Allen Dulles and his Nazi Pals in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Lori Spencer]

In just a few months time, we’ve gone from: 

 

“the US DID NOT sabotage the Nordstream pipelines!” 
 

to

 

”so what if we did blow up the damn pipelines? Putin deserved it, and besides, now we are selling our natural gas to Germany at 3x profit!” 
 

Being American means never having to say you’re sorry. 🇺🇸 

[Lori Spencer]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:50 PM, Matthew Koch said:

@Lori SpencerCongrats on the interview!! 

You get the most the flak when you are over the target, as we are seeing.. 

Thanks, Matt. Flak is right. George is getting bomb threats, death threats, hacker attacks on his broadcast studio and websites, and has had to hire personal security pros to protect his family.

I’m also under attack from the usual suspects (those NAFO mutts follow me everywhere online) and am also beefing up security here. We are fighting back with everything we’ve got and are not going to be silenced or intimidated. 
 

If the West is the bastion of democracy and free speech we claim to be, how about letting journalists do their work without death threats, harassment campaigns , and censorship of our work? (Yes, Ukraine has an official kill list called “Peacemaker,” and several journalists are on that list.) What’s next? Gulags? Death camps? 
 

We will all soon be sharing a jail cell with Julian Assange… maybe they’ll build a special prison just for journalists. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Lori Spencer

[W. Niederhut]

3 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

In just a few months time, we’ve gone from: 

 

“the US DID NOT sabotage the Nordstream pipelines!” 
 

to

 

”so what if we did blow up the damn pipelines? Putin deserved it, and besides, now we are selling our natural gas to Germany at 3x profit!” 
 

Being American means never having to say you’re sorry. 🇺🇸 

Nonsense.  I, for one, never claimed or believed that the U.S. and NATO weren't involved in sabotaging the Nordstream pipeline. 

You have also falsely implied that this was done for the sake of U.S. Big Oil profiteers, rather than as a military objective on behalf of defending Ukraine from Russian military atrocities.

In the process, you completely glossed over my detailed comments to Chris (above) on the subject of the Nordstream sabotage, in the context of reducing revenue for Putin's brutal invasion and bombing of civilians and infrastructure in Ukraine.

Can you, at least, acknowledge the fact that Putin is committing war crimes in Ukraine, and that he has converted the Russian Federation's nascent Yeltsin-era democracy into a totalitarian police state since 2000?

That Putin's FSB thugs have routinely murdered journalists and critics?

What do you imagine to be the fate of Ukrainians in the event of a Russian military occupation?

You seem to have no awareness or concerns about Putin's crimes against humanity and his contempt for democracy.

Nor do you Putin apologists understand the dark history of Stalinism, and its relationship with 21st century Putinism.

 

[Matthew Koch]

The people who believe Russia Collusion happened and Putin Rigged the election for Trump, think that Terrorism is justifiable if it's against Putin. Interesting..

Edited February 10, 2023 by Matthew Koch

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Can you, at least, acknowledge the fact that Putin is committing war crimes in Ukraine, and that he has converted the Russian Federation's nascent Yeltsin-era democracy into a totalitarian police state since 2000?

"It is difficult to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on them not understanding it."

- Upton Sinclair

[Paul Brancato]

Pretty much all of you ignored my question. 
lori is correct in her observation of the general reaction here to the US destruction of Nordstream 2. Sure, reduce profits for Russia. But at what cost to European citizens? And what profit to US Oil and gas companies, who appear to be suddenly your best friends?

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

Let me add a second question? Would any of you favored a pre invasion deal with Putin to promise no NATO membership for Ukraine? 
And a third question? In 1963 if you were sitting in Allen Dulles shoes, or were one of the JCS, and you found out that your President was going behind your back and communicating with Nikita Kruschchev, who you despised, what would you have done? 
if you can’t at least envision Peace, or long for it, and root against the warmongers on this planet, what the hell are you doing on this Forum? 

[Guest]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:49 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

    I'm responding to your points here (in red.)

Chris wrote:

Thanks William. You’re making the case that sabotage is ethical in this situation, that you support your country in doing so (Biden/USA). With this ‘greater good’ philosophy of yours which places paramount importance on ensuring Ukraine remains democratic. Is there any cost that would be too great for you to proceed with this righteous stand? 

My point about Nordstream is that it was a source of funding for Putin's genocidal war in Ukraine.

Putin is committing mass murder of civilians in Ukraine with missiles and drones. 

Is it ethical in this situation to establish a blockade on his military resources and funding?

- The destruction of Europe or the world via nuclear exchange? I watched Kubrick’s “Dr Strangelove” the other night, might be worth some others here taking a look. 

Are you naive enough to imagine that I am not familiar with Dr. Strangelove and Cold War history?

As for 2023, is it judicious to allow Putin to successfully engage in nuclear blackmail against Europe-- to simply let the bully have his way?

