I am driving at is a well-funded defense may have found additional witnesses never even interviewed, or evidence not uncovered by official investigative agencies. 

BTW, Wade had a solid track record of finding defendants guilty, whether they were or not.

I am not so sure a Texas jury would have found LHO guilty or not.  Sheesh, a Texas jury once found an LBJ associate innocent of murder despite the most incriminating of circumstances. 

But...even the chance of a jury trial before Wade in front of Texas jury was not taken. As we know, LHO was murdered also. 

Actually, now that I think about it, the likelihood of Oswald being found innocent by a jury in Texas is between zero and none. So yeah, you're right about that. But Brady was in full effect at that time. Failure to disclose exculpatory evidence could have been good enough on appeal.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Greg Doudna]

I am struck by Victoria Adams' account of Belin's interviewing method and Adams trying to tell Belin to check with her friend Sandra Styles and Belin's dismissal of that idea. Here is another account of David Belin's interviewing procedure, from Roger Craig in 1971.  

"David Belin told me who he was as I entered the interrogation room (April 1964). He had me sit at the head of a long table. To my left was a female with a pencil and pen. Belin sat to my right. Between the girl and Belin was a tape recorder, which was turned off. Belin instructed the girl not to take notes until he (Belin) said to do so. He then told me that the investigation was being conducted to determine the truth as the evidence indicates. Well, I cold take that several ways but I said nothing. Then Belin said, 'For instance, I will ask you where you were at a certain time. This will establish your physical location.' It was at this point that I began to feel that I was being led into something but still I said nothing. Then Belin said, 'I will ask you about what you thought you heard or saw in regard.' Well, this was too much. I interrupted him and said, 'Counselor, just ask me the questions and if I can answer them, I will.' This seemed to irritate Belin and he told the girl to start taking notes with the next question.

"At this point Belin turned the recorder on. The first questions were typical. Where were you born? Where did you go to school? When Belin would get to certain questions, he would turn off the recorder and stop the girl from writing. The[n] he would ask me, for example, 'Did you see anything unusual when you were behind the picket fence?' I said, 'Yes' and he said, 'Fine, just a minute.' He would then tell the girl to start writing with the next question and would again start the recorder. What was the question? 'Mr. Craig, did you go into the Texas School Book Depository?' It was clear to me that he wanted only to record part of the interrogation, as this happened many times." (Roger Craig, "When They Kill a President" [1971], from pp. 254-55 of S. Cameron, The Deputy Interviews [2019])

Edited October 18, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Roger Odisio]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RO-

OK, "Did LHO shoot JFK from the 6th Floor window?"

1. If LHO did, someone else was shooting also. The shots strike JBC (Z-295) and JFK (Z-213)  in too-rapid succession to have been issued from a single-shot bolt-action rifle. Also, there is a small round bullet hole in the rear of JBC's shirt. Ergo, no tumbling bullet. 

2. My guess is LHO shot at JFK and missed, intentionally, ala the Walker shooting. That explains the wild miss that struck the curb near James Tague. LHO was then made the patsy by the real perps. 

3. The real perps may have been in the TSBD, or maybe the Dal-Tex building, and also on the GK. The GK gunman may have been only a diversion. 

4. Likely, LHO was murdered to silence him. 

That's about as far as I get. 

Just IMHO....

 

 

 

My mistake.  I thought you had concluded Oswald was not on the 6th floor, but were interested in exploring whether someone else was firing from there instead, since you still put great emphasis on witnesses who claim they saw someone at the window.  Which leads you to the the puzzle of how they got out of there. 

If you haven't decided that, despite everything Ernest showed, elaborated further by The Killing Floor's meticulous accounting of how the WC lied about, distorted, and covered up the actual  evidence of Oswald's whereabouts, or rather where he wasn't, well that's a different story. 

Btw, Oswald being designated the patsy surely didn't depend on him firing a shot.  If it did there would have been actual evidence placing him at the scene.

 

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

My mistake.  I thought you had concluded Oswald was not on the 6th floor, but were interested in exploring whether someone else was firing from there instead, since you still put great emphasis on witnesses who claim they saw someone at the window.  Which leads you to the the puzzle of how they got out of there. 

If you haven't decided that, despite everything Ernest showed, elaborated further by The Killing Floor's meticulous accounting of how the WC lied about, distorted, and covered up the actual  evidence of Oswald's whereabouts, or rather where he wasn't, well that's a different story. 

