A Response To DiEugenio's "Dale Myers and his World of Illusion"

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Bob.

And that was a really neat reply to Brown. Think he has read Moby Dick?

 

Haha probably working on it... It's in there if you read between the lines hahaha!

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Second, Lad Holan is emphatic in his memory of that day, Nov 22, and that he and his mother were living at 113 S. Patton on that day--not an easy thing to get wrong in memory I would think, and no reason for him to be lying about it. Third, Myers found a photo of Doris Holan's car parked on S. Patton directly in front of the 113 S. Patton address on Nov 22, 1963--the logical reason it would be parked there is because that is where she was living on the day of that photo, not on 10th.

I’m gonna have to disagree with you there. According to Myers, Holan originally remembered the move occurring after the assassination and only changed his mind after speaking to Myers. Also, Myers sticks in his footnote that other family members could not corroborate Lad’s (second) opinion, but he doesn’t share the recollections of those family members on the date of the move. Myers obviously asked them, so what did they say? Did they only corroborate Lad’s original story? We don’t know. 

If I recall, the only evidence that the car in the photo is Doris Holan’s is, once again, Lad’s Holan’s 58 year-old memory. A lot of cars look the same. Heck, a lot of cars are the same. I think it’s safe to say that Holan’s identification of the car doesn’t really prove anything. 

If this were the other way around, and Lad Holan’s 58-year old shifting memory was suggestive of Oswald’s innocence, Myers would call anyone who believed him a lunatic and would scrutinize every word of his statements to discredit him. Any contradictory evidence, like the statements of his relatives, would be front and center instead of buried and implied in a footnote - and anyone who tried to challenge that evidence would be subject to ridicule. 

I’m not very familiar with Doris Holan’s story, and if her statements do suggest a vantage point of 113 S. Patton that is definitely worth considering. I just don’t think we can rely strictly on the 58-year old memory of a man who apparently remembered living on 10th St. on the day of the assassination until he was interviewed by Dale Myers in 2021, especially when we know that his family couldn’t corroborate him but we have no idea what they actually said. At the very least, to say that this type of evidence is enough to declare the Holan’s residency date an established fact seems like a bit of a stretch, IMO. 

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m gonna have to disagree with you there. According to Myers, Holan originally remembered the move occurring after the assassination and only changed his mind after speaking to Myers. Also, Myers sticks in his footnote that other family members could not corroborate Lad’s (second) opinion, but he doesn’t share the recollections of those family members on the date of the move. Myers obviously asked them, so what did they say? Did they only corroborate Lad’s original story? We don’t know. 

I can understand getting things out of relative sequence in memory but not knowing where one lived on the day of the Tippit killing, especially when Lad Holan has such detailed memories of that day. 

That the family was living at S. Patton by mid-Dec 1963 is hard fact from the letter provided by a sister. It is an unnamed family member, not Lad, in Myers' footnote 31, which is the source of the Sept 1963 time of the move to Patton to which you refer. Since Myers does not attribute that to Lad which he would have if it had been Lad, I believe you are arguing with the wrong family member on that detail, which in any case does not go to the issue of the family's address on Nov 22, about three weeks before they are definitely attested on S. Patton from the postmarked letter. When Myers says other family members do not confirm the Sept. date of the move to S. Patton, that is the unnamed family member's memory of Sept 1963 for the move. "Do not confirm" I do not assume means more than "I don't remember, can't confirm that". If it does mean someone else--such as Lad--said "I don't think it happened in September", it is of no consequence. Nov 22, three weeks before the mid-Dec certain location of the family at the S. Patton address, is all that matters.

So it is not other family members failing to confirm Lad, but (possibly) Lad failing to confirm a different family member, maybe the sister. And when you say Myers does not share the recollections of others that assumes there are recollections but you don't know that. Failure to confirm can mean no recollection at all = failure to confirm. Also, Doris Holan is dead and Myers reports that his attempts to make contact with Holan Jr., Lad's younger brother, were futile. There is mention of the sister but not by name (I don't think) suggesting she wants to retain some privacy which Myers may be respecting with the "unnamed family member" attribution, not Lad, as the source of the Sept 63. In short I see nothing in the Myers article that has any family member critical of or failing to confirm Lad Holan's memory or story concerning Nov 22. 