And I noticed that you didn't comment on Putin's threats to nuke the U.K., other than criticizing Boris Johnson.

- Causing the pensioners and impoverished peoples of Europe to choose between food and heat this winter or any subsequent winter. How many will die? There was already an economic catastrophe because of ill advised C19 protocols. 

Is democracy worth defending?  And at what cost?

Perhaps Biden and the U.S. military should have left that Nordstream issue up to you Europeans.

But we Americans waited too long to intervene against Hitler, and you Europeans paid a high price for our isolationism prior to 1942.

(Incidentally, my father fought with the U.S. 753rd Tank Battalion for the entire duration of U.S. military action against Hitler-- from North Africa to Sicily, Rome, France, and into Germany at the war's end.  Over 70% of his original comrades in his battalion from Fort Hood, Texas were killed in WWII.)

- Causing the young boys of Europe to be conscripted for some grotesque NATO Russo war, which could leave the West exposed and China to take military initiative in the East?

Is Ukrainian sovereignty and democracy worth defending?  And at what cost, in your opinion?

The whole concept of destroying the pipeline because it will save democracy is not thought through. Russia just turned east and began trading with new markets, which is why its now outstripping the German and British economies in terms of growth. Thats happening in contrast to MSM telling us repeatedly last year that the sanctions will be ruinous for Russia. Not really. 

I have read that the Russian economy is on the verge of collapse.

Your former profession was as a psychiatrist (or you’re still practicing). What did your studies tell you happens when a tyrant is put in a corner? 

A better question is, "What happens when bullies get away with bullying people?

How did that work out for Neville Chamberlain after Munich?

Regarding your nuclear question about threats from Russia. What happens if you put a snake in a corner? It shows you its teeth. I don’t see a nation with a withered military capability doing much else. 

Putin can withdraw from Ukraine.  No one is putting that snake in a corner.

Of course Putin is openly contemptuous of “Western Democracy” as he thinks its an illusion. He has referenced the imploding/fall of the west periodically. I wonder how much of that is because the West treats him with contempt? Or because is in decline?

The fall of the West?  Get real.

My grandparents were from Slovenia, and I visited there before the fall of communism in 1990.

Like other former communist countries in Eastern Europe, it is far more prosperous in the EU.
 

I can’t agree on your definitions. How can you possible call Ukraine a democracy when it had a Western backed coup d’etat, replacing a democratically elected leader 8 years ago and, has been ethnic cleansing a proportion of its society of Russian heritage since? It tolerates and celebrates actual National Socialist’s/fascists living in the country. How is that an example of democracy? The people vote for the wrong candidate and you remove that leader? Then bomb some democracy into them for 8 years killing 14,000 people and let the National Socialist’s hunt them? Does that sound like Solon will be calling out from his grave in ancient Greece and saying “nice job guys, just what I intended” ? 

Yanukovych was an utterly corrupt Kremlin puppet.

Yulia Timoshenko was a political prisoner.

Zelensky was elected by a plurality of voters.

He's Jewish.  How can his government be considered "National Socialist?"

Meanwhile, Putin's Russian Federation has become a fascist, totalitarian police state in the 21st century.

Putin even has his own Russian version of the Hitler Youth.

He murders journalists and opposition politicians, and his thugs beat up gay rights protesters.

He bombs civilian apartment buildings and playgrounds in Ukraine.

If you're looking for Yahtzees, Putin is your man.
 

My grandfather, great grandfathers, great uncles all fought too for the allies (Allies). You referencing that is false equivalence. As stated many times earlier in the thread, the US / NATO are the dominant force expanding their sphere of influence, they were already at Russias borders to the west, militarising.

False equivalence?  My dad was permanently deaf from fighting the N-a-z-i-e-s in a tank battalion from 1943-45 on your behalf.  You're welcome.

As for NATO, their primary mission in Europe was an outgrowth of Churchill and FDR's Atlantic Charter--to preserve democracy in Europe from Soviet totalitarianism.  And our Marshall Plan helped Western Europe rebuild and prosper after it was destroyed by the N-a-z-i-e-s. 

In contrast, the Soviet Bloc was oppressed and impoverished.

What did the U.S.S.R. (or the Russian Federation) ever do for you guys--after defeating the N-a-z-i Wehrmacht?

You are mislabeling our defense of democracy in Europe as American imperialism.

The NATO/West’s military is enormous, their resources are so vast. They’ve directly broken accords they made and agitated this very situation that could have been avoided. If the truth be known, the USA doesn’t want Europe buying Russian energy, it wants Europe buying US energy and being dependant on the USA. Its hardly hidden this idea agenda, William. 

I think you're wrong to interpret our defense of Ukrainian sovereignty as an economic agenda.

We're spending billions of our own U.S. taxpayer resources to help Ukraine, just as we did to bail you guys out in WWI and WWII.

