David Atlee Phillips: Oswald never went to Mexico!

[James DiEugenio]

Does this include the question by Eddie Lopez near the end of the interview when he asked her: 

How tall was the man you talked to about the in transit visa? 

She asked Cornwell to stand up and said, "He was about that tall."

A mild giggle broke out.

Gary is about 5' 6" on a good day.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Denis Morissette]

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Does this include the question by Eddie Lopez near the end of the interview when he asked her: 

How tall was the man you talked to about the in transit visa? 

She asked Cornwell to stand up and said, "He was about that tall."

A mild giggle broke out.

Gary is about 5' 6" on a good day.

 

I'll check my summary of the interview. I don't remember that part.

[Denis Morissette]

This is the summary of what the audio I had. I think there was a second audio tape on the shelves when I was at NARA. Maybe that part was on that cassette.

 

DURAN, SYLVIA

CASSETTE 1, SIDE 1 (39 minutes)

0:02: Please explain how you obtained a job at the council?

0:35: How did you know ___________ at this time?

1:01. Because of his occupation, he knew your husband. Correct?

1:18. When was the first time you came on the job?

1:40. For how long did you keep working there?

1:50. For how long after the JFK assassination did you keep working there?

1:54. Sylvia: Only 2 days.

1:58. During that time, what were the hours of operation?

2:28. Was the councll open for visitors outside operating hours?

Sylvia: No.

2:38. Would you please give us the layout of the counsel at that time?

CUTS OFF. 

3:09. Late September 1963. We knew from you the other day that a man named Lee came.

3:42. Do you remember if he came many times?

Sylvia: 3 times.

3:49: Do you remember the dates?

Sylvia: No

4:12: Were these on different dates?

Sylvia: Same day.

4:21. On the first visit, what did the man say and what you said in response?

Sylvia. Wanted a visa to go to Cuba.

5:25. Did he tell you what country he wanted to go to?

Sylvia: Soviet Union.

5:45. Did you suggest to him an alternative to get this visa?

6:30. I understand you don’t have a distinct recollection of what you told Oswald, but you assume you told him that he needed to have friends in Cuba.

7:05: CUTS.

7:13. Is there any chance that he was at the council more on more than one day?

Sylvia: No.  I read in Reader’s Digest that he was there at three different days. Friday, Saturday and Monday. That’s not true.

7:48. Could have he come the first time on Thursday, and then on Friday?

Sylvia: No. He came on the same day.

8:18. Would it be consistent with your normal procedures that to type the application on his first visit even if he did not have a photo of himself?

Sylvia. No. 

8:39: In other words, you would have ensured you had a photo of him before starting that you type the application?

Sylvia: Yes.

9:02. Did he tell you where he lived at the time?

Sylvia: No.

9:11. Was it a problem that he did not have an address in Mexico City?

10:03. On his second visit, you typed the application, ________, _____ picture _____. Is that correct? Then what did you do with it?

11:14: Did he sign it in your presence?

Sylvia: Yes.

11:23. Anything occurred on the second visit?

Sylvia: No. He said he was friends with the Cuban Revolution Party, that he worked in Russia, he had a card of the New Orleans FPFC, etc

12:55. What was said or occurred to force him to show you all these?

13:32. Did anyone tell him it would be good he produces all those documents?

Sylvia: No.

CUTS at 14:26.

14:42. You said that after the second visit, he tried to get a visa from the Russian embassy. When did he return?

Sylvia: After. 5 or 6.

15:10. That was not during the normal hours. Correct?

Sylvia: Correct. 

15:19. How were you able to talk to him?

15:25. Sylvia: The doorman came up to me telling me that someone here that does not speak Spanish. “Can I send him to you”, the doorman asked.

15:55. Did you go to the gate?

Sylvia: No. Some other people did.

Discussion goes on regarding where the man located when he was around the building.

16:54. The man said he already had his Russian visa. I told him it would not be possible to give him the Cuban visa because he had to wait for the answer from Cuba.

17:20. Did he show you the Russian visa?

Sylvia: No.

18:16. The Russian embassy told you that he did not have a visa, but just applied for it. Correct?

