Basic facts that seem like conspiracy-killers to me

[Michaleen Kilroy]

14 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

See, this is what happens when we have 412 conspiracy theories. In the scenario to which I was responding, innocent young Oswald brought curtain rods and was eating his lunch. His rifle hadn't even been found. There was not yet any known connection to the TSBD. Yet he ran like a rabbit and went home to get his revolver.

Right. I don't think he had much of a "plan" for anything, or he wouldn't have had to run home and get his pistol. I think he was completely astonished at having survived the ecounter with Baker and Truly and finding himself outside the TSBD boarding a bus.

It’s a fact that LHO told the world he was a patsy. That means conspiracy. I didn’t bring it up - he did 60 years ago.

Amazing he can sneak a rifle into his workplace, assemble it, go undetected  on a floor with people, have a plan to run down stairs after the shooting and appear calm but no escape plan. Was he clever or dumb? Think he’d have to be pretty clever for all that and unbelievable that a plan of escape wouldn’t follow. And if he thought he needed a pistol for protection, seems like he’d have it with him.

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

OK, you asked for it.

Being snowed in and bored until the football starts, I’ve undertaken a review of the "Willie Randall" story. Let’s run it through the Lone Nut Common Sense-O-Meter and see if it adds up to (1) much ado about nothing or (2) another piece of the intricate conspiratorial puzzle.

Bill Randle

William Edward Randle was Linnie Mae’s husband. He worked his entire life for Irving Counter Top, which had been founded by his father Marvin in 1962 and is still in business as a family-owned company: https://www.irvingcountertop.net/about-us.html.

In 1963, Bill had already been a deacon in the First Baptist Church for eight years and would remain one for another 50+ years, until his death in 2014. He was married to Linnie Mae, a nurse, until her death in 2012. He didn’t serve in the military.

There is no indication he was ever called Willie. His obituary is for William Edward “Bill” Randle. His gravestone reads "William (Bill) Randle."

We will proceed in chronological order as best we can.

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/dallas-texas-witnesses-police-district-attorney-and-postal-inspectors-harry-holmes/705263?item=705295

My belief is that this is the source of the “Willie” confusion.

It's a December 4, 1963 report by Postal Inspectors I. L. Niewoehner and R. L. McCoy.

It covers a period beginning on November 22 and extending into December. The relevant interview entries aren’t dated, but CE 1799 indicates they date to the “early evening” on November 22. AARC Public Digital Library - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXIII, pg (aarclibrary.org) The interviews were conducted at the request of the Secret Service.

The Irving Post Office had told the Postal Inspectors a retired postal employee on Fifth Street named C. P. Schneider might have information relevant to the JFKA. Schneider turned out not to have been a postal employee but was a retiree. Schneider told them that another neighbor on Fifth Street, Mrs. Roberts (i.e., Dorothy Roberts) had said Oswald had been carrying a “large package” the morning of the assassination. Mrs. Roberts also told Schneider she had learned this from “Willie Randle,” who had driven Oswald to work that morning. Schneider said he understood Randle worked with Oswald at the TSBD. Niewoehner and McCoy understood that this information had been forwarded to the Secret Service.

CE 1799 also has Schneider saying that Roberts said Oswald was “carrying a package large enough to have contained a rifle.” Oops!

Weirdly, unless I missed something, there was no follow-up with Roberts.

Why the Irving Post Office would have mentioned Schneider to Niewoehner and McCoy is unknown. Schneider then relayed what he recalled Mrs. Roberts as having said. She seemingly confused “Wesley” with “Willie,” or perhaps Schneider’s recollection was faulty and she actually said Wesley. There is no reason to think that by "Willie" she meant Bill Randle.

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1331.pdf

This, Warren Commission Exhibit 1331, is a Secret Service Report by Darwin D. Horn of the Los Angeles Field Office dated December 3, 1963. It describes events occurring on November 22 and 23.

An investigation into the origin of the rifle scope was prompted by a call from SAIC Bouck to the L.A. Field Office at 6:45 pm on November 22. This fits perfectly with the Postal Inspectors’ report above, since their interview with Schneider in “early evening” in Irving would’ve been “late afternoon” in L.A. and allowed for a call at 6:45.

