Asking the obvious

[Guest]

On 12/18/2022 at 2:36 PM, Chris Barnard said:

Let me shed some light on my own experience. I’ve seen serious law breaks buried time and time again, which were in the public interest, by people in the CEO and FD positions in the finance industry at multinational companies. There was no written record of this and you always hit bonus and were retained coincidentally. The higher you go up the chain, Lance, the more you’ll encounter it. Nobody throws the baby out with the bathwater. The gravy train keeps running.
 

I would draw an easy parallel with Prouty explaining how the CIA would borrow arms and munitions from the military. Colonels and generals would never ask where or how the arms would be used. Only that they were replaced. Because they didn’t want to be complicit. 
 

Is it really difficult for you to comprehend the implications of the CIA murdering the president? Or, even seeming to have been involved? Or, even further Operation Northwoods style operations being uncovered? The repercussions to the reputation of the government security apparatus are huge. Its easy peasy to comprehend. They’ll protect the reputation of “the company” at all costs and pass the buck at any costs. That’s what we have seen.
 

I get that on a lower level that you’d run to your manager with anything suspect as an honest guy. It isn’t the way things work near the summit of hierarchies. There is more at stake. 

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

You are assuming a commonality of interest and a similar lack of ethical compass on the part of many, many highly distinguished public officials representing a wide diversity of political allegiances and perspectives, some of whom despised their predecessors, over a period of nearly six decades, all to protect the CIA from the JFKA Bombshell you hypothesize exists despite zero actual evidence. Sorry, it just ... makes ... no ... sense.

It is not assumption, Lance; we are talking about human nature, self preservation, companies or organisations protecting their status. Its very predictable, and the higher you rise, the more commonplace it is. 

Think about the pathology of it, and simulate the head of the CIA throwing predecessors to the wolves. What are the consequences, Lance? ie for the individual and their future employment and earning potential, or for a government institution that has broken every ideal that the public stand for. Government are always trying maintain power and trust, not diminish it. 

You are saying it makes no sense to you but, does it make sense that an organisation such as the CIA, which has a very morally questionable past (understatement), is going to appoint idealists with a coviction to morality and truth? That’s a paradox. As morally sound people don’t like ordering assassinations, signing off on mind control experiments or organising coup d’etats in vulnerable developing world countries. None of that is speculation, its a matter of public record. 
 

[Lori Spencer]

#AbolishTheCIA has been trending on Twitter since Tucker’s 2 segments on the JFKA this week. 
 

#AbolishTheFBI has been trending since The Twitter Files dropped last week.

Hmm. Looks like the American people are conspiring to smash the national security establishment — at last. 

About 80 years overdue, but better late than never. 
 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

26 minutes ago, Lori Spencer said:

#AbolishTheCIA has been trending on Twitter since Tucker’s 2 segments on the JFKA this week. 
 

#AbolishTheFBI has been trending since The Twitter Files dropped last week.

Hmm. Looks like the American people are conspiring to smash the national security establishment — at last. 

About 80 years overdue, but better late than never. 
 

 

 

I don't know about abolish, but serious, serious, serious reform strikes a chord....

[Guest]

On 12/19/2022 at 1:23 AM, Chris Barnard said:

It is not assumption, Lance; we are talking about human nature, self preservation, companies or organisations protecting their status. Its very predictable, and the higher you rise, the more commonplace it is. 

Think about the pathology of it, and simulate the head of the CIA throwing predecessors to the wolves. What are the consequences, Lance? ie for the individual and their future employment and earning potential, or for a government institution that has broken every ideal that the public stand for. Government are always trying maintain power and trust, not diminish it. 

You are saying it makes no sense to you but, does it make sense that an organisation such as the CIA, which has a very morally questionable past (understatement), is going to appoint idealists with a coviction to morality and truth? That’s a paradox. As morally sound people don’t like ordering assassinations, signing off on mind control experiments or organising coup d’etats in vulnerable developing world countries. None of that is speculation, its a matter of public record. 
 

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 12/18/2022 at 1:40 PM, Chris Barnard said:

1) You want to provoke/agitate members.

2) You’re not thinking at all. 

The initial two points I made were entirely accurate in terms of your position, you've showed your hand and you're out of ideas @Lance Payette. We've gone full circle. You're the only one that is mentioning secret cabals and UFO's. Perhaps your preoccupation with them is impairing your judgement? You're a grown man who should have acquired some wisdom. Unfortunately, it's deficient in this discussion. I am long enough in the tooth that I don't expect logic or rationality from everyone, nor do I think that everyone has the same faculties. It does seem like you are getting a touch frustrated. 🙂 
 

[Denny Zartman]

Your question makes no sense @Lance Payette . You post that list of names of CIA Directors as if it means something. The CIA is one of the most secretive organizations in the world, and for some reason you believe that, by the law of averages, at least one of the Directors would have wanted to reverse that course and reveal perhaps their biggest secret of all time. McDonald's has had a lot of CEO's in the last thirty years... shouldn't at least one of them have suggested getting out of the restaurant business entirely? It's a silly question.

