Interesting account of JFK affair, Gore Vidal

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/19/2022 at 9:18 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Like Ron I suspect Lodge. But I’m certain that Cliff has studied Diem more than I.

I've spoken to an eye-witness to the coup.

On 11/19/2022 at 9:18 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Does he think Jfk was killed as payback for Diem’s murder?

I suspect not.  I think the plot was to remove the 3 leaders who stood in the way of a SEAsia-to-Havana heroin pipeline: Diem, Kennedy and Castro.  I think Fidel worked out an accommodation and they left him alone after that.

On 11/19/2022 at 9:18 PM, Paul Brancato said:

 

I recall him suggesting that assassins from that Asian milieu, CIA or military covert operatives, were part of the hit team in Dealey Plaza.

Indeed.

May 8, 1963. Hue, South Vietnam.  In a beef over the flying of religious flags, Buddhist protesters crowded around a radio station when two explosions killed eight people.  The Catholic Diem regime blamed the Viet Cong; the Buddhists blamed Diem.

JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglass, pg 130-1

<quote on, emphasis added>

Dr. Le Khac Quyen, the hospital director at Hue, said after examining the victim's bodies that he had never seen such injuries. The bodies had been decapitated. He found no metal in the corpses, only holes. There were no wounds below the chest. In his official finding, Dr. Quyen ruled that "the death of the people was caused by an explosion which took place in mid-air," blowing off their heads and mutilating their bodies...

...In May 1963, Diem's younger brother, Ngo Dinh Can, who ruled Hue, thought from the very beginning that the Viet Cong had nothing to do with the explosions at the radio station.   According to an investigation carried out by the Catholic newspaper, Hoa Binh, Ngo Dinh Can and his advisers were "convinced the explosions had to be the work of an American agent who wanted to make trouble for Diem." In 1970 Hoa Binh located such a man, a Captain Scott, who in later years became a U.S. military adviser in the Mekong Delta. Scott had come to Hue from Da Nang on May 7, 1963. He admitted he was the American agent responsible for the bombing at the radio station the next day. He said he used "an explosive that was still secret and known only to certain people at the Central Intelligence Agency, a charge no larger than a matchbox with a timing device."
<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA in 1978:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's 1978 sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on, emphasis added>

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely....Following discussion  among the doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and   with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

 <quote off>

The explosions in Hue and the back and throat wounds in JFK left no metal, no evidence of that which caused the wound.

JFK had shallow wounds in soft tissue in his back and throat.  6.5mm FMJ doesn't leave that kind of wound.  What conventional weaponry does?

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Joseph McBride]

Kennedy was going to fire Lodge when he

came to Washington, but the assassination

interfered with that plan, and Lodge instead

participated in the November 24 meeting

with LBJ et al that secretly reversed the course of

American involvement in the Vietnam War

from deescalation to extensive escalation.

[Paul Brancato]

24 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

Kennedy was going to fire Lodge when he

came to Washington, but the assassination

interfered with that plan, and Lodge instead

participated in the November 24 meeting

with LBJ et al that secretly reversed the course of

American involvement in the Vietnam War

from deescalation to extensive escalation.

I thought I remembered that. Do you rcall the source?

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I've spoken to an eye-witness to the coup.

I suspect not.  I think the plot was to remove the 3 leaders who stood in the way of a SEAsia-to-Havana heroin pipeline: Diem, Kennedy and Castro.  I think Fidel worked out an accommodation and they left him alone after that.

Indeed.

May 8, 1963. Hue, South Vietnam.  In a beef over the flying of religious flags, Buddhist protesters crowded around a radio station when two explosions killed eight people.  The Catholic Diem regime blamed the Viet Cong; the Buddhists blamed Diem.

JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglass, pg 130-1

<quote on, emphasis added>

Dr. Le Khac Quyen, the hospital director at Hue, said after examining the victim's bodies that he had never seen such injuries. The bodies had been decapitated. He found no metal in the corpses, only holes. There were no wounds below the chest. In his official finding, Dr. Quyen ruled that "the death of the people was caused by an explosion which took place in mid-air," blowing off their heads and mutilating their bodies...

