Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[Denny Zartman]

On one side, you have Conspiracy Theorists who are trying to study, research, and solve the crime. On the other side, you have the Lone Nutters who think the case was solved in an hour sixty years ago.

But the LN's keep posting here every day like it's their job.

I think the LN's treat "discussion" on this forum as an intellectual exercise or a parlor game to pass the time. The LN's have made up their minds long ago, and I guess it's fun for them to keep arguing the same points over and over. Whenever they do manage to finally be cornered in a specific detail suggesting conspiracy that they can't counter (as they recently have been with the oil-free alleged rifle wrapping paper) they just say they don't care and merrily go on repeating the CT's have presented zero evidence and are all just crazy or in a cult or something.

Why bother? It's not a good-faith debate or discussion on their part. For them, countering conspiracy arguments is like a tennis player standing in front of a ball machine. For them it's fun to try and hit back as many balls as they can, but if a few get by it's no big deal. For them, it's the knocking down that's fun. Meanwhile, most folks realize the implications of a crucial piece of evidence having a seriously suspicious aspect about it. They don't ignore it like a tennis ball.

My view would be just "agree to disagree." They've invested too much time developing their online personas as a solid LN's to ever concede any point on anything. And there are so many points that, if conceded, would bring the whole Lone Nut theory crashing down immediately. Then the onus would be on the LN's to explain why they were oblivious to it this whole time.

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:37 AM, Gil Jesus said:

The Paper "Gunsack" was made by the Dallas Police in the shipping room of the TSBD on the afternoon of November 22, 1963 after Oswald was in custody.

The markings on the tape were the same as the markings from the tape dispenser in the shipping room. If Oswald took the paper home with him, did he take the tape and dispenser as well ? How could he have done that without anyone knowing ?

The paper on the "gunsack" matched the paper that was on the shipping table on the afternoon of the 22nd.

The tape on the "gunsack" matched the tape that was in the tape dispenser in the shipping room on the afternoon of the 22nd.

The Paper "Gunsack" was made by the Dallas Police in the shipping room of the TSBD on the afternoon of November 22, 1963 after Oswald was in custody. They made the "gunsack" with the paper and tape that was available, then took samples from the same roll and tape.

By doing that they were trying to match the paper and tape from the "gunsack" to the paper and tape from the TSBD ( so they thought ). What they didn't know was that all of the rolls of paper were not the same and all of the rolls of tape were not the same so what they were actually doing was matching the paper and tape on the "gunsack" to the TSBD ON THE AFTERNOON OF THE ASSASSINATION.

https://gil-jesus.com/the-bag-job/

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Charles Blackmon]

22 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Three separate experts identified Oswald's fingerprint and palm print on the bag in a manner consistent with him carrying a heavy object in the manner described by Frazier, but the endlessly spiraling conspiracy can surely account for that.

Link?

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:44 AM, Denny Zartman said:

On one side, you have Conspiracy Theorists who are trying to study, research, and solve the crime. On the other side, you have the Lone Nutters who think the case was solved in an hour sixty years ago.

But the LN's keep posting here every day like it's their job.

I think the LN's treat "discussion" on this forum as an intellectual exercise or a parlor game to pass the time. The LN's have made up their minds long ago, and I guess it's fun for them to keep arguing the same points over and over. Whenever they do manage to finally be cornered in a specific detail suggesting conspiracy that they can't counter (as they recently have been with the oil-free alleged rifle wrapping paper) they just say they don't care and merrily go on repeating the CT's have presented zero evidence and are all just crazy or in a cult or something.

Why bother? It's not a good-faith debate or discussion on their part. For them, countering conspiracy arguments is like a tennis player standing in front of a ball machine. For them it's fun to try and hit back as many balls as they can, but if a few get by it's no big deal. For them, it's the knocking down that's fun. Meanwhile, most folks realize the implications of a crucial piece of evidence having a seriously suspicious aspect about it. They don't ignore it like a tennis ball.

My view would be just "agree to disagree." They've invested too much time developing their online personas as a solid LN's to ever concede any point on anything. And there are so many points that, if conceded, would bring the whole Lone Nut theory crashing down immediately. Then the onus would be on the LN's to explain why they were oblivious to it this whole time.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 7:31 AM, Charles Blackmon said:

Link?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

You know the Warren Report is nonsense, but you don't know what it says?

