The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

26 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

I find it interesting that Piper was called back by the Commission to testify again in May after his original appearance earlier in April; meaning at some point during the previous month the WC took testimony about Adams that necessitated them bringing Piper back in...

Here is what Ball wrote Liebeler on May 6, 1964.

 

"Eddie Piper: The deposition of Eddie Piper was taken in Dallas Texas on Wednesday, April 8 1964. Piper is a Janitor employed by the Texas School Book Depository. He watched the motorcade from the first floor window which opens on to Elm. After he heard the shots he walked away from the window. He saw Truly and some officer (Baker) run into the building and up the stairway. Ask Piper if he saw Jack Dougherty come to the first floor immediately afterwards.  Dougherty has testified that he was on the fifth floor when he heard the shots; that he came to the first floor by way of the west elevator; that the first person 'whom he saw was Eddie Piper; that Piper then told him that the President had been shot. Also ask Eddie Piper if he saw Vickie Adams come to the first floor. If' he did see Vickie Adams find out if he saw Vickie before or after he saw Truly and the police officer go up the stairs. If he says that he saw Dougherty and Vickie Adams come to the first floor, ask him which one he saw first. Vickie Adams has testified that she ran to the first floor immediately after the shooting. As she did not see Truly' or Baker she must have come down the stairs after they went up the stairs."

He stressed the importance of asking Piper about Dougherty. It is incredibly suspicious then that he ended up questioning Piper himself and failed to ask him about Dougherty, at least officially. This makes me suspect--no, scratch that, know--that Ball asked Piper questions about Dougherty off the record and then failed to ask them again after going on the record. He then added something into the WR about Dougherty and Piper being confused and unreliable. So it wasn't just Adams who was targeted and smeared by Ball/Belin. They should have been disbarred, IMO. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can you be more specific Matt?

Well, I defer to Pat, as he is knowledgeable wrt the TSBD witnesses and I am not, but one would think that Eddie Piper would ostensibly be a minor figure in the Commission's investigation, and anything he had to contribute could have been easily covered in his original visit with the WC. But that was not the case. He was recalled for testimony a month later, which to me says that the Adams and Dougherty angles were extremely thorny issues for the WC lawyers.

[Chris Davidson]

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Here is what Ball wrote Liebeler on May 6, 1964.

 

"Eddie Piper: The deposition of Eddie Piper was taken in Dallas Texas on Wednesday, April 8 1964. Piper is a Janitor employed by the Texas School Book Depository. He watched the motorcade from the first floor window which opens on to Elm. After he heard the shots he walked away from the window. He saw Truly and some officer (Baker) run into the building and up the stairway. Ask Piper if he saw Jack Dougherty come to the first floor immediately afterwards.  Dougherty has testified that he was on the fifth floor when he heard the shots; that he came to the first floor by way of the west elevator; that the first person 'whom he saw was Eddie Piper; that Piper then told him that the President had been shot. Also ask Eddie Piper if he saw Vickie Adams come to the first floor. If' he did see Vickie Adams find out if he saw Vickie before or after he saw Truly and the police officer go up the stairs. If he says that he saw Dougherty and Vickie Adams come to the first floor, ask him which one he saw first. Vickie Adams has testified that she ran to the first floor immediately after the shooting. As she did not see Truly' or Baker she must have come down the stairs after they went up the stairs."

He stressed the importance of asking Piper about Dougherty. It is incredibly suspicious then that he ended up questioning Piper himself and failed to ask him about Dougherty, at least officially. This makes me suspect--no, scratch that, know--that Ball asked Piper questions about Dougherty off the record and then failed to ask them again after going on the record. He then added something into the WR about Dougherty and Piper being confused and unreliable. So it wasn't just Adams who was targeted and smeared by Ball/Belin. They should have been disbarred, IMO. 

Pat, let me ask you directly:

Is it possible the perps on the Sixth Floor simply took the elevator down? 

I am assuming there was at least a diversion on the Sixth Floor---a rifle barrel extending from the building during the JFKA. Likely two men involved. Ergo, accomplices. 

My guess is there were two men on the Sixth Floor during the JFKA, and one shot in earnest at JFK. LHO may have shot and intentionally missed.

But set aside LHO, since he causes controversy.

How did those two men leave the building unobserved? 

 

[Matt Allison]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

How did those two men leave the building unobserved? 