Btw, Oswald being designated the patsy surely didn't depend on him firing a shot.  If it did there would have been actual evidence placing him at the scene.

 

It goes to Ben’s oft stated theory that Oswald was part of a false flag operation in which his job was to miss. Do I have that right Ben? 

[James DiEugenio]

Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.

I mean Pat Speer has outlined the almost baroque lengths that Ball and Belin went to in order to cover up this fact.

And then when one adds in the evidence he was elsewhere, well I think its pretty convincing. 

 

[Tony Krome]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, that is pretty much it.

Always willing to examine alternate scenarios, so here we go;

The Baker/Sawyer meeting happened at approx 12:38. This was at the 4th floor freight elevator as Baker was descending.

The loud noise you have Dougherty hearing from the 5th floor had to be within minutes beforehand. Lets say 12:36/7

Dougherty has to enter the elevator on the 6th floor before descending to the 5th. Lets say 12:35/6

Dougherty was picking orders on the 6th after ascending from the 1st floor. Here we are getting very close to the time of the assassination, in fact Dougherty would have to enter the elevator almost immediately after it descended (controlled by a person you have not identified) from the 5th floor. 

1. How does Piper not see this mystery person emerge from the elevator within a minute after seeing Truly?

2. How does Dougherty miss all the commotion on the 1st floor as he walked from the bathroom to the elevator?

3. Piper does not see Dougherty or discuss the shots with him as he walked to the elevator?

4, Why did Dougherty return to work at approx 12:32?

5. Indications are that Oswald was in the Domino room at approx 12:23/5. Oswald and Dougherty make no mention of each other, so was Dougherty in the bathroom for up to 15 minutes?

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Always willing to examine alternate scenarios, so here we go;

The Baker/Sawyer meeting happened at approx 12:38. This was at the 4th floor freight elevator as Baker was descending.

The loud noise you have Dougherty hearing from the 5th floor had to be within minutes beforehand. Lets say 12:36/7

Dougherty has to enter the elevator on the 6th floor before descending to the 5th. Lets say 12:35/6

Dougherty was picking orders on the 6th after ascending from the 1st floor. Here we are getting very close to the time of the assassination, in fact Dougherty would have to enter the elevator almost immediately after it descended (controlled by a person you have not identified) from the 5th floor. 

1. How does Piper not see this mystery person emerge from the elevator within a minute after seeing Truly?

2. How does Dougherty miss all the commotion on the 1st floor as he walked from the bathroom to the elevator?

3. Piper does not see Dougherty or discuss the shots with him as he walked to the elevator?

4, Why did Dougherty return to work at approx 12:32?

5. Indications are that Oswald was in the Domino room at approx 12:23/5. Oswald and Dougherty make no mention of each other, so was Dougherty in the bathroom for up to 15 minutes?

1. How does Piper not see this mystery person emerge from the elevator within a minute after seeing Truly?

Possible answer... Several people entering through the back door would later remark that there was a black man watching the door. I suspect this was Piper, and that Truly had told him to guard the door. Whoever came down on the elevator may have seen him over there and turned around and went out the west entrance, which was unguarded for some time after the shooting. Piper would later say he had no idea who came down on the elevators. That suggests to me that, yessiree, he was not watching. 

2. How does Dougherty miss all the commotion on the 1st floor as he walked from the bathroom to the elevator?

Possible answer... Say Dougherty was in the loo. He comes out and Styles and Adams are long gone...Baker and Truly are already upstairs, and Shelley and Lovelady have returned to the front of the building, where Truly told Shelley to guard the entrance. He sees the open freight elevator, and goes back to work.

3. Piper does not see Dougherty or discuss the shots with him as he walked to the elevator?

Possible answer... Nope. Piper is watching the rear entrance. But who knows? Ball/Belin failed to ask Piper about Dougherty. And they only asked Dougherty about Piper's comments once Dougherty returned to the first floor.

4, Why did Dougherty return to work at approx 12:32?

Possible answer... Apparently, he only took a half hour for lunch. He came down at 12 and went back to work at 12:30. He was very conscientious and was the first to arrive every day. He'd finished his lunch and was anxious to get back to work. 

5. Indications are that Oswald was in the Domino room at approx 12:23/5. Oswald and Dougherty make no mention of each other, so was Dougherty in the bathroom for up to 15 minutes?