If you guys cared about Ukrainians; you wouldn’t be cheerleading them until their country is ashes and the children are orphans. It doesn’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again or bring back loved ones from the dead by saying “It was Putin’s fault”. 

As an Orthodox Christian, I am deeply aggrieved by Putin's massacre of both Ukrainians and Russians.

This war has been deeply depressing for me.  But I mainly blame Putin.

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Matt Allison]

13 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Let me add a second question? Would any of you favored a pre invasion deal with Putin to promise no NATO membership for Ukraine? 

There will be no negotiating with terrorists. Putin is a war criminal already known for not honoring agreements.

We already have experience with people like that; we saw what happened when Chamberlin waved around an "agreement" he got from Hitler.

Putin is the modern-day Hitler. A genocidal war criminal that wants to invade and annex sovereign countries. Those that try to make excuses for his behavior are no different than those that defended Hitler.

[Matthew Koch]

19 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Let me add a second question? Would any of you favored a pre invasion deal with Putin to promise no NATO membership for Ukraine? 
And a third question? In 1963 if you were sitting in Allen Dulles shoes, or were one of the JCS, and you found out that your President was going behind your back and communicating with Nikita Kruschchev, who you despised, what would you have done? 
if you can’t at least envision Peace, or long for it, and root against the warmongers on this planet, what the hell are you doing on this Forum? 

Paul give this a watch, I'm not a fan of Chompsky but he does a good job of explaining the conflict in a fair manner. The whole video is very good and informative in understanding the the conflict. The beginning of the video starts of with Russian Collusion pusher Rachel Maddows war mongering, and moves into 'Western Full Spectrum Dominance' talk with some clips of Chompsky discussing the conflict around 10 minutes in. 

 

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Paul give this a watch, I'm not a fan of Chompsky but he does a good job of explaining the conflict in a fair manner. The whole video is very good and informative in understanding the the conflict. The beginning of the video starts of with Russian Collusion pusher Rachel Maddows war mongering, and moves into 'Western Full Spectrum Dominance' talk with some clips of Chompsky discussing the conflict around 10 minutes in. 

 

Yeah, that's Rachel...warmongering. Geez...

Let me ask this... Under what circumstances do you think a war could have been avoided? Putin already broke off the Crimea. No one attacked. Should Ukraine have stood by while he slowly annexed half the country? Is that what you call diplomacy? 

 

 

[Bob Ness]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:50 AM, Lori Spencer said:

Don’t waste my time with this silly stuff, man.

Oh stop it. You're a self-proclaimed "journalist". Such are the arrows of your first amendment privilege. Laughable comment.

I would like to see you provide us with sources that you have contact with that aren't people who just confirm a bias you have. Anyone who posts other's opinions as a source is like the hysterical boneheads who interview each other on MSNBC or Fox or any of the channels that peddle that as journalism. Broadcasters interviewing each other isn't journalism it's manipulation. That goes for you too. Go practice journalism.

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Let me add a second question? Would any of you favored a pre invasion deal with Putin to promise no NATO membership for Ukraine? 
And a third question? In 1963 if you were sitting in Allen Dulles shoes, or were one of the JCS, and you found out that your President was going behind your back and communicating with Nikita Kruschchev, who you despised, what would you have done? 
if you can’t at least envision Peace, or long for it, and root against the warmongers on this planet, what the hell are you doing on this Forum? 

Paul a pre-invasion deal when someone is holding a gun to your head isn't a "deal". Putin had broken several agreements by that time and his word is worthless. This is a standard Euro-land grab simple as that. The end agreement would amount to the Ukraine is gone.

[Matt Allison]

24 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Yeah, that's Rachel...warmongering. Geez...

I like where someone here recently claimed that Jimmy Dore was a lefty, lol.

People that live in MAGA make-believe realities they've invented for themselves are amusing.

[Matthew Koch]

34 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Yeah, that's Rachel...warmongering. Geez...

Let me ask this... Under what circumstances do you think a war could have been avoided? Putin already broke off the Crimea. No one attacked. Should Ukraine have stood by while he slowly annexed half the country? Is that what you call diplomacy? 

Pat did you watch the video? Because you are a serial; not watcher yet commenter.. The circumstances if you watched the video and heard what Chompsky said, they could have gotten rid of their heavy weapons and agreed to not join NATO. Pretty similar to what the US did with Cuba. Crimea doesn't have much to do with what happening, if you were informed past your anecdotal I was bullied by Russian as a kid so Russia bad, take. The Civil War in Donbas IS what this conflict is about. 

Should Ukraine have stood by while he slowly half the country? Ummm.. there like 10+pages of information in this thread if you would like to educate yourself Pat, because that's a rather ignorant take. You left out a Sniper coup de tat of the prior government and and a civil war, both are important for context. Earlier in the thread the prime minister of Israel was posted talking about how your side stopped diplomacy leaving Putin the only option of finishing the fight.