 

Not difficult to imagine such a thing happening, seeing as LHO had no problem leaving the building unobserved;

Not a single pic of him on the street, no co-workers seeing him walking away.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Not difficult to imagine such a thing happening, seeing as LHO had no problem leaving the building unobserved;

Not a single pic of him on the street, no co-workers seeing him walking away.

Yes, but I mean how did the two perps---even if not LHO---descend the stairs unseen and then out to the street?

There is a lot of discussion here that getting down the stairs unseen in the immediate post-JFKA was nigh impossible. 

So, did the perps simply take the working elevator? 

As a totally speculative aside, I have wondered if the perps hid in the publisher's offices inside the TSBD.

AFAIK, the publisher's offices (separate businesses from the TSBD) were never searched. While hard to hide a human being in such an office, surely weapons could be stashed, perhaps even in the hidden compartment of a desk or credenza, etc. 

The perps could put on suits, flash some Secret Service badges and head on out...there are stories of men posing as Secret Service near the TSBD in the post-JFKA.

I am uncomfortable with the "LHO was not involved, no one saw him on the stairs" argument. 

No one saw the two bona fide perps, whoever they were (even if not LHO) on the stairs either. 

So...no one was on the Sixth Floor? Then who stuck the rifle barrel out of the window during the JFKA, as seen by multiple same-day witnesses? 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

 

>>>>>>  that Ball asked Piper questions about Dougherty off the record and then failed to ask them again after going on the record.  <<<<<<

 

 

Asking certain witnesses questions "off the record" before their later sworn testimony and purposely choosing different ones or not asking them again "on the record" seems to have been the MO of several WC interviewing staff.

Talk about a laughably outrageous - integrity compromised means of controlling the fit the narrative investigative questioning process.

They did this with how many witnesses?

Sorry Mr. Seth Kantor, your sworn testimony recalling meeting and talking to Jack Ruby inside Parkland Hospital the early afternoon of 11,22,1963 just didn't happen.

We feel that most probably your recounting of this meeting was the result of hyper-anxiety induced hallucinatory factors. 

Now, Jack Ruby's disjointed meandering account of his actions during that time were far more rational and believable in our minds.

The most ablest, judicious and unbiased truth seeking WC.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

33 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, but I mean how did the two perps---even if not LHO---descend the stairs unseen and then out to the street?

There is a lot of discussion here that getting down the stairs unseen in the immediate post-JFKA was nigh impossible. 

So, did the perps simply take the working elevator? 

As a totally speculative aside, I have wondered if the perps hid in the publisher's offices inside the TSBD.

AFAIK, the publisher's offices (separate businesses from the TSBD) were never searched. While hard to hide a human being in such an office, surely weapons could be stashed, perhaps even in the hidden compartment of a desk or credenza, etc. 

The perps could put on suits, flash some Secret Service badges and head on out...there are stories of men posing as Secret Service near the TSBD in the post-JFKA.

I am uncomfortable with the "LHO was not involved, no one saw him on the stairs" argument. 

No one saw the two bona fide perps, whoever they were (even if not LHO) on the stairs either. 

So...no one was on the Sixth Floor? Then who stuck the rifle barrel out of the window during the JFKA, as seen by multiple same-day witnesses? 

 

 

 

For several years now I have been making the argument that the perp or perps took the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up. They could have then walked out the side door without being seen. Or maybe they were seen... Several witnesses said they saw two men they assumed were FBI standing around behind the building after the shooting. Well, the FBI was not on the scene at that time. 

But it may not be that complicated. They may have walked out the front door. Oswald, after all, is purported to have walked out the front door--without anyone noticing! And it's worse than that. Pierce Allman and Terrence Ford went into the building just after the shots were fired, and used a phone. And yet, apparently, they were not questioned prior to their exit. Well, this means that there were strangers within the building, who were not questioned, for some time after the shots. And, well, this suggests they could have waited around until they found the right moment to escape. 

Here is an FBI report on Ford...

"Mr. Ford stated that he had accompanied Mr. Allman to the corner of Houston and Elm Streets to watch the procession; that upon hearing shots, he retreated to a concrete building near the side of the small park bordering Elm Street, then running back toward the Texas School Book Depository. He followed Allman into the building, walking on his right side. He remembers Allman turning to his left to ask a white male the location of a telephone. Ford stated the white male, who he can neither identify nor describe, indicated in some manner that a telephone was inside a room directly ahead. Ford does not remember Allman identifying himself at this time. Ford stated that he did not have a press card at this time and did not identify himself to anyone until he left the building about one hour later." (CD354, p6)

Edited October 18, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Sean Coleman]

…..or they just got hidden amongst boxes till they could emerge and blend in. Too simple?