Possible answer... Dougherty later said he saw Oswald in the second floor break room when he came down to take his lunch in the Domino room. He also said he'd taken a look at the crowd outside but didn't feel like he could go out there. (He had anxiety issues, the nature of which is unclear.) So I think it's possible that between Oswald's going back and forth to the second floor to get drinks, and Dougherty's wandering around a bit...that they missed each other. Eddie Piper said that at 12:00 Oswald told him he was going up or out. if Dougherty came down at 12:00, as claimed, he may have seen Oswald as Oswald was getting a Coke. Perhaps Dougherty ate his lunch, went up to the front door to see what was going on, and then walked back to the bathroom, without realizing Oswald was inside the Domino room. Perhaps Oswald then walked back up to the second floor to get another Coke. Ball/Belin refused to do their job so we lack the information necessary to fully piece together what happened before and after the shooting. But there's no evidence Oswald went back up to the sixth floor, and strong evidence (IMHO) that someone other than Oswald took an elevator down from an upper floor. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

It goes to Ben’s oft stated theory that Oswald was part of a false flag operation in which his job was to miss. Do I have that right Ben? 

Yes, that is my pet theory---it explains the Walker caper, and takes into account LHO's role as a CIA asset. 

I have trouble with the idea that LHO was a CIA asset, inside the TSBD, when a CIA plot unfolded to conduct the JFKA inside the TSBD...but LHO was only a book handler that day, not involved in any way. 

So LHO went home post-JFKA and got his gun....wait. If LHO was in no way involved in the JFKA, why go home and get his gun? He knew something was up.  

My take: Yeah, LHO was a CIA asset, and elements with the CIA did the JFKA, and in part the operations happened inside the TSBD. LHO was involved---likely as the designated patsy, but he was involved.

As I have said, what if LHO had gone down to the street to take pictures of JFK that day? At a minimum, LHO had to be sequestered as JFK went by. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

My mistake.  I thought you had concluded Oswald was not on the 6th floor, but were interested in exploring whether someone else was firing from there instead, since you still put great emphasis on witnesses who claim they saw someone at the window.  Which leads you to the the puzzle of how they got out of there. 

If you haven't decided that, despite everything Ernest showed, elaborated further by The Killing Floor's meticulous accounting of how the WC lied about, distorted, and covered up the actual  evidence of Oswald's whereabouts, or rather where he wasn't, well that's a different story. 

Btw, Oswald being designated the patsy surely didn't depend on him firing a shot.  If it did there would have been actual evidence placing him at the scene.

 

I dunno. 

Eyewitness testimony is always dubious.

In this particular case, eyewitness testimony that has been monkeyed with, or added to years later by old recollections, even if earnest.

Yes, authorities monkeyed with evidence to fit their narrative---that LHO alone did it. 

But I would say, based on multiple and independent and same-day accounts, there was at least one, and probably two people on the Sixth Floor during the JFKA, and one of them stuck a rifle barrel out of a window during the JFKA. 

OK, so there was at least one and likely two JFKA accomplices on the Sixth Floor during the JFKA. 

Where is he or are they? How did he/they get down? No one saw strangers descending the stairs. If they could get down unobserved...then  LHO could get down unobserved. 

The fact is, not one witness has ever said, " I was standing with LHO at he time JFKA shots rang out."

In fact, LHO is invisible at the time of the shooting. No photographs have emerged of LHO on the street, etc. In truth, no one knows where was LHO during the actual JFKA. 

We know LHO was smart, trained in spy-work, deception, young and lithe (remember, this guy got through Marine boot camp at age 17). 

We know LHO was a CIA asset and elements of the CIA likely perped the JFKA. 

My take: Yeah, LHO was involved. I worry that the JFKA research community, in its justifiable zeal to refute the official narrative and expose official malfeasance, has inaccurately adopted the "LHO is totally uninvolved" narrative. 

I suspect LHO became the designated patsy post-JFKA, and he participated  in what he thought a false-flag op to shoot at, but miss, JFK, an act to be blamed on Castro. 

That's my story and I am sticking with it...IMHO

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

I find it interesting that Piper was called back by the Commission to testify again in May after his original appearance earlier in April; meaning at some point during the previous month the WC took testimony about Adams that necessitated them bringing Piper back in...

[James DiEugenio]

Can you be more specific Matt?