Scientific Evidence Linking Rifle and Oswald to Paper Bag

Oswald's fingerprint and palmprint found on bag.--Using a standard chemical method involving silver nitrates 180 the FBI Laboratory developed a latent palmprint and latent fingerprint on the bag. (See app. X, p. 565.) Sebastian F. Latona, supervisor of the FBI's Latent Fingerprint Section, identified these prints as the left index fingerprint and right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.181 The portion of the palm which was identified was the heel of the right palm, i.e., the area near the wrist, on the little finger side.182 These prints were examined independently by Ronald G. Wittmus of the FBI,183 and by Arthur Mandella, a fingerprint expert with the New York City Police Department. 184 Both concluded that the prints were the right palm and left index finger of Lee Oswald. No other identifiable prints were found on the bag.185

Oswald's palmprint on the bottom of the paper bag indicated, of course, that he had handled the bag. Furthermore, it was consistent with the bag having contained a heavy or bulky object when he handled it since a light object is usually held by the fingers.186 The palmprint was found on the closed end of the bag. It was from Oswald's right hand, in which he carried the long package as he walked from Frazier's car to the building.187

When you read 4d on Pat's website, it isn't all that straight-forward IMO :

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4d-the-myth-of-fingerprints-and-the-fingerprints-of-myth

 

[Steve Roe]

15 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

There were several efforts that I know of to contact Bill Randle. I don’t think he ever granted an interview, and I’m pretty sure he refused to answer any questions to anyone about the assassination. 

Attempting to transform the legitimate investigation of contradictory statements and evidence into “a blithe willingness by CTers to impugn the integrity and besmirch the reputations” of poor innocent people is just a lazy emotional appeal, Lance. Bill Randle told a completely different story than the two motel managers who reported him to the FBI. What about the Thompsons? Why should the reputations of this poor Austin couple be besmirched? 

Which do you think is more likely, a motel manager and his wife making up a story about overhearing Bill say, specifically, that he was personally acquainted with Oswald and that he’d heard rumors that JFK would be assassinated if he came do Dallas over the VA Offices being moved out of Dallas (that’s pretty damn specific) - and calling the FBI immediately to report it; or Bill denying he said those things to cover his own ass and distance himself from the accused assassin? 

You are reverting to the go-to lone assassin advocate tactic of ridiculing anything even remotely critical of the official story as some looney conspiracy theory to avoid having to deal with problematic evidence. If we had a full record of the Secret Service checking out the Willie Randle lead and determining it was B.S. that’d be one thing and I’d be fully on board here, but we don’t.

Instead, to accept that we’ve been told the full story about Mr. Randle, we must accept that: 1.) the Dallas Secret Service were so incompetent that they’d mix up Linnie Mae’s husband with her brother for almost a week after the assassination; 2.) they’d go so far as to investigate Bill as a potential accomplice and purchaser of part of the murder weapon, in California, without checking out the original hearsay lead and interviewing the sources of that lead in Irving; 3.) Bill was telling the whole truth when interviewed by the SS on the 28th, when there is nothing even close to a good reason to believe him over the motel manager and his wife; 4.) Bill and Berry Caster drove straight to an anonymous job in Austin on the 22nd - a three hour drive from Dallas - and subsequently checked into a motel at 7pm, but not a single investigator in the entire US government was interested in verifying or even asking Bill, Berry, or anyone else what he was doing or where he was prior to that time. 

If you were investigating the assassination of the President, would you really be so credulous to accept all of the above at face value, or would you think it might be wise to dig a just a little bit deeper into a guy who shared a home with two of the most important witnesses in the entire case? You have credible evidence from two corroborative witnesses that this guy lied to the Secret Service about knowing Oswald, amongst other things, and you have reports from the neighborhood that he may have driven Oswald to work. What would you do next? 

 

18 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Randle’s statement to the Secret Service on the 28th directly contradicts basically everything that was reported to the FBI:

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10422#relPageId=36

I’m not really seeing a great reason to believe Bill over the motel manager.

