Interesting account of JFK affair, Gore Vidal

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Luke Nichter is a great historian. The above cited interview presciently posted by Matt Koch was conducted by a scholar at Stanford University and is illuminating to anyone who does not approach history with a pre-determined bias.

His resume looks impressive.  I do not know him.   
http://lukenichter.com/bio.htm

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:47 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Having said that, when I read Jim D. being interviewed, this is what I got from it:

      (Ignore #2 for now.)

1. The S. Vietnamese Military was planning a coup against Diem.

That's not how it happened.

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November, pgs 250-1

<quote on>

Ever since the military conflict [with the Viet Cong] had sharpened under the Kennedy administration, many American officials had envisioned a change in the Saigon government and made contacts in the Vietnamese army and administration with that in mind; different groups of Americans had different candidates.

But now the decision had been made to act through the generals.  </q>

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Sandy Larsen]

21 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That's not how it happened.

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November, pgs 250-1

<quote on>

Ever since the military conflict [with the Viet Cong] had sharpened under the Kennedy administration, many American officials had envisioned a change in the Saigon government and made contacts in the Vietnamese army and administration with that in mind; different groups of Americans had different candidates.

But now the decision had been made to act through the generals.  </q>

 

Hi Cliff,

I defer to you, Jim D., and others on this topic.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

In Newman's last book before the Popov book, he admitted that the evidence was ambiguous.  As I noted earlier, even Conein said they were getting differing messages.

But to me, this is all sound and fury. Signifyng nothing.

As John Newman told me: Diem's government was collapsing.  And even Nhu understood that.  The demands from Hanoi were not going to be accepted. 

That 's not what was reported, and not what the coup plotters thought.

"Today's World Report: Truce Moves Reported In Viet Nam," New York World-Telegram & Sun, (Friday), 25 October 1963, p.6:*

"LONDON - The government of South Vietnam and Communist North Viet Nam are apparently making exploratory contacts that could lead to a truce, diplomatic sources said. There was no official confirmation…Diplomatic sources said the current moves were believed to be aiming at some sort of truce arrangement with possible wider ramifications." <quote off>

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November, pg 251

<quote on, emphasis added>

There would be no coup until a reply was received from [President Kennedy], General Khiem told his CIA contact that September.  But he reassured the American that the generals had not given up their plotting.  They feared that Nhu might actually succeed in working out a reconciliation with the North.  A dangerous prospect, according to Conein, because “what the devil were they fighting for if the central government was negotiating behind their backs?” </q>

 

It appears John Newman and James DiEugenio share the ability to peer into alternate historical realities and tell us the outcome of negotiations cut off by bullets.  Maybe they can tell me how many home runs Barry Bonds would have hit if he hadn't started juicing.  That I'd like to know.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Kirk Gallaway]

I first brought this up with a more condensed version of the Nichter's find. I must say I'm not at impressed with the forum reaction, and the dodging of the content..

https://fullmeasure.news/news/shows/jfk-vietnam

 

Jim:About Nichter, take a look at the books he has written.Biographies of W.---Johnson, Nixon Lodge Then look at the subtitles.That should tell you something.

If you have any qualms as to  it's authenticity then say it.  But Jim just makes it into another Di Eugenio innuendo character assassination about the author, so he can skirt the content. 

at 3:46--LODGE telling  JFK: They're all going to be assassinated: her daughter , son in law, Nhu. and the President Diem, they're all going to be assassinated! I don't think there's any question about it.

JFK:" I assume that probably this fellow is in a impossible situation to save, I don't know if we'd be better off, if the alternative would be better-- maybe it will be. If so we well have to move in that direction".

 

Earlier there was Pauls reaction:.

Paul to Kirk:I assume you listened to the Lodge call! It sounds to me like Lodge talking the whole time, but the second part is ascribed to JFK. Is it though? His accent is usually unmistakable.

No Paul, I just submitted it without listening to it! Paul's first instinct is to presumptuously say it's a conspiracy, and they faked JFK's voice and somehow had Lodge, doing JFK's dialog?? I can't fathom such a reaction!

 

Ok, we know this dialog didn't end up being the final word on this. But the more you guys put up childish resistance to  a recording. Believe me, the more you need to hear it!

Believe your ears!

[James DiEugenio]

I don't read Varnell for reasons I have stated prior.  But when someone else posts him, well...

As more than one person has said, Ellen Hammer was quite bitter about what happened in the coup.  And this tinges her writing.

I would not rely on her as a sole source for what  happened. And certainly not as a definitive source.

In fact, that whole thing about a reconciliation with the north is a giveaway about her agenda. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

From Wikipedia, this is what I mean.

"Hammer was regarded by Pike as being "very loyal personally to Diem" and being "bitter" about his demise."

This colors her work to a large degree.

I mean in the face of what DIem and his brother did to that country, I mean whew.

I repeat, it was a mistake not to listen to Collins. DIem should have been removed then.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Cliff Varnell]

55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't read Varnell for reasons I have stated prior. 

The fireworks start on page 3.

55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But when someone else posts him, well...

As more than one person has said, Ellen Hammer was quite bitter about what happened in the coup.  And this tinges her writing.

Jim DiEugenio is super-loyal to JFK and bitter about any criticism of Kennedy -- or his own work.  This tinges his writing.

55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I would not rely on her as a sole source for what  happened.