So in the end Lad Holan erred in the relative sequence of when the family lived on 10th, but that the family lived on S. Patton in mid-Dec 1963 is hard fact and Myers found evidence their time on 10th St. predated rather than postdated the time at S. Patton. Lad Holan is absolutely certain he knows where he lived on Nov 22 according to Myers and I believe it. The sister is the one who produced the Dec 63 letter with the S. Patton address, and I believe the sister is the likely source of the Sept 63 estimate as the move date to S. Patton. So the sister also believes they lived on S. Patton on Nov 22, in addition to Lad. And Lad and the sister appear to be the two surviving family members with whom Myers was able to establish contact, since Holan Jr. isn't talking, and both of them say S. Patton in Nov 63, and no family member says otherwise. 

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I can understand getting things out of relative sequence in memory but not knowing where one lived on the day of the Tippit killing, especially when Lad Holan has such detailed memories of that day. 

That the family was living at S. Patton by mid-Dec 1963 is hard fact from the letter provided by a sister. It is an unnamed family member, not Lad, in Myers' footnote 31, which is the source of the Sept 1963 time of the move to Patton to which you refer. Since Myers does not attribute that to Lad which he would have if it had been Lad, I believe you are arguing with the wrong family member on that detail, which in any case does not go to the issue of the family's address on Nov 22, about three weeks before they are definitely attested on S. Patton from the postmarked letter. When Myers says other family members do not confirm the Sept. date of the move to S. Patton, that is the unnamed family member's memory of Sept 1963 for the move. "Do not confirm" I do not assume means more than "I don't remember, can't confirm that". If it does mean someone else--such as Lad--said "I don't think it happened in September", it is of no consequence. Nov 22, three weeks before the mid-Dec certain location of the family at the S. Patton address, is all that matters.

So it is not other family members failing to confirm Lad, but (possibly) Lad failing to confirm a different family member, maybe the sister. And when you say Myers does not share the recollections of others that assumes there are recollections but you don't know that. Failure to confirm can mean no recollection at all = failure to confirm. Also, Doris Holan is dead and Myers reports that his attempts to make contact with Holan Jr., Lad's younger brother, were futile. There is mention of the sister but not by name (I don't think) suggesting she wants to retain some privacy which Myers may be respecting with the "unnamed family member" attribution, not Lad, as the source of the Sept 63. In short I see nothing in the Myers article that has any family member critical of or failing to confirm Lad Holan's memory or story concerning Nov 22. 

So in the end Lad Holan erred in the relative sequence of when the family lived on 10th, but that the family lived on S. Patton in mid-Dec 1963 is hard fact and Myers found evidence their time on 10th St. predated rather than postdated the time at S. Patton. Lad Holan is absolutely certain he knows where he lived on Nov 22 according to Myers and I believe it. The sister is the one who produced the Dec 63 letter with the S. Patton address, and I believe the sister is the likely source of the Sept 63 estimate as the move date to S. Patton. So the sister also believes they lived on S. Patton on Nov 22, in addition to Lad. And Lad and the sister appear to be the two surviving family members with whom Myers was able to establish contact, since Holan Jr. isn't talking, and both of them say S. Patton in Nov 63, and no family member says otherwise. 

The footnote isn’t exactly crystal clear. Footnote 31 covers only one sentence:

By September 1963, the Holan family moved to their second residence in central Oak Cliff – an apartment in a two-story, red brick building at 113 S. Patton Avenue, located adjacent to the alley between E. Tenth Street and E. Jefferson Boulevard. [31]

[31] Ibid., p.4 [NOTE: According to one family member, the Holan family was living at 113 ½ S. Patton by September, 1963, although the exact date could not be confirmed by other family members.]

The reference is to the 2021 interview with Lad Holan. I’m not sure what Lad contributed to that sentence on p.4 of his interview, but Myers sure makes it sound like he talked to at least three additional family members. Another possibility would be that Lad talked to his family and relayed the info to Myers in the interview. We don’t have the interview transcript so we can’t check. 

If Myers talked to these people himself, he undoubtedly would have asked them which apartment they remembered Doris living in on the day of the assassination, or if they’d been told anything by relatives about when the move occurred, etc. What did they actually say? We know that Myers at least talked to the sister. He references the letter obtained from her so if she was the source of the September date why not just say so? If Myers really had corroboration from a Holan family member that the move occurred prior to the assassination, you’d think that he’d make that clear to his readers. If the information from the family came from Lad Holan, we need the exact quote from the interview to evaluate its credibility.

The letter is clear and convincing evidence that the move occurred by mid-December, but that does not prove that Holans lived at 113 S. Patton on Nov. 22nd. They could have had a lease expire at the end of November, or even on Jan. 1st and just moved out a bit early. The assassination could have even been a catalyst, and Doris decided to move down the street because she didn’t want to be overlooking such a notorious murder scene. 