Also, does it really make sense that the Secret Service would wait until the 28th to interview Bill about an FBI report when: 1) the SS had their own information on the afternoon of the assassination that Bill drove Oswald to work - or at least claimed he did; and 2) they were investigating Bill as an Oswald associate and possible purchaser of the rifle scope on the 23rd? 

Bill’s whereabouts on the 22nd are a complete mystery until 7pm - and there seems to be a pretty major gap in the investigative record. Where are the SS documents discussing the information obtained from the Irving Postal inspectors? The Oswald change of address form those guys gave the SS vanished, along with anything discussing any sort of follow-up on the Randle lead. Was Schneider reinterviewed? Was Dorothy Roberts interviewed to corroborate Schneider? What about the Randles? 

Also, how could the SS be so clueless to write in an official report on Nov. 26th that Bill Randle was Oswald’s only known associate and that he drove Oswald to and from work? 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/lho-arrested-at-texas-theater-nov.-22-24-1963.-c.w.-dhority/688545?item=688553

Maybe there’s nothing to it, but I think these are valid questions. 

There's nothing to it but suspicions.

When Bill Randle and Berry Caster checked into the Austin Motel, it was 7:00 pm as per Mrs. John O. Thompson, the Hotel Manager. What's the significance of 7:00 pm? Of course, they were working in Austin in normal course of business during that day. Bill's brother, Marvin Randle started and owned Irving Counter Top. He started in 1960 working out of his garage until he had enough business to move into the Shady Grove facility in Irving. The truck Caster and Bill Randle were in was registered to Marvin Randle, his brother. So bottom line they were doing nothing suspicious and checked into the Austin Motel after the workday. 

As Lance pointed out in Bill Randle's obit, he was a woodworker. Irving Counter Top also installed pre-finished cabinets along with the counter tops. A check of the Irving Counter Top business in the Newspaper Archives, from 1964, states Marvin Randle's business was primarily in the DFW area but often traveled to Austin and Houston to install counter tops. 

I know this is not your theory, but the ROKC soldiers who seem to find everything suspicious and sinister. Now how about a little common sense. Oswald never stepped one foot inside the Randle home, only outside to lay his murder weapon in the backseat of Frazier's car. Also, Oswald came out only weekends to Irving. I trust Bill Randle's account of never meeting Oswald, as Linnie Mae Randle said so herself, only seeing him get out of Frazier's car and placing that mysterious package in the backseat. 

So, my question to Parker and the ROKC soldiers is what in the Sam Hill did Bill Randle have to do anything with Oswald? 

Sure, there are plenty of mistakes in documents. I can list many of them in the early days of the investigation. This is nothing nefarious. Bill Randle was mislabeled as an associate of Oswald, because they messed up Buell Wesley Frazier with him. Sloppy, yes. Sinister, hell no. 

I'm not familiar with this "allegation" that Randle purchased a rifle scope in California. Kindly post the document that says that. 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Three separate experts identified Oswald's fingerprint and palm print on the bag in a manner consistent with him carrying a heavy object in the manner described by Frazier, but the endlessly spiraling conspiracy can surely account for that.

Holy smokes, Lance. Catch up. I debunked that almost ten years ago. An examination of the bag in the archives and Latona's testimony proves the supposed palm print was halfway up the bag and the supposed fingerprint was on the bottom. Someone on the WC's staff (Ball/Belin?) then switched this around to support that the prints indicated someone had been carrying the bag as described by Frazier. It was yet another one of their scams. 

Now, I would think your experience in legal-land would make you wary of any prosecutor's brief, and would help you make your way through the mine-field of spin in the WR. But instead you seem to embrace it.

Why not choose the middle route? That you think Oswald was guilty but that the WR was political spin? That sounds like the rational approach. 

[Charles Blackmon]

2 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

When you read 4d on Pat's website, it isn't all that straight-forward IMO :

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4d-the-myth-of-fingerprints-and-the-fingerprints-of-myth

 

A fingerprint expert lied to the Warren Commission about a supposed Oswald palm print on cardboard box D? Gee why am I not surprised.  Lt. Day was also apparently lying in his testimony about being present for the discovery of a print on a box.

And why did the Detective's fingerprint on box A come to an abrupt end where Oswald's fingerprint was found? Maybe because Oswald's print was applied after the detective print was made? 