I don't.

55 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

And certainly not as a definitive source.

In fact, that whole thing about a reconciliation with the north is a giveaway about her agenda. 

Thanks to Karl Kinaski for the following (emphasis added)

Quote: Merry, Robert. TAKING ON THE WORLD: JOSEPH AND STEWART ALSOP - GUARDIANS OF THE AMERICAN CENTURY

The day after, on August 22, there arrived in Saigon the new U.S. ambassador, Joe Alsop’s lifelong friend, Henry Cabot Lodge. By the time Joe reached Vietnam in mid-September 1963 for ten days of reporting, Lodge had concluded that Diem must go. At the ambassador’s invitation, Joe stayed at the embassy, and there he had ample opportunity to hear Lodge decry the misrule of Diem and his brother. Indeed, Lodge already had set in motion a U.S. plan to sanction a coup by the South Vietnamese military. On two successive days Joe spent several hours in conversation with Nhu and Diem at their lush offices at the Palais Gia Long. He had become well acquainted with the pair during his many visits to Saigon, and he had felt a strong sense of confidence in their patriotism and judgment. Based on his conversations with Lodge, he was prepared to revise his opinion, but he was not prepared for what he encountered. He first visited Nhu in his long, high-ceilinged office lined with books and mementos and overlooking the palace gardens. The state councillor, as Nhu was called, motioned Joe to a chair near his cluttered desk and then, pacing back and forth along the length of the office and lighting cigarets in quick succession, commenced a long tirade against Saigon’s American press corps, the American government, his own military, and his own brother. He proclaimed himself to be the world’s greatest living expert on guerrilla warfare, but said he couldn’t bring his brilliance to bear because he was obstructed at every turn by the obstinate Americans and by his brother. Then Nhu announced that he had been involved in secret negotiations with Hanoi, conducted through the French ambassador, Roger Lalouette. He said he expected to reach a settlement with the communist regime soon, and that he would bring his brother along on any accommodation he found acceptable. When Joe asked what he would do if the communists later reneged on their agreement, as they had done so often in the past, the councillor dismissed the question as unimportant. He had only to go into the countryside and wave a handkerchief, he boasted, and a million men would spring to arms at his back. He was, after all, the world’s greatest living guerrilla expert. As Joe put it years later, “Nhu had gone stark, raving mad.” 

The next day Joe went back to Gia Long for lunch with President Diem, who greeted him cordially. Joe soon discovered that Diem’s thinking echoed Nhu’s. Diem repeated much of what his brother had said the previous day in almost identical terms, and he seemed just as impervious to reason.

</q>

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

From Wikipedia, this is what I mean.

"Hammer was regarded by Pike as being "very loyal personally to Diem" and being "bitter" about his demise."

This colors her work to a large degree.

I mean in the face of what DIem and his brother did to that country, I mean whew.

I repeat, it was a mistake not to listen to Collins. DIem should have been removed then.

 

 

Americans always know better about who should rule other countries.

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Maybe they can tell me how many home runs Barry Bonds would have hit if he hadn't started juicing.  That I'd like to know.

 

One less than his father. 

[Cliff Varnell]

16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

One less than his father. 

Bobby Bonds!  He hit 332.  I saw the first one with my own eyes, cold night at the 'Stick in late June '68 against the Dodgers, Bonds' first game in the majors, Ray Sadeki on the mound for the G-men (one of the few games he won for the Giants -- the guy we traded Orlando Cepeda for).  Bases loaded in Bonds' second AB bam! way over the chain link fence in left.  Next AB he came up with the bases loaded again and walked.  Giants won 9 - 2...

Thanks Pat, I needed that.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Joe Bauer]

10 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Bobby Bonds!  He hit 332.  I saw the first one with my own eyes, cold night at the 'Stick in late June '68 against the Dodgers, Bonds' first game in the majors, Ray Sadeki on the mound for the G-men (one of the few games he won for the Giants -- the guy we traded Orlando Cepeda for).  Bases loaded in Bonds' second AB bam! way over the chain link fence in left.  Next AB he came up with the bases loaded again and walked.  Giants won 9 - 2...

Thanks Pat, I needed that.

Big G man fan from the 60's and 70's here.

My first time seeing the Giants at the stick, they scored 15 runs....and LOST!

The Padres beat them 16 to 15.

The Giants fired their manager right after the game. Clyde King Or Charlie Fox.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't read Varnell for reasons I have stated prior. 

And yet around the 32 minute mark of his 2hr doc Jim DiEugenio acknowledges JFK had a shallow back wound at T3.

Looks like my 24 years of T-3 shaming the Experts sank in.

[James DiEugenio]

People forget what a great player Bobby Bonds was.

In one All Star game in which he played well, a guy on the AL team said, "We don't have anyone like that in our league."

He was a very rare combination of speed and power.

Edited November 28, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Joe Bauer]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

People forget what a great player Bobby Bonds was.

In one All Star game in which he played well, a guy on the AL team said, "We don't have anyone like that in our league."

He was a very rare combination of speed and power.

Bobby Bonds was a great player...without steroids.

If he had juiced himself like his son he would have doubled his home run output.

Barry Bonds godfather is Willie Mays.

At one point the Giants had all these power hitters on the same team at the same time:

Willie Mays

Willie McCovey

Bobby Bonds

Jimmy Ray Hart