Sylvia: Yes.

18:39. Sylvia. He got angry, was almost crying.

20:12. Sylvia.  I felt sorry for him. He was cute and looked desperate.

20:27. Has he ever told you he spoke or understood Spanish?

Sylvia: No.

20:45. Asks if her working days include Saturday.

Sylvia: Yes.

20:55. Is it possible that he came back on Saturday morning? How can you be sure he did not?

Sylvia: No. Because I told you before. He was easy to remember. He was married to a Russian woman, he lived in Russia.

21:46. I understand that. But I don’t understand how that really answers… CUTS.

21:58. What about the events make you sure he did not come back on Saturday?

22:07. Sylvia: Because I remember the type. CUTS

22:19. Silence.

22:30. Anything else you can recall about the possibility that he had the intention of killing President Kennedy?

Sylvia: No.

22:53. Let me read something to you. An extract from the book Clearing the Air written by Daniel Schorr published in 1977. It says in it that Fidel Castro said that Oswald came to the Cuban embassy. He said on his second visit, “Someone ought to shoot that President Kennedy”. Then Oswald said, “Maybe I’ll try to do it”. Do you remember that?

24:38. Sylvia: I don’t remember.

25:03. Do you think this conversation could have occurred, but you could have forgotten about it?

25:57. Do you remember Oswald blamed the US or JFK for his inability to enter Cuba?

26:48. Who was Lee angry at?

27:32. On the 3rd visit, you had suspicious about Oswald’s documents?

29:37: CUTS.

29:45. Have you ever seen him after the 3rd visit? Either in person or by telephone?

Sylvia: No.

30:15. Anyone overheard the conversations?

30:35. Anyone present during the conversation?

30:47. CUTS OFF.

31:08. Did you ever hear a conversation inside or outside the embassy about the possibly of Oswald killing JFK?

Sylvia: No.

32:15. What were your personal feelings towards JFK?

Discussion goes on until 36:55 on the feeling of the pro-Castro Mexicans towards JFK.

36:55. Did you ever hear any Cuban counsollors?

37:31. When the news came that JFK got killed, and you heard the name of the Oswald. Is there anything that you made you realize that you could have known that Oswald would kill JFK?

Sylvia: No. He was a weak man. He was not the kind of a man to kill the president.

39:07. So based on your contact with him, you still think he did not kill JFK?

Sylvia: I don’t think so.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

But we don't have proof that is true, do we?

Once again, until the breakup of the Soviet Union, the only Russian we were told was reliable on the subject was Nosenko.

Yes, I am asking. I have not done serious research on LHO's visit, or lack of, to MC 

I am asking, what provoked the three KGB officials to tell Frontline they had in fact met the real LHO in MC? 

1. They were frauds, not the true KGB officers in MC.  

2. They were the real KGB officers, but were paid off to lie.  

3. They were the real KGB officers, and had in fact met LHO in MC. 

I gather from that we have seen, US intel has failed to establish LHO was in MC. No photo, for starters. 

Do we have a complete review on KGB reports or Embassy reports from MC during the relevant period? 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ben:

This is something that should be understood.

The USSR was collapsing in about 1989 when the Wall fell.

Gorby was trying to set up a detente with the USA, and it did not work.

Americans were going over to the USSR since they knew there would be easy pickings as the economy began to fall.

Count the number of KGB guys who stuck their fingers in the air and realized which way the wind was blowing? Namely west.

So one by one these guys began to write these guys signed up with American or British publishers and sold out the so called secrets of the KGB.  LIke for example Mitrokhin, and these guys knew the JFK case was something their new publishers would truly value.  This phenomenon went on for a number of years, and many books.  And more than one lawsuit.  If you recall, they actually said that Mark Lane's first book was funded by covert KGB agents who gave him something like 1500 bucks.

The problem was that Lane had kept a log of all those who had contributed the effort behind Rush to Judgment.  There was no one who gave him anywhere near that much, not even Corliss Lamont.  Then there was the Dear Mr Hunt farrago etc etc.

It was really commerce.    

 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben:

This is something that should be understood.

The USSR was collapsing in about 1989 when the Wall fell.