Basically, we don’t have enough information to really say that this is settled history, IMO. It’s very possible that Myers is correct, but the state of the evidence is such that there’s still a very real probability that the Holans lived on 10th St. on the day of the assassination. I’d love to see concrete proof that establishes the date of the move, but we just don’t have it right now. 

I don’t really care either way and am not even very familiar with this story - I’m just holding Myers to the same standard of evidence he holds others. 

[Michael Griffith]

17 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

I have spoken to Brownlow in person perhaps a half dozen times now.  I don't believe 80% of what he says.  Pulte, aligning himself with Brownlow, has zero credibility with me.

Well, I don't know. I don't know them and I don't know you. A lot of people would say that your aligning yourself with Dale Myers damages your credibility, given the errors and omissions that have been documented in Myers' writings.

I've never used Holan's account in any of my writings on the Tippit case. The most I've ever been willing to say about her story is that it "may" be valid, but I have not considered it to be strong enough to cite in my writings. Now that you've convinced me that her apartment had no line of sight to the shooting scene, I cannot imagine even considering using her account as evidence.

I think it's possible that she may have heard elements of her account from other people in the neighborhood or from her son, or both. I don't know. This is just speculation. Or, perhaps Brownlow fabricated her story and falsely attributed it to her.

I'd be curious to know if Brownlow recorded any of his discussions with Holan. 

[Bill Brown]

16 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Ok. You don't know then. That's fine you could have said that to begin with. YOU are making an assertion based on someone else's work. Not me. If I posted an assertion based on someone else's writing, I would expect to have to defend that and not tell somebody "Go read a book" to prove your point. It states that these are WELL KNOWN, yet you can't tell me what they are and instead are telling me to go find them. If they are well known, why don't you tell me what they are?

Here's a guess. You are posting the comment referring to his work but really don't know whether it's valid or not. You believe him and don't believe Harris' rebuttal who is at least as qualified as you to refute Myer's assertion. You further deny the rebuttal of David Heally, who I can assure you is qualified to render an opinion and has, I believe, studied Myer's animation in depth. I also have many qualifications to render at least a decent opinion on it but haven't studied the animation in such detail to fairly assess his specific findings.

I can say the statement "single bullet fact" is tenuous for the simple reason that I've spent many years doing such animations and recreations (although not in the criminal realm to any significant degree) and know such recreations are subject to many potential errors. I think Dale has refused to share the source files for the animation (and even sued somebody using the footage for criticism??) and doubt he'd be very welcoming to me if I posed any questions to him, whether I was fair or not.

You originally posted Dale's response to Robert Harris' rebuttal by copying and pasting someone else's work and then wiping your hands of it. I could post a copy of Moby Dick, say that Melville claimed Oswald was innocent and respond to objections by saying go read the book. 

I'm being ridiculous to illustrate a point. Regurgitating somebody else's work to support your argument is fine, but if you don't even know the basics of his assertions and yet support them in the face of expert contrary opinions it sounds a lot like an article of faith on your part. Not an objective criticism.

That's a fact.

Just in case you don't believe me, here's a link to Moby Dick. Check it out:

The Project Gutenberg eBook of Moby Dick; Or the Whale, by Herman Melville

 

Ok. You don't know then.

 

No.  I didn't say that.  This is a question for Myers, not me and (again) I'm not going to speak for him.  If you lack the balls to ask him yourself, then so be it.

 

[Bill Brown]

15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Tom, I respect your intelligent cross-examination on the basis of evidence, but here is what convinced me Myers got that right about the Holans' address at 113 S.  Patton on Nov 22, 1963. It does not matter whether they moved there in September or not, only whether they were there on Nov. 22. First, the letter proves they were at 113 S. Patton only a month later in December. Second, Lad Holan is emphatic in his memory of that day, Nov 22, and that he and his mother were living at 113 S. Patton on that day--not an easy thing to get wrong in memory I would think, and no reason for him to be lying about it. Third, Myers found a photo of Doris Holan's car parked on S. Patton directly in front of the 113 S. Patton address on Nov 22, 1963--the logical reason it would be parked there is because that is where she was living on the day of that photo, not on 10th. And fourth, no counterevidence disputing that the Holans lived on 113 S. Patton on Nov 22. Those four points are sufficient for me to consider that point established, a fact established.

I believe Doris Holan's story, as garbled as it is via the Pulte/Brownlow hearsay retelling, is not to be wholly dismissed. Looked at in terms of her true address, 113 S. Patton, there is a level at which the Doris Holan story is credible on three points: first, the part where she claims "Oswald" (the gunman) ran under her apartment window--that fits 113 S. Patton. Second, nobody else seems to see this but me but it is just plain to me Doris Holan witnessed and told a version of the Callaway-gunman shouting/armwaving interaction at each other as they went opposite directions on Patton, with the big 200 pound man in the "driveway" being Callaway in the alley next to Callaway's car lot as Doris Holan looked east from 113 S. Patton. And third, I think it is plausible that she saw a police car leaving in that alley looking east from 113 S. Patton. 

Myers relocates the Holan address on Nov 22 correctly, and uses that to demolish the Doris Holan story mediated via Pulte/Brownlow in its mistaken setting from the 10th St. vantage point. A lot of people want to keep that 10th St. vantage-point story, don't like Myers, and reason therefore Myers has this Doris Holan address correction wrong. No, he got the Doris Holan address right. And--which nobody seems to be noticing--the correct address of Doris Holan opens up a reinterpretation of a garbled but real hearsay story of this witness on S. Patton not previously appreciated (because of the error in the address, and the problems with transmission and late appearance of the hearsay story). 

But never mind the interpretation issue. The starting point is to get the address right, and on the 113 S. Patton Holan address on Nov 22, Myers clearly got that right. I don't see any question on that. 

 

Second, nobody else seems to see this but me but it is just plain to me Doris Holan witnessed and told a version of the Callaway-gunman shouting/armwaving interaction at each other as they went opposite directions on Patton, with the big 200 pound man in the "driveway" being Callaway in the alley next to Callaway's car lot as Doris Holan looked east from 113 S. Patton.

 

Greg,

 

Callaway wasn't in the alley or even near it when Oswald made his way down Patton.  Guinyard... Yes.  Callaway... No.

 

In the image below (at the time Oswald made his trek down the west side of Patton)...

Blue = Tippit's patrol car

Brown = Holan apartment

Yellow = Sam Guinyard

Red = Ted Callaway

 

[James DiEugenio]

And if an appendage of Mr Single Bullet Fact says the guy is not credible, then voila, the guy is not credible right?

After all that is a fact.

[Bill Brown]

9 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

And if an appendage of Mr Single Bullet Fact says the guy is not credible, then voila, the guy is not credible right?

After all that is a fact.

 

Now that you're finally learning something, why stop there?  Shouldn't you run off and study up on Lee's letter to his brother Robert?

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Ok. You don't know then.

 

No.  I didn't say that.  This is a question for Myers, not me and (again) I'm not going to speak for him.  If you lack the balls to ask him yourself, then so be it.

 

Why wouldn't you? You post all kinds of links to his site and quote him and then say you don't speak for him?

HAHAHA! What a joke! Who has no balls in this discussion?

I've asked a very simple, non-confrontational question about assumptions Dale has made that YOU are supporting and posting about WELL KNOWN facts, and you can't even admit you don't know? I don't expect you to be an expert, just say if you don't know. AND YOU CAN"T! Hahaha!

Let me know when your gonads drop hahaha!

 

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Another flare - this is really good!

 

[James DiEugenio]

I have to say the above is getting a little ridiculous.

Bob is showing a lot of patience.

[Bill Brown]

17 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Why wouldn't you? You post all kinds of links to his site and quote him and then say you don't speak for him?

HAHAHA! What a joke! Who has no balls in this discussion?

I've asked a very simple, non-confrontational question about assumptions Dale has made that YOU are supporting and posting about WELL KNOWN facts, and you can't even admit you don't know? I don't expect you to be an expert, just say if you don't know. AND YOU CAN"T! Hahaha!

Let me know when your gonads drop hahaha!

 

 

 

You must be confused.  Let me help.

 

You're under the mistaken impression that posting links to the blog of another person is the same as speaking for that person.  I'm not sure why you think so but you're wrong, nonetheless.

 

You're asking me to speak for him and I won't do that to another person, ever.

 

If you sincerely want to know, ask Myers.  It's very easy to do.  I've already told you this.

 

Anything more and you're just trolling.  Typical.

 

[Bill Brown]

15 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I have to say the above is getting a little ridiculous.

Bob is showing a lot of patience.

 

Speaking of trolling.

 

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

You must be confused.  Let me help.

 

Not confused. You have not clue one of what he or I am talking about.

Regards.

[Joseph McBride]

Such a tiresome, specious lot of schoolyard-level attacks.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Joseph McBride