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

Your question makes no sense @Lance Payette . You post that list of names of CIA Directors as if it means something. The CIA is one of the most secretive organizations in the world, and for some reason you believe that, by the law of averages, at least one of the Directors would have wanted to reverse that course and reveal perhaps their biggest secret of all time. McDonald's has had a lot of CEO's in the last thirty years... shouldn't at least one of them have suggested getting out of the restaurant business entirely? It's a silly question.

Also I would point out that CIA directors protect secrecy, period, not just the JFK bombshell. Possibly many of the long list of directors didn’t know anything about JFK documents. But with the possible exception of Stansfield Turner they are there to protect secrets, not disclose them. 

[Guest]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:01 AM, Denny Zartman said:

Your question makes no sense @Lance Payette . You post that list of names of CIA Directors as if it means something. The CIA is one of the most secretive organizations in the world, and for some reason you believe that, by the law of averages, at least one of the Directors would have wanted to reverse that course and reveal perhaps their biggest secret of all time. McDonald's has had a lot of CEO's in the last thirty years... shouldn't at least one of them have suggested getting out of the restaurant business entirely? It's a silly question.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

You  folks wish I’d just shut up, but this thread is really highly instructive about Conspiracy World and Conspiracy Think. Below are very short entries on the 12 CIA Directors since 1992, serving under three Republican and three Democratic Presidents. These are the “intelligence operatives” you folks believe were willing to sell their souls to protect the JFKA Bombshell regarding the CIA’s role in the assassination.

I’ve simply selected some non-intelligence credentials that make clear these distinguished and highly diverse individuals were, in the main, hardly “intelligence operatives” likely to sell their souls for no bigger reason than the JFKA Bombshell you hypothesize exists. (Not to mention the diverse Presidents they served, half of whom pretty much despised the other half. Clinton famously charged Webb Hubbell with finding out who killed JFK.) Nothing says these people were saints; some were involved in major scandals. But they were hardly likely to sell their souls to preserve the JFK Bombshell you hypothesize exists.

This is how Conspiracy Think works. You won’t read these snippets. You can’t afford to. Your corner of Conspiracy World, where “the CIA did it,” hinges on maintaining the illusions that serve as the foundation for your theories. These folks HAVE to be evil incarnate. Your fond notion that there is some CIA document(s) Out There that will reveal the JFK Bombshell once and for all is both naïve and silly.

The only thing that actually makes sense is the UFO community’s notion – a cabal of insiders who make sure the Director and President never see the JFKA Bombshell (or Alien Bombshell, as the case may be). That is semi-plausible for perhaps ten years, but not 60 – and not in the face of the Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

Here's the Rogues Gallery of Guardians of the JFK Bombshell:

Robert M. Gates – President of Texas A&M University; Secretary of Defense under Bush Sr.; reappointed as Secretary of Defense by Obama; awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom by Obama; Chancellor of the College of William & Mary; President of the Boy Scouts of America.

R. James Woolsey, Jr. – Rhodes Scholar; Under Secretary of the Navy; as CIA Director, never had so much as one face-to-face meeting with Clinton; member of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy Board of Advisors; co-founder of the United States Energy Security Council; senior vice president at Booz Allen Hamilton for Global Strategic Security; successful venture capitalist.

• As CIA Director, implemented policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.

John M. Deutch – chemical engineer; Director of Energy Research, Acting Assistant Secretary for Energy Technology, and Undersecretary of the Department for the Department of Energy; Dean of Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology; elected to the American Philosophical Society; member of the National Petroleum Council.

• As CIA Director, continued policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.
   
• Noam Chomsky, of all people, said "He has more honesty and integrity than anyone I've ever met in academic life, or any other life... If somebody's got to be running the C.I.A., I'm glad it's him.”

George Tenet – awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Dubya; Distinguished Professor in the Practice of Diplomacy and Senior Research Associate in the Institute for the Study of Diplomacy at the Georgetown School of Foreign Service.

Porter Goss – Member of the House of Representatives (Florida) for 16 years; co-chairman of the Board of the Office of Congressional Ethics.