The L. A. agents visited one optical company that night. Company files were checked for “Lee H. Oswald” and “Willie Randall” without success. Ditto for a gun shop the agents visited the next day.

Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae obviously wouldn’t have turned Bill Randle into Willie Randall in their interviews, so the source of the search for Willie Randall pretty obviously has to be the interview with Schneider. "Randle" apparently became "Randall" when the information was transmitted telephonically.

https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/lho-arrested-at-texas-theater-nov.-22-24-1963.-c.w.-dhority/688545?item=688553

This is a Secret Service “Personal History of Prisoner” for Oswald.

It's dated November 26, 1963 and signed by Special Agent Robert A. Steuart of the Dallas Office of the Secret Service. It was presumably begun while Oswald was still alive and in custody, possibly the afternoon of November 22, so it may predate the call to the L.A. Field Office.

There is no reference to Willie in this document.

In the section “Associates,” it lists “Wm. Randle” with the Randles’ home address and the notation “(Drove him to and from Irving to work in Dallas)”.

Frazier went by “Wesley” and Oswald would’ve called him this. It's possible Steuart (or whoever actually filled out the report) abbreviated this as Wm. It’s unlikely Oswald would’ve provided the Randles’ exact address. It's possible Steuart simply found “Wm. Randle” in the telephone book. This is exactly how William is abbreviated in many phone books I found online.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10422#relPageId=36

This is an FBI Report dictated November 29, 1963 by Special Agent H. T. Burk. It seemingly describes interviews on November 23 – after the interview with Schneider and the call to the L.A. Field Office.

There is no reference to Willie in this document.

Mrs. John O. Thompson, Manager of the Austin Motel, said Bill Randle and Berry Caster, employees of Irving Counter Top, arrived at the motel at 7 p.m. the day of the assassination. Randle said he resided a few doors from Oswald (i.e., from Ruth Paine) and ostensibly said his wife worked in the same building (obviously not true). He ostensibly said it was rumored in Dallas that JFK would be killed due to the Veterans Administration offices being moved out of the city.

Randle indicated he was “personally acquainted” with Oswald but gave no details. At 7:30 p.m., he unsuccessfully attempted to telephone his father Marvin. He then left the motel, returned at 11 p.m., and made a call in which he learned that Linnie Mae had been called in for questioning. He immediately left for Dallas. Caster left the next morning at 7.

Randle was indeed acquainted with Oswald – Marina was living a few houses away, Oswald had been discussed in the home, and Frazier drove him to and from work on occasion. Bill obviously knew his own wife didn’t work in the TSBD, so Mrs. Thompson garbled that.

If Bill were involved in something nefarious, why would he bring Caster with him? Caster left at 7 the next morning, suggesting the work in Austin had taken place the day before. There is nothing suspicious about Bill trying to call Marvin, his father and the owner of the company, presumably to let him know how the work had gone. There is nothing suspicious about Bill leaving immediately upon learning Linnie Mae had been taken in.

Rumors about an assassination being in the works because the VA offices were being moved? The Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Dallas was opened in 1940 and is a massive facility, one of the largest VA hospitals in the country, that was expanded numerous times after 1963. https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/veterans-affairs-medical-center-dallas#:~:text=On November 15%2C 1938%2C President,projected cost of %241.2 million. 

Perhaps Linnie Mae, a vocational nurse, had overheard something and relayed it to Bill? Or perhaps Mrs. Thompson garbled yet another part of the conversation. Does it seem plausible anyone remotely involved in the assassination would be saying something like this to a motel manager?

This is a classic example of what I described in my long-ago thread, "A Beginner's Guide to the Conspiracy Game," A Beginner's Guide to the Conspiracy Game - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

What occurred was obviously a comedy of errors and much ado about nothing. In the Conspiracy Game, however, it’s dark and sinister. Maybe Bill Willie Randle really did drive Oswald to the TSBD. Maybe Bill Willie was involved in the purchase of the scope. Maybe Bill Willie was up to something on November 22 and hightailed it to Austin as an alibi. JESUS, MAYBE BILL WILLIE IS ONE OF THE KEYS TO THE ENTIRE ASSASSINATION!!!

Ya think?

If nothing else, hopefully you will now appreciate the tedious task of an elderly Lone Nutter in tracing these nutty conspiracy factoids, which no CTer ever seems to do. It’s way more fun to take the word of your favorite conspiracy “expert” and dive into dark conspiratorial speculation, eh? (I don't know if you noticed, but your dates and sequence of events are hopelessly confused.)

You're welcome.

 

Lance, I believe you got it right. Willie "should be Wesley".

Good work summarizing the events around Bill Randle and yet another false mystery promoted by ROKC goes into the circular file, along with the other nonsense like Hootkins, Prayer Blob, Oswald never lived in the Beckley Rooming house, no rifle was shooting out of the TSBD building, bus transfer planted by DPD and other looney fantasies that they cook up from time to time. This is nothing but Conspiracy Group Think going off the rails, yet again. Right now, I can see Greg Parker pounding on his keyboard in disgust and anger.

Right Parker?

Lance, speaking of watching football, one of Ed Roberts' sons a few years back told me that him and his brother used to throw the football in their front yard with Mr. Patsy. He said Oswald threw the football like a girl. Watch that pop up in the ROKC forum. 😄

 

 

[Steve Roe]

56 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

It’s a fact that LHO told the world he was a patsy. That means conspiracy. I didn’t bring it up - he did 60 years ago.

No, this is badly misinterpreted. Oswald said they (the Dallas Police) were taking him in because he used to live in the Soviet Union, I'm just a Patsy. Meaning they rounded him off the streets because the DPD thought he was a Commie. One of Oswald's many lies, he was arrested for murdering Tippit, they had no idea at the time of his arrest he had been to Russia. 

 

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Holy smokes, Lance. Catch up. I debunked that almost ten years ago.

~sigh~ Now we're treated to one of Pat Speer's frequent "Holy cow! Get real, Lance/DVP! I debunked that nonsense years ago!" declarations.

When, in fact, Pat hasn't "debunked" a single one of the Warren Commission's (Lone Nut) conclusions. He only thinks he's done some "debunking".

To give credit where credit is due, however, Pat did do some "debunking" in 2009 concerning one small aspect of the JFK case revolving around some incorrect information written by author Vincent Bugliosi in his book "Reclaiming History" (which was an issue concerning the conflicting paper bag documents written by Vincent Drain of the FBI---discussed at my site here).

But as far as actually "debunking" (i.e., proved to be wrong) any of the major topics or theories or pieces of actual evidence connected with the JFK and Tippit murder cases, Patrick J. Speer has not debunked a single thing. And that is a fact.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Amazing he can...go undetected on a floor with people....

And yet no CTer seems to think it "amazing" that the real killer(s) (i.e., total strangers to everyone who worked in the TSBD) managed to do that very thing ("go undetected on a floor with people").

Funny, huh?

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Michaleen Kilroy]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

No, this is badly misinterpreted. Oswald said they (the Dallas Police) were taking him in because he used to live in the Soviet Union, I'm just a Patsy

So your interpretation is right because it’s yours?

His communist credentials - living in Russia, FPCC — are exactly the reason the American public bought the official story at least for a time.  He was the communist fanatic they were always told about who wanted to destroy America come to life.

Scared the hell outta the govt though because of the potential for war and exposing the worst of our global interventions.

From the conspiratorial POV (which btw is shared by 60+% of the country) he was the perfect patsy for the intel people who knew so much about him and wanted Kennedy dead.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[James DiEugenio]

Oh please with this rifle to work fantasy.

The drug advisor from Arizona knows that every step from Oswald allegedly purchasing the rifle from Klein's--which would get blown out of court--to him allegedly bringing it into the building--which Daugherty would render dubious, to Oswald being on the sixth floor--which Adams, Garner, and Styles would turn spurious--all of this would either never be allowed in a court of law, or be so seriously challenged that it would become worthless. 

And once you brought in the attempted witness intimidation with Frazier, the prosecution would be lost. And when you compare the Frazier description with what the DPD brought out of the building--which Pat Speer has done some good work on--plus the fact that that alleged paper bag exhibit was never photographed in situ? Why?  And finally, there is the  probative testimony of Troy West. Harold Weisberg enshrined West in the critics' Hall of Fame, since his testimony was so resoundingly exculpatory.  West neuters any chain of custody on that paper bag.

So, what happens here under examination is what so often happens when people who either do not know the evidence, or those who wish to ignore it, end up doing.  Their argument ends up not just collapsing, but proving the opposite of what they wish to convey.

This is what I do not get and I have complained about often.  Why do lawyers who understand what legal procedure is and what the rules of testimony and evidence are, somehow forget all of that in the JFK case?  Why is it tossed out the window?

My only answer to that is that the case has become political for them.  And therefore, the political agenda overrides the legal ethics involved.

PS As Wade told McBride, the police were looking for Oswald before he was apprehended. Just look what he writes about Mentzel.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

23 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

So your interpretation is right because it's yours?

No, Steve's interpretation is right because it's simply, well, right. Unless you want to now theorize that the DPD, at the precise time of Oswald's arrest at the Texas Theater, did have knowledge of the fact that Oswald lived in Russia.

Because unless you want to go down that road, then it couldn't be more obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald's "I'm just a patsy" statement was nothing but a dodge and a bald-faced lie. And that's because he was blaming the DPD for his "Patsy" status. He wasn't accusing the CIA or David Ferrie or Clay Shaw or anyone else of making him the "patsy". He was accusing only the people who have "taken me in" --- and that was the Dallas Police Department.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/03/oswalds-patsy-lie.html

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Beyond being deliberately ignorant of the evidence since the WC, the LNers also feign naïveté regarding the CIA in the Cold War, how they worked and what they were capable of with little to no accountability to anyone.

Let’s pretend they weren’t masters of deception and trickery even though they had a manual just for that: https://www.amazon.com/Official-CIA-Manual-Trickery-Deception/dp/0061725900/ref=asc_df_0061725900/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241995309321&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7304719295961481994&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1013962&hvtargid=pla-435433932475&psc=1

The original OSS guys - precursor to the CIA - required recruits to study a book called The Big Con: the Story of the Confidence Man to learn the art of deception and misdirection. The movie The Sting was based on it.

Dylan called Dealey ‘the greatest magic trick under the sun” in his rumination on who was behind the assassination in his “Murder Most Foul” song. He was right.

[Michaleen Kilroy]

20 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

No, Steve's interpretation is right because it's simply, well, right. Unless you want to now theorize that the DPD, at the precise time of Oswald's arrest at the Texas Theater, did have knowledge of the fact that Oswald lived in Russia.

That’s no argument. It’s just interpretation from the LN POV.

From my POV, the “commie fanatic, and sociopathic loser who just wanted to be somebody” was telling the WORLD he was NOT involved in the shooting but had been framed.

He’s not just saying the DPD has taken him in because he lived in Russia. He’s using the word ‘patsy’ because someone set him up knowing his background. He was tricked by someone. Patsy means conspiracy. 

From the preponderance of the evidence that has come out since the WC, that rings true to me.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[David Von Pein]

4 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

From my POV, the “commie fanatic, and sociopathic loser who just wanted to be somebody” was telling the WORLD he was NOT involved in the shooting but had been framed.

But listen to Oswald's ENTIRE Patsy statement, Michaleen. Who is it that Oswald is saying here is turning him into a patsy? Or don't you think these two sentences, which were uttered one right after the other by LHO, should be connected in any way at all?....

"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!"

 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

But listen to Oswald's ENTIRE Patsy statement, Michaleen. Who is it that Oswald is saying here is turning him into a patsy? Or don't you think these two sentences, which were uttered one right after the other by LHO, should be connected in any way at all?....

"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!"

 

Again it’s all perspective. From mine, he’s exactly right - he WAS taken in because he lived in the Soviet Union. His background is EXACTLY why he was chosen as the patsy.

[David Von Pein]

2 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Again it’s all perspective. From mine, he’s exactly right - he WAS taken in because he lived in the Soviet Union. His background is EXACTLY why he was chosen as the patsy.

So, you do think the DPD knew---as of 1:51 PM CST on 11/22/63---about Oswald having lived in Russia from 1959 to 1962? Is that right, Michaleen?

 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

13 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So, you do think the DPD knew---as of 1:51 PM CST on 11/22/63---about Oswald having lived in Russia from 1959 to 1962? Is that right, Michaleen?

 

No but LHO was speaking from a broader context for the media. Remember how Fritz felt he had been trained in answering questions under interrogation.

Again, if you don’t buy the official line and follow the evidence since the WC, LHO was an important intel asset used by the CIA, FBI and others. He knew his way around the spooks on all sides - Russia, Cuba and US. He knew propaganda and media.

This is LHO telling the world through the media he was set up without saying more than he needs to or wants to at that time. He would not have been framed without his communist background. So yes, from his perspective, they ARE taking him cuz he lived in Russia. It was the reason he was chosen as the patsy and he knows it. He knew it the minute he had a gun pointed in his direction in the break room.

If you make that interpretation, then you also realize he’s a marked man and the Ruby murder is no surprise.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Ron Ege]

4 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

It’s a fact that LHO told the world he was a patsy. That means conspiracy. I didn’t bring it up - he did 60 years ago.

Amazing he can sneak a rifle into his workplace, assemble it, go undetected  on a floor with people, have a plan to run down stairs after the shooting and appear calm but no escape plan. Was he clever or dumb? Think he’d have to be pretty clever for all that and unbelievable that a plan of escape wouldn’t follow. And if he thought he needed a pistol for protection, seems like he’d have it with him.

Michaleen, thanks.

Relative to the JFKA, I am first reminded of part of Churchill's quote: ". . .  a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma . . ."  After near 60 years, the picture is somewhat clearer, but still there is still that ring of truth.  

And then also relative to the assassination, Donald Rumsfeld: "We know what we know, we know what we don't know, but we don't know what we don't know."  

In deciding to be a CBr (Conspiracy Believer) or a NCBr (Non-Conspiracy Believer) (my interest in the JFA began in 1967, when I read SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS), I eventually had to ask myself, considering the entirety of Oswald's biography, simply beginning with his USMC enlistment and continuing up to the moment Ruby killed him, what do I believe was the most likely way, his bona fides, which eventually built his rather impressive resume, came about?

What came to mind was the Infinite Monkey Theorem. 

As a 17 years old high school drop-out, what is more believable as to how that roadmap became laid out, from the day Oswald raised his right hand to that day he died, just seven years later?

1.  He independently planned/developed, managed, and executed all the actions he took and the myriad of things that he accomplished, including the assassination?

                                                          Or

2.  Others, along the way assisted him - by way of indoctrination, training, and education, and "handling" - which enabled him to function as a low level intelligence operative for some years - until eventually, he was manipulated into the position of "fall guy" for the JFKA?

You are so right.

Reporter: "Did you shoot the president?"

Oswald: "No. They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union."

Reporter: "What time did you leave the building?"

Oswald: "I'm just a patsy."

I do leave the door open to the possibility, as some here have suggested, that Oswald was hoodwinked into becoming part of a false-flag operation and was double crossed.

When it comes to the JFKA and deciding to be a CBr or NCBR, I would think, figuratively of course, most here subscribe to the old adage: "I'm from Missouri.  Show me" - seeking only the truth.

That said, two people can be shown/be aware of the same exact information and come to a different conclusion.  Either because they're each from a "different part of Missouri" - or more likely due to each one's unique, individual Frame Of Reference (FOR) developed over a lifetime.

The give and take here is always informative, in some way or another, and often, as a bonus, extremely entertaining.  

I thank you all, for that!

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Ron Ege