[Pat Speer]

3 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

…..or they just got hidden amongst boxes till they could emerge and blend in. Too simple?

Yes, absolutely. If they were dressed like cops or looked like cops no one would have noticed. I think it was Luke Mooney who said that two unidentified cops ran down the stairs as he ran up. Incredibly, the WC made no attempt at figuring out who they were!

[Benjamin Cole]

16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

For several years now I have been making the argument that the perp or perps took the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up. They could have then walked out the side door without being seen. Or maybe they were seen... Several witnesses said they saw two men they assumed were FBI standing around behind the building after the shooting. Well, the FBI was not on the scene at that time. 

But it may not be that complicated. They may have walked out the front door. Oswald, after all, is purported to have walked out the front door--without anyone noticing! And it's worse than that. Pierce Allman and Terrence Ford went into the building just after the shots were fired, and used a phone. And yet, apparently, they were not questioned prior to their exit. Well, this means that there were strangers within the building, who were not questioned, for some time after the shots. And, well, this suggests they could have waited around until they found the right moment to escape. 

Here is an FBI report on Ford...

"Mr. Ford stated that he had accompanied Mr. Allman to the corner of Houston and Elm Streets to watch the procession; that upon hearing shots, he retreated to a concrete building near the side of the small park bordering Elm Street, then running back toward the Texas School Book Depository. He followed Allman into the building, walking on his right side. He remembers Allman turning to his left to ask a white male the location of a telephone. Ford stated the white male, who he can neither identify nor describe, indicated in some manner that a telephone was inside a room directly ahead. Ford does not remember Allman identifying himself at this time. Ford stated that he did not have a press card at this time and did not identify himself to anyone until he left the building about one hour later." (CD354, p6)

Well, OK great work.

Well, not to stir up controversy...could LHO have simply taken the elevator down to the second floor, in the immediate post-JFKA? 

This does not mean he assassinated the President. Only that he was on the Sixth Floor, did something, and then took the elevator down. 

He met Baker by the Coke machine, and then went home (evidently to get his gun btw). 

[Pat Speer]

14 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, OK great work.

Well, not to stir up controversy...could LHO have simply taken the elevator down to the second floor, in the immediate post-JFKA? 

This does not mean he assassinated the President. Only that he was on the Sixth Floor, did something, and then took the elevator down. 

He met Baker by the Coke machine, and then went home (evidently to get his gun btw). 

I don't think that works. it took only 15 seconds or so for Baker and Truly to get from the elevators to the second floor staircase, where Baker spotted Oswald. That is an insufficient span of time for Oswald to come down on the elevator and walk quietly over to the break room. 

 

[Pete Mellor]

On 10/16/2022 at 4:44 AM, David Von Pein said:

I never once questioned Garner's eyesight. I'm questioning the idea that Dorothy Garner kept a continuous second-by-second vigil on the back staircase just after the assassination. Such a notion is ridiculous.

🤣 You're splitting hairs here David.  It was you that posted the ridiculous idea of Oswald dashing in and out of the 4th floor on his rushing downstairs while Garner, just feet away, and maybe looking the other way didn't notice.  Do you propose that the woman was deaf also?

While you commented on that aspect of the post, you did not have anything to say on the clear and obvious acts of the unethical Warren Commission lawyers as they manufactured this fairy tale of Oswald on the 6th floor.

[Benjamin Cole]

38 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't think that works. it took only 15 seconds or so for Baker and Truly to get from the elevators to the second floor staircase, where Baker spotted Oswald. That is an insufficient span of time for Oswald to come down on the elevator and walk quietly over to the break room. 

 

Not to belabor a point but...

Suppose the descending LHO got out on the second floor, momentarily stopping the elevators, while Truly and Baker were on the ground-floor looking at the elevators. 

The pair go up the stairs and encounter LHO....

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, absolutely. If they were dressed like cops or looked like cops no one would have noticed. I think it was Luke Mooney who said that two unidentified cops ran down the stairs as he ran up.

The question would then become: How did these two guys---dressed like cops!---get into the building and up to the sixth floor prior to the assassination without a single person noticing either one of these "cops"?

And remember: the sixth floor was well-populated that day, with extra workers up there laying the new floor (up until about 11:45 AM, that is).

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by David Von Pein