...In May 1963, Diem's younger brother, Ngo Dinh Can, who ruled Hue, thought from the very beginning that the Viet Cong had nothing to do with the explosions at the radio station.   According to an investigation carried out by the Catholic newspaper, Hoa Binh, Ngo Dinh Can and his advisers were "convinced the explosions had to be the work of an American agent who wanted to make trouble for Diem." In 1970 Hoa Binh located such a man, a Captain Scott, who in later years became a U.S. military adviser in the Mekong Delta. Scott had come to Hue from Da Nang on May 7, 1963. He admitted he was the American agent responsible for the bombing at the radio station the next day. He said he used "an explosive that was still secret and known only to certain people at the Central Intelligence Agency, a charge no larger than a matchbox with a timing device."
<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA in 1978:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic] bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's 1978 sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on, emphasis added>

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely....Following discussion  among the doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and   with Agent Chuch [sic] Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

 <quote off>

The explosions in Hue and the back and throat wounds in JFK left no metal, no evidence of that which caused the wound.

JFK had shallow wounds in soft tissue in his back and throat.  6.5mm FMJ doesn't leave that kind of wound.  What conventional weaponry does?

 

 

 

Cliff - If I understand you, you’re implying that some high tech US military weapon was used on Nov 22, something I too think is very likely. 
I think we went over some of this previously, but I haven’t seen anything about Castro’s Cuba being part of a heroin operation.

[James DiEugenio]

1 hour ago, Joseph McBride said:

Kennedy was going to fire Lodge when he

came to Washington, but the assassination

interfered with that plan, and Lodge instead

participated in the November 24 meeting

with LBJ et al that secretly reversed the course of

American involvement in the Vietnam War

from deescalation to extensive escalation.

This is from the Douglass book.

In and of itself it indicates that a change was taking place.

And this was the first step.

Edited November 27, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Douglas Caddy]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:25 AM, Matthew Koch said:

Here's what the author has to say, it doesn't sound to me like a smoking gun. 

 

I have known Professor Luke Nichter for ten years and can affirm that he is fastidiously accurate in his research and writings. This comes through clearly in this important interview. Both Professor Nichter and Professor Douglas Brinkley autographed for me their highly acclaimed book, The Nixon Tapes: 1971 -1972. Luke wrote on the book's title page, "For Doug. Enjoy! Thanks for your help. Best, /s/ 7/5/2016.

You will learn a lot from listening to this interview.

[Joe Bauer]

18 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

I have known Professor Luke Nichter for ten years and can affirm that he is fastidiously accurate in his research and writings. This comes through clearly in this important interview. Both Professor Nichter and Professor Douglas Brinkley autographed for me their highly acclaimed book, The Nixon Tapes: 1971 -1972. Luke wrote on the book's title page, "For Doug. Enjoy! Thanks for your help. Best, /s/ 7/5/2016.

You will learn a lot from listening to this interview.

Thought provoking interview.

[Matthew Koch]

6 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

I have known Professor Luke Nichter for ten years and can affirm that he is fastidiously accurate in his research and writings. This comes through clearly in this important interview. Both Professor Nichter and Professor Douglas Brinkley autographed for me their highly acclaimed book, The Nixon Tapes: 1971 -1972. Luke wrote on the book's title page, "For Doug. Enjoy! Thanks for your help. Best, /s/ 7/5/2016.

You will learn a lot from listening to this interview.

Douglas, I cited the interview for Kirk earlier. 

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:24 PM, James DiEugenio said:

And as Jim Douglass points out, the so called negotiations Nhu had with Hanoi were going nowhere since they demanded that Saigon remove all American advisors.  

Didn't Kennedy want to remove all US advisors?

On 11/23/2022 at 6:24 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Diem was going to be overthrown. 

Factually incorrect, borderline academic malpractice.

The CIA incited the "Buddhist crisis" with two deadly explosions at a Buddhist protest in Hue, May 8, 1963.

JFK and the Unspeakable, James Douglass, pg 130-1

<quote on, emphasis added>

Dr. Le Khac Quyen, the hospital director at Hue, said after examining the victim's bodies that he had never seen such injuries. The bodies had been decapitated. He found no metal in the corpses, only holes. There were no wounds below the chest. In his official finding, Dr. Quyen ruled that "the death of the people was caused by an explosion which took place in mid-air," blowing off their heads and mutilating their bodies...

...In May 1963, Diem's younger brother, Ngo Dinh Can, who ruled Hue, thought from the very beginning that the Viet Cong had nothing to do with the explosions at the radio station.   According to an investigation carried out by the Catholic newspaper, Hoa Binh, Ngo Dinh Can and his advisers were "convinced the explosions had to be the work of an American agent who wanted to make trouble for Diem." In 1970 Hoa Binh located such a man, a Captain Scott, who in later years became a U.S. military adviser in the Mekong Delta. Scott had come to Hue from Da Nang on May 7, 1963. He admitted he was the American agent responsible for the bombing at the radio station the next day. He said he used "an explosive that was still secret and known only to certain people at the Central Intelligence Agency, a charge no larger than a matchbox with a timing device."
<quote off>

The CIA stoked the "crisis."