Gen. Michael V. Hayden – Four-star general in the Air Force; served 41 years in the USAF; co-chairs the Bipartisan Policy Center's Electric Grid Cyber Security Initiative; national security analyst for CNN.

Leon E. Panetta - Secretary of Defense under Obama; White House Chief of Staff under Clinton; Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton; U.S. Representative from California for 16 years; chairman of the Panetta Institute for Public Policy at California State University.

Gen. David Petraeus – four-star general in the Army; served 37 years in the Army; awarded Distinguished Service Medal; Judge Widney Professor at University of Southern California, "a title reserved for eminent individuals from the arts, sciences, professions, business and community and national leadership;" senior fellow at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government; honorary professor at the Institute of Conflict, Cooperation and Security at the University of Birmingham in England.

John Brennan – alas, pretty much nothing but a CIA guy.

Mike Pompeo - first in his class at West Point, where he majored in engineering management; law degree from Harvard; member of the House of Representatives from Kansas for six years; Secretary of State under Trump; devout Christian, active in church affairs.

Gina Haspel – alas, pretty much just a CIA gal.

William Burns – 32 year diplomatic career in the Foreign Service; president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; ambassador to Jordan; Assistant Secretary of State for Near East affairs; ambassador to the Russian Federation; Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs; recipient of three Presidential Distinguished Service Awards.

LP-

You ask a legitimate question in some regards. 

1. Not all CIA Directors may not have been clued in. Some may have accepted the orthodox explanation of the JFKA, and never asked. After all, agency lifers are not going to volunteer the information. Some directors may have even felt it is better not to even ask. 

2. The agency staff may have even lied to directors. That has happened. 

3. Any organization or person can get trapped by their own lies. For the CIA, in later iterations, to suddenly come clean would entirely darken the agency's reputation---not only were they somehow involved in the JFKA, but then, worse, lied about it for 60 years. 

----

IMHO, it is likely LHO was an intel asset, and he somehow became involved in the JFKA. That is what is being covered up. It may be worse than that. 

Tucker Carlson has explicitly named CIA directors Brennan and Pompeo as knowledgable about the true story of the JFKA. Neither has agreed to be on his show. 

Carlson strikes me a smart guy, and he is a near lifelong Washingtonian. I guess Carlson would know if he is being played, or set up for a fall. 

We will see. 

 

[Cory Santos]

3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

You  folks wish I’d just shut up, but this thread is really highly instructive about Conspiracy World and Conspiracy Think. Below are very short entries on the 12 CIA Directors since 1992, serving under three Republican and three Democratic Presidents. These are the “intelligence operatives” you folks believe were willing to sell their souls to protect the JFKA Bombshell regarding the CIA’s role in the assassination.

I’ve simply selected some non-intelligence credentials that make clear these distinguished and highly diverse individuals were, in the main, hardly “intelligence operatives” likely to sell their souls for no bigger reason than the JFKA Bombshell you hypothesize exists. (Not to mention the diverse Presidents they served, half of whom pretty much despised the other half. Clinton famously charged Webb Hubbell with finding out who killed JFK.) Nothing says these people were saints; some were involved in major scandals. But they were hardly likely to sell their souls to preserve the JFK Bombshell you hypothesize exists.

This is how Conspiracy Think works. You won’t read these snippets. You can’t afford to. Your corner of Conspiracy World, where “the CIA did it,” hinges on maintaining the illusions that serve as the foundation for your theories. These folks HAVE to be evil incarnate. Your fond notion that there is some CIA document(s) Out There that will reveal the JFK Bombshell once and for all is both naïve and silly.

The only thing that actually makes sense is the UFO community’s notion – a cabal of insiders who make sure the Director and President never see the JFKA Bombshell (or Alien Bombshell, as the case may be). That is semi-plausible for perhaps ten years, but not 60 – and not in the face of the Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

Here's the Rogues Gallery of Guardians of the JFK Bombshell:

Robert M. Gates – President of Texas A&M University; Secretary of Defense under Bush Sr.; reappointed as Secretary of Defense by Obama; awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom by Obama; Chancellor of the College of William & Mary; President of the Boy Scouts of America.

R. James Woolsey, Jr. – Rhodes Scholar; Under Secretary of the Navy; as CIA Director, never had so much as one face-to-face meeting with Clinton; member of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy Board of Advisors; co-founder of the United States Energy Security Council; senior vice president at Booz Allen Hamilton for Global Strategic Security; successful venture capitalist.

• As CIA Director, implemented policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.

John M. Deutch – chemical engineer; Director of Energy Research, Acting Assistant Secretary for Energy Technology, and Undersecretary of the Department for the Department of Energy; Dean of Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology; elected to the American Philosophical Society; member of the National Petroleum Council.

• As CIA Director, continued policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.
   
• Noam Chomsky, of all people, said "He has more honesty and integrity than anyone I've ever met in academic life, or any other life... If somebody's got to be running the C.I.A., I'm glad it's him.”

George Tenet – awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Dubya; Distinguished Professor in the Practice of Diplomacy and Senior Research Associate in the Institute for the Study of Diplomacy at the Georgetown School of Foreign Service.

Porter Goss – Member of the House of Representatives (Florida) for 16 years; co-chairman of the Board of the Office of Congressional Ethics.

Gen. Michael V. Hayden – Four-star general in the Air Force; served 41 years in the USAF; co-chairs the Bipartisan Policy Center's Electric Grid Cyber Security Initiative; national security analyst for CNN.

Leon E. Panetta - Secretary of Defense under Obama; White House Chief of Staff under Clinton; Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton; U.S. Representative from California for 16 years; chairman of the Panetta Institute for Public Policy at California State University.

Gen. David Petraeus – four-star general in the Army; served 37 years in the Army; awarded Distinguished Service Medal; Judge Widney Professor at University of Southern California, "a title reserved for eminent individuals from the arts, sciences, professions, business and community and national leadership;" senior fellow at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government; honorary professor at the Institute of Conflict, Cooperation and Security at the University of Birmingham in England.

John Brennan – alas, pretty much nothing but a CIA guy.

Mike Pompeo - first in his class at West Point, where he majored in engineering management; law degree from Harvard; member of the House of Representatives from Kansas for six years; Secretary of State under Trump; devout Christian, active in church affairs.

Gina Haspel – alas, pretty much just a CIA gal.

William Burns – 32 year diplomatic career in the Foreign Service; president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; ambassador to Jordan; Assistant Secretary of State for Near East affairs; ambassador to the Russian Federation; Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs; recipient of three Presidential Distinguished Service Awards.

So Lance, have these same people covered up the existence of ufos and/or little green men?   Yes or no will do.  

[Gil Jesus]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:42 AM, Lori Spencer said:

#AbolishTheCIA has been trending on Twitter since Tucker’s 2 segments on the JFKA this week. 
 

#AbolishTheFBI has been trending since The Twitter Files dropped last week.

Hmm. Looks like the American people are conspiring to smash the national security establishment — at last. 

About 80 years overdue, but better late than never. 
 

 

 

I think the CIA shoud be "broken into a thousand pieces" like JFK intended. By that I mean it should be reduced to its original purpose of Intelligence gathering. Eisenhower should never have let it become an operational arm of US foreign policy. This was an uncontrollable Frankenstein monster under his watch and grew with its successes in Iran and Guatemala. The Dulles brothers ran American foreign policy in the 1950s and the CIA became a power in its own. 

I believe the CIA's Cubans killed Kennedy, specifically the DRE. And they had help from like-minded right wingers in the Secret Service, the FBI and the US military, all of whom were given advance notice of the assassination and let it happen.

Likewise, today's FBI has overstepped its legal boundaries in colluding with private business ( social media ) by censoring free speech. While posts threatening people or planning criminal activity should be reported, IMO, opinions should not.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Nice work Lori.

I did not know those were trending.

Clearly a result of the new files I think.

And I agree with Gil. about CIA.

Why won't they let us see the whole Schlesinger memo to JFK on this.?

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, I find Lance's question fairly silly. We have no reason to believe ANY of these directors had an interest in what was in the JFK files, or even had the wherewithal to understand what they were looking at if they did look at them. Schlesinger is a dirty word within the CIA because he forced agents to cough up the "family jewels" I don't believe any director has followed in his footsteps. To go back to the McDonald's analogy, let's say there was a time when McDonald's had a rat problem--as in their burgers being 2% rat. Let's say then that this was exposed, and that a new CEO came aboard and had someone perform a detailed study that was supposed to remain top secret, in which the rat problem was identified. Suppose this CEO and the next two over a five year period publicly claimed they'd fixed the rat problem. And that the stock value of the company returned to its pre-rat crisis levels.

Now, say, a new CEO comes aboard 25 years down the road. Does he ask for a new rat study? Hell no. Does he go back and dig through all the rat studies? No. Old news. Why bother? Now let's say he does dig a little and comes across a document in which the rat problem is described as 5%, not 2%. Does he release it? No. Why? His stock-holders would kill him. The country has moved on. Why destroy a company over something that happened decades ago? 

So, in short, there's almost no chance of a new director ordering the release of any skeleton from its closet...unless it's for PR purposes, when investors fear the worst.