Gorby was trying to set up a detente with the USA, and it did not work.

Americans were going over to the USSR since they knew there would be easy pickings as the economy began to fall.

Count the number of KGB guys who stuck their fingers in the air and realized which way the wind was blowing? Namely west.

So one by one these guys began to write these guys signed up with American or British publishers and sold out the so called secrets of the KGB.  LIke for example Mitrokhin, and these guys knew the JFK case was something their new publishers would truly value.  This phenomenon went on for a number of years, and many books.  And more than one lawsuit.  If you recall, they actually said that Mark Lane's first book was funded by covert KGB agents who gave him something like 1500 bucks.

The problem was that Lane had kept a log of all those who had contributed the effort behind Rush to Judgment.  There was no one who gave him anywhere near that much, not even Corliss Lamont.  Then there was the Dear Mr Hunt farrago etc etc.

It was really commerce.    

 

That is what I am asking.

1. Are the three KGB guys in the Frontline episode real? 

2. If they are real, were they paid off? 

Who would have paid them off? 

If it is true they were paid off...that is one huge story. 

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The false story to which Hoover alludes was almost certainly the story spread by Nicaraguan intelligence agent Gilberto Alvarado that Oswald had received money while in the Cuban consulate. If you are trying to imply that Hoover believed Oswald never traveled to Mexico City, you should point us to his saying so, or to an FBI investigation into where he really traveled. 

I have PAt... many, many times and with substantial supporting evidence.

Alvarado's story was a DAP invention...  Kinda sad when it stares you in the face and you'd rather find any other solution

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ-

Obviously, I am not as familiar with these documents as you.

1. I gather you are saying you have seen relevant USSR documents regarding LHO putative visit to the Soviet Embassy, and those documents do not indicate LHO visited the embassy.  Docs like the CIA's Oct 9th Cables?

2. Also, CIA intercepts of KGB communications do not reveal an LHO visit to the Soviet Embassy. Correct

3. The KGB officers in question contemporaneously also deluded their own government regarding the LHO visit to the Embassy.  Why do you say "contemporaneously" as if there was not plan to deceive...  KGB sends its officers out to lie about the KGB...  One of the things I believe I've learned is that the USSR of the time was into DISINFORMATION muich more than trying to steal anything from us... there were enough willing Americans to give secrets away.

4. Although by 1993 the old Soviet Union had collapsed, the three KGB officers felt they had to continue the ruse. 
"Look how gullible the USA government and spy organizations are..."  Please Ben, it's 2023 and docs are still hidden while scores are gone forever.

5. You do not indicate whether you suspect the KBG officers were simply paid off for their performance on Frontline.
I don't know one way or another.. if you have any proof of such payments please post.   
I have a Q for you Ben, when in the life of an ex-CIA agent do you think they start telling what appears to be the truth about anything? We have Trento and Agee divulging yet only because so few non-CIA know any better.

Ben, while the documents are indeed the door... it remains the players who are most important to straighten out.  I disregarded what occurred in Mexico on purpose because of LOPEZ's off-hand acceptance of the WCR conclusion that Oswald made the trip.   

The 2 documents which began my journey are the New Orleans visa and the Hotel Registry.
(https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index)

WE 2478 and 2480.   The 15 day visa (actually good for 180 days) is made out to "Lee, Harvey Oswald" yet signed as we have seen his signature a million times.  The rule at the hotel is the guest signs in day 1 while the manager writes in the name each day for the length of the stay.  The man who signs "Lee H. Oswald"

  

Puts "Lee, Harvey Oswald" on the hotel registry - overlays - mimicking the visa (visa acquisition being another ruse)

I came to learn that every item of evidence was the work of OCHOA with direct evidence he added and changed documents before giving to the FBI and the fBI only provided copies, never originals.

Point remained... if the Visa was the work of Gaudet, which I believe was so, creating the evidence after the fact created all sorts of problems for OCHOA and the FBI....  When I then learned that all 4 Mexican bus lines' main and Nuevo Laredo locations were raided the day of the assassination with only the records for Sept 26 thru Oct 4th removed... from all 4, and by "representatives of the government"

Even the FBI's own reports contradicts which line they think he was on as he traveled and are even worse in MExico when we are treated to the Aussie ladies and the MacFarlands....  both of whose evidence is terrible for something so vitally important. 

 

Then there was OSBORNE/BOWEN

And how what he says appears in the report:   You'd have to read some of the work to dive deeper into the "others on the bus" who had anything to say about an American.  Those who do are invariably tied to DAP or the Gobernacion which had both a CIA asset and FBI asset running things.

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

"At least one Mexican source on the CIA payroll had told his case officer that "all that would have to be done to recruit Ms. Duran was to get a blonde, blue-eyed American in bed with her.""

One wonders if that was the original putative reason for a visitor calling himself "Oswald" at the embassy...

Matt - 

Like the rave party that Oswald never attended, Duran's reputation based on her looks and affair with Carlos Lechuga former Cuban ambassador to Mexico and at the time Amb to the US.... would in no way mean she was as "wild" as the CIA and Leibeler would make her out to be.  

Who was this Mexican source Matt?  It's important.

 

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Does this include the question by Eddie Lopez near the end of the interview when he asked her: 

How tall was the man you talked to about the in transit visa? 

She asked Cornwell to stand up and said, "He was about that tall."

A mild giggle broke out.

Gary is about 5' 6" on a good day.

 

 

Here you go Jim... on the right

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, I am asking. I have not done serious research on LHO's visit, or lack of, to MC 

I am asking, what provoked the three KGB officials to tell Frontline they had in fact met the real LHO in MC? 

1. They were frauds, not the true KGB officers in MC.  

2. They were the real KGB officers, but were paid off to lie.  

3. They were the real KGB officers, and had in fact met LHO in MC. 

I gather from that we have seen, US intel has failed to establish LHO was in MC. No photo, for starters. 

Do we have a complete review on KGB reports or Embassy reports from MC during the relevant period? 

 

4.  They were real, lifetime KGB agents, who in fact perpetuated the lie about Oswald in Mexico...

If your question is going to include all the possible wrong answers we get a tautology.

So I'd have to ask in return... What provoked CBS to create specials to lie to the American people and the world about the assassination?  What provoked Time-Life to do what they did with the films, frames, images and WCR fantasy?

Ben, I think what happens as we continue to discuss this is that we become desensitized...  In the real sense of the word there was a coup d'etat in the US... a successful coup not like that sloppy mess on Jan 6th.  this was a coup run by the US Military and carried out by those beholden to that Military, which in 1963 was virtually everyone.

There would be no reason EVER to allow the pieces of said coup to form a picture despite the fact we both know that parts of the picture puzzle are as plain as day to see...  The true cutters of the puzzle pieces can only be culled from a very select group.. Dulles, Angleton, Helms and their closest were, as I see it, carrying out military orders with Military Intelligence, although with the added benefit of the CIA's CI machine.

But let's be real clear here.  Without the Military and the Military's budget.. the CIA was a toothless doberman...

You ever wonder why everything always falls on the CIA as opposed to ONI or MID?  Just maybe it was planned that way?

In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

4.  They were real, lifetime KGB agents, who in fact perpetuated the lie about Oswald in Mexico...

If your question is going to include all the possible wrong answers we get a tautology.

So I'd have to ask in return... What provoked CBS to create specials to lie to the American people and the world about the assassination?  What provoked Time-Life to do what they did with the films, frames, images and WCR fantasy?

Ben, I think what happens as we continue to discuss this is that we become desensitized...  In the real sense of the word there was a coup d'etat in the US... a successful coup not like that sloppy mess on Jan 6th.  this was a coup run by the US Military and carried out by those beholden to that Military, which in 1963 was virtually everyone.

There would be no reason EVER to allow the pieces of said coup to form a picture despite the fact we both know that parts of the picture puzzle are as plain as day to see...  The true cutters of the puzzle pieces can only be culled from a very select group.. Dulles, Angleton, Helms and their closest were, as I see it, carrying out military orders with Military Intelligence, although with the added benefit of the CIA's CI machine.

But let's be real clear here.  Without the Military and the Military's budget.. the CIA was a toothless doberman...

You ever wonder why everything always falls on the CIA as opposed to ONI or MID?  Just maybe it was planned that way?

In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Thanks for your answers.

I am not sure what is the difference between my No. 2 and your No. 4...but so be it. 

You hold that the KGB officers were real (in the 1993-PBS-Frontline show), but they lied about meeting the real LHO in MC...I assume for money? 

Of course, I distrust CBS or LIFE or any mainstream publication of the time (and to this day I suppose). 

I am certainly open to the idea there was a "large" US coup in 1963, but IMHO it may have also been a somewhat limited op from the Miami station-Cuban exile soup. 

I have posited a very small number of Cuban exiles, possibly even just two or three, piggy-backed on a David Phillips false flag op in Dallas. 

Even a limited op had to be covered up, along with LHO having been some sort of US intel asset. 

Just IMHO....

(Side note: Sure, the formal military had the huge budgets. But if elements within the CIA wanted to assassinate a US president, that doesn't take more than a few guys....in fact the fewer the better. 

The cover-up was more a matter of ad hoc complicity after the fact....)

 

[David Josephs]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:16 PM, Tom Gram said:

Was the Alvarado story presented by the CIA to the FBI as truth? Did the FBI find out that Alvarado was an asset of David Phillips or something? Is there any evidence the FBI was upset with the CIA over the Alvarado story? These are genuine questions - I have no idea, but it seems a lot more likely that Hoover was talking about the phone calls/impersonation issue. We know the FBI wrote in a memo that agents listened to a tape and saw a photo of Oswald that wasn’t Oswald. That evidence was provided by the CIA, and the problems with that evidence were priority numero uno at the top levels of the FBI in the days after the assassination. I thought the Alvarado story was simply investigated and determined to be bogus. That doesn’t really seem to meet the criteria for “double dealing” from the CIA.  

Also, your mole hunt theory makes sense, and I’ve heard variations of it before, but what evidence are you basing it on? Is there really enough evidence to be so certain that that’s what was going on? 

Maybe I’m wrong and there’s a bunch of evidence I’m not aware of here (I’m hardly an expert on MC), but you seem to criticizing theories for being speculative while presenting counter-theories that are just as speculative, if not more so. 

It was not until the 29th of Nov did MX tell HQ that Alvarado recanted... but there is more to the story of course... including Alvarado's superior (Wheelock) coming yet not taking part in the interrogation.

From the time Alvarado told his story the FBI, specifically Hoover was very concerned as this changed Oswald from LONER to this being a Castro Plot...  Phillips was in on the interrogations and yes he did recant yet privately he maintained the Sept 18th date and that the story was real...  DAP musta put the fear of G~d and the CIA in him...

 

 

One of the most damaging and amazing stories about the root cause of the assassination coming from Mexico and the CIA wants to make sure he is not punished and given something "useful and non-sensitive" to do for a few months...

to recap:  A CIA asset tells a story about Oswald receiving money to kill JFK but gets the date wrong (despite this date being the day after he supposedly got his tourist visa - and not to even mention what Nagell knows)

After a brutal interrogation he agrees to recant... 

So we guess it's ok for a CIA asset to lie about who killed JFK and why as nothing happens to the man and the lead is summarily dropped as implausible... a fabrication.  Except there are at least 3 or 4 other "witnesses" to our Oswald in MX doing nefarious things....  

I did attach a CIA report of them talking with Papich... but not the one where the CIA refuses to polygraph Villanova.... another Alvarado-type source of disinformation..

FWIW

 

 

  

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:08 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

I am certainly open to the idea there was a "large" US coup in 1963, but IMHO it may have also been a somewhat limited op from the Miami station-Cuban exile soup. 

While I agree that was a large part of the facilitation of the coup...  the events in Bethesda put the responsibility squarely on the Military's shoulders...  ONI specifically.

I do have some ONI docs and they do appear aware of many things regarding Oswald

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by David Josephs

[Steve Roe]

David Josephs, bottom line. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City? 

If not, how do you explain Silvia Duran's name in Oswald's notebook? 

Are you still believer in Harvey and Lee?