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November, pg 156:

<quote on, emphasis in the original>

When [Diem and Nhu] had first claimed that Americans were active behind the scenes in the agitation spreading in Saigon, they had sounded paranoid – a favorite word among Americans for Diem and Nhu that summer.  But who could disbelieve [David] Halberstam, with his excellent sources in the Central Intelligence Agency, when he reported that the CIA had been openly sending its agents into the pagodas and making daily contact with Buddhist priests and “other participants in this crisis”?  These agents were acting under orders – and they did not go to the pagodas to discuss the finer points of Buddhism.

<quote off>

Roger Hilsman bragged about it:

Buddhists bit – tasted a little bit of political blood.  Bit harder – tasted more political blood -- and then finally began to use American television.  None of them spoke English but their signs were all in English.

By the end of October the phony crisis petered out.

Ellen J. Hammer, A Death in November, pg 278:

<quote on, emphasis added>

On Thursday, October 31, General Don went to Gia Long Palace and talked with both Diem and Nhu.  He inquired about the petition he and General Dinh had given Diem in September, asking for cabinet posts and policy changes.  He was told that since everything had resumed to normal there was no need for changes…

General Don was busy on Thursday with last-minute preparations for the coming action.  That was the day [activist professor] Buu-Hoi went with two Buddhist monks to see Ngo Dinh Nhu.  They asked him to intervene with Diem to set free “all Buddhist dignitaries, laymen and students still under detention,” and Nhu “promised to obtain from the president a favorable answer to this request.”

The news was announced in an official press release.  It would be a banner headline on the front page of the Times of Vietnam the next day.

This was awkward news for the generals.  The Buddhist issue, which had been slipping away ever since the arrival of the mission from the United Nations [Oct. 24], seemed to be disappearing before their eyes, and a convenient excuse for their coup with it.

<quote off> 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Cliff Varnell

[Kirk Gallaway]

So Cliff, Do you think JFK was aware of this in May  1963?, or  is it worse if he wasn't?

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

So Cliff, Do you think JFK was aware of this in May  1963?, or  is it worse if he wasn't?

He swallowed the “Buddhist Crisis” narrative whole.  He relied on advisers who had their own agenda, like Averell Harriman and Roger Hilsman.

[James DiEugenio]

Matt is being  accurate.

In Newman's last book before the Popov book, he admitted that the evidence was ambiguous.  As I noted earlier, even Conein said they were getting differing messages.

But to me, this is all sound and fury. Signifyng nothing.

As John Newman told me: Diem's government was collapsing.  And even Nhu understood that.  The demands from Hanoi were not going to be accepted.  Which is why Nhu created a fake coup. The protests in the countryside had now spread into the urban areas due to the Buddhist uprising.  Nhu's raids on the pagodas, which he tried to say were not really his idea--which they were--had sealed the deal.  To me, this all proved that the Collins mission back in the fifties was correct. Foster Dulles had made a  bad choice in Diem.  And once that was made, it was not really correctable.  Because of the influence of Nhu and his wife. 

The immolations in Saigon horrified not just JFK, but even Dean Rusk.  In one way you can say that what happened in november was the fulfillment of what the cabal in the State Dept. wanted three months earlier.

 

[James DiEugenio]

About Nichter, take a look at the books he has written.

Biographies of

W

Johnson

Nixon

Lodge

Then look at the subtitles.

That should tell you something.

[Douglas Caddy]

Luke Nichter is a great historian. The above cited interview presciently posted by Matt Koch was conducted by a scholar at Stanford University and is illuminating to anyone who does not approach history with a pre-determined bias.

[Joe Bauer]

Was Diem and his family involved with the drug trade? 

Seems some American picks for puppet government leadership positions were incredibly corrupt.

Marcos acquired BILLIONS siphoning America aid monies intended for Filippino humanitarian programs, yes?

Swiss bank accounts. 5,000 pairs of shoes for Imelda? Expensive gifts given to American actor George Hamilton?

Marcos was certainly allowed to stay in power a long time despite his incredible corruption. He took care of political rival Benigno Aquino Jr. Post-Haste.

Ruthless guy.