Now, it looks like investors are starting to fear the worst. So it could very well be that sometime in the near future...

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

You  folks wish I’d just shut up, but this thread is really highly instructive about Conspiracy World and Conspiracy Think. Below are very short entries on the 12 CIA Directors since 1992, serving under three Republican and three Democratic Presidents. These are the “intelligence operatives” you folks believe were willing to sell their souls to protect the JFKA Bombshell regarding the CIA’s role in the assassination.

I’ve simply selected some non-intelligence credentials that make clear these distinguished and highly diverse individuals were, in the main, hardly “intelligence operatives” likely to sell their souls for no bigger reason than the JFKA Bombshell you hypothesize exists. (Not to mention the diverse Presidents they served, half of whom pretty much despised the other half. Clinton famously charged Webb Hubbell with finding out who killed JFK.) Nothing says these people were saints; some were involved in major scandals. But they were hardly likely to sell their souls to preserve the JFK Bombshell you hypothesize exists.

This is how Conspiracy Think works. You won’t read these snippets. You can’t afford to. Your corner of Conspiracy World, where “the CIA did it,” hinges on maintaining the illusions that serve as the foundation for your theories. These folks HAVE to be evil incarnate. Your fond notion that there is some CIA document(s) Out There that will reveal the JFK Bombshell once and for all is both naïve and silly.

The only thing that actually makes sense is the UFO community’s notion – a cabal of insiders who make sure the Director and President never see the JFKA Bombshell (or Alien Bombshell, as the case may be). That is semi-plausible for perhaps ten years, but not 60 – and not in the face of the Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

Here's the Rogues Gallery of Guardians of the JFK Bombshell:

Robert M. Gates – President of Texas A&M University; Secretary of Defense under Bush Sr.; reappointed as Secretary of Defense by Obama; awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom by Obama; Chancellor of the College of William & Mary; President of the Boy Scouts of America.

R. James Woolsey, Jr. – Rhodes Scholar; Under Secretary of the Navy; as CIA Director, never had so much as one face-to-face meeting with Clinton; member of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy Board of Advisors; co-founder of the United States Energy Security Council; senior vice president at Booz Allen Hamilton for Global Strategic Security; successful venture capitalist.

• As CIA Director, implemented policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.

John M. Deutch – chemical engineer; Director of Energy Research, Acting Assistant Secretary for Energy Technology, and Undersecretary of the Department for the Department of Energy; Dean of Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology; elected to the American Philosophical Society; member of the National Petroleum Council.

• As CIA Director, continued policy to declassify records pertaining to U.S. covert operations during the Cold War.
   
• Noam Chomsky, of all people, said "He has more honesty and integrity than anyone I've ever met in academic life, or any other life... If somebody's got to be running the C.I.A., I'm glad it's him.”

George Tenet – awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Dubya; Distinguished Professor in the Practice of Diplomacy and Senior Research Associate in the Institute for the Study of Diplomacy at the Georgetown School of Foreign Service.

Porter Goss – Member of the House of Representatives (Florida) for 16 years; co-chairman of the Board of the Office of Congressional Ethics.

Gen. Michael V. Hayden – Four-star general in the Air Force; served 41 years in the USAF; co-chairs the Bipartisan Policy Center's Electric Grid Cyber Security Initiative; national security analyst for CNN.

Leon E. Panetta - Secretary of Defense under Obama; White House Chief of Staff under Clinton; Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton; U.S. Representative from California for 16 years; chairman of the Panetta Institute for Public Policy at California State University.

Gen. David Petraeus – four-star general in the Army; served 37 years in the Army; awarded Distinguished Service Medal; Judge Widney Professor at University of Southern California, "a title reserved for eminent individuals from the arts, sciences, professions, business and community and national leadership;" senior fellow at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government; honorary professor at the Institute of Conflict, Cooperation and Security at the University of Birmingham in England.

John Brennan – alas, pretty much nothing but a CIA guy.

Mike Pompeo - first in his class at West Point, where he majored in engineering management; law degree from Harvard; member of the House of Representatives from Kansas for six years; Secretary of State under Trump; devout Christian, active in church affairs.

Gina Haspel – alas, pretty much just a CIA gal.

William Burns – 32 year diplomatic career in the Foreign Service; president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; ambassador to Jordan; Assistant Secretary of State for Near East affairs; ambassador to the Russian Federation; Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs; recipient of three Presidential Distinguished Service Awards.

 

IMO smart as these guys were, they knew it would be a sure way to NOT get the job.

The job is about fixing problems, it's not about digging up old dirt.