Fascinating stuff! But never, ever question the Warren Report, right?

[Charles Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

 In my opinion, the JFKA conspiracy community is at an absolute extreme of non-critical, credulous and even irrational thinking. I would be hard-pressed to identify any comparable community.

Not hard at all. Try looking in the mirror sometime!

[Michaleen Kilroy]

5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

• He immediately leaves without asking Shelley or anyone else if the workday is over.
• He forgets the curtain rods that were so vitally important the day before.
• He hops a bus. When someone tells the driver the President has been shot, he exits the bus.
• He boards a taxi but has the driver drop him off some distance from his rooming house.
• He hurriedly enters the rooming house, has no interest in the news of the Presidential assassination on the TV and no response to Mrs. Roberts.
• He grabs his handgun, puts on a jacket, and rushes back out.

Which all makes sense if he’s a patsy.

You think the sole mastermind of the assassination didn’t have a plan to get out?

If he’s a psychopath and didn’t care about dying why didn’t he bring more bullets and just keep shooting all his imagined enemies in the guvmint vulnerable down below?

If he wants to be the political hero for Fidel and go down in history, why not wait for the arrest and start screaming communist tirades?

If he truly cares about getting out, why not have a plan? If he wants to defend himself, why not bring the hand gun in that bag? If he thought he would be a wanted man, why freaking have the damning evidence tying you to the gun on your person?!?

I know. The WC couldn’t pin LHO down and barely tried. That’s because they had to avoid his many connections to US intelligence.

And he was never a lone nut. He had a wife and kids including a newborn. When I met the boarding house family they said he could’ve chose a room in the back but he chose the one closest to people. He also broke up a fight between the families’ two bros saying, you should always love your brother and violence is never the answer.

So there’s all that.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Steve Roe]

I took a look at the ROKC conspiracy website, and they are correct about Mr. Caster. 

It should be Benny Joe Caster, not Berry J. Caster. 

Benny Caster was in the Air Force and most likely completed his active service in 1963 (he could have been in the Reserves). Now it's possible that it was Caster popping off about the Veteran's Administration offices closing in Dallas. The Dallas VA was a big operation with the hospital on Lancaster Road near Oak Cliff and I don't see that happening. Mrs. Thompson might have gotten Caster and Randle confused. By my research, the Thompson's (who were originally from East Texas) were upright hard-working citizens managing the Austin Motel on South Congress Avenue in Austin. They bought the hotel in 1961. It wasn't a flea bag motel, but rather a moderately nice motel or Tourist Courts as they called them back then. It's still there and operating, but it's been remodeled naturally. 

[Guest]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:24 PM, Tom Gram said:

Randle’s statement to the Secret Service on the 28th directly contradicts basically everything that was reported to the FBI:

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10422#relPageId=36

I’m not really seeing a great reason to believe Bill over the motel manager.

Also, does it really make sense that the Secret Service would wait until the 28th to interview Bill about an FBI report when: 1) the SS had their own information on the afternoon of the assassination that Bill drove Oswald to work - or at least claimed he did; and 2) they were investigating Bill as an Oswald associate and possible purchaser of the rifle scope on the 23rd? 

Bill’s whereabouts on the 22nd are a complete mystery until 7pm - and there seems to be a pretty major gap in the investigative record. Where are the SS documents discussing the information obtained from the Irving Postal inspectors? The Oswald change of address form those guys gave the SS vanished, along with anything discussing any sort of follow-up on the Randle lead. Was Schneider reinterviewed? Was Dorothy Roberts interviewed to corroborate Schneider? What about the Randles? 

Also, how could the SS be so clueless to write in an official report on Nov. 26th that Bill Randle was Oswald’s only known associate and that he drove Oswald to and from work? 

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/lho-arrested-at-texas-theater-nov.-22-24-1963.-c.w.-dhority/688545?item=688553

Maybe there’s nothing to it, but I think these are valid questions. 

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 11:28 AM, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Which all makes sense if he’s a patsy.

 

On 1/21/2023 at 11:28 AM, Michaleen Kilroy said:

You think the sole mastermind of the assassination didn’t have a plan to get out?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:04 PM, Steve Roe said:

It should be Benny Joe Caster, not Berry J. Caster. 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette