BANG........BANG-BANG

[Pat Speer]

Since echoes keep echoing back...

From patspeer.com Chapter 9:

 

When one reads a rarely-cited HSCA analysis of the way gunshots are heard in Dealey Plaza, one can see for oneself that it is indeed fairly easy to distinguish shots from echoes in Dealey Plaza. The writer of this report, Harvard Psychoacoustics Professor David Green, makes a point of stating that although his hearing was impaired in his left ear, and he was unable to hear the echoes with the clarity of the trained observers, he was nonetheless able to localize the shots based on their initial blast with a similar degree of accuracy as the experts. In the report, the trained observers state that there is a strong echo from the Post Office Annex on the south side of the plaza that comes a second after a shot fired from the TSBD. They said it was readily distinguishable as an echo, but that someone on the knoll hearing this echo might misinterpret the original source of the sound as coming from an area directly behind himself. OK, so that could be an explanation as to why the witnesses on the knoll were incorrect, but what about those in front of the TSBD? Well, the report goes on to say that it would be difficult for someone standing in front of the TSBD to immediately localize a sound high overhead, and that some of the witnesses may have localized on a subsequent echo coming 8/10 of a second later from the area of the overpass “especially if the rifle had been fired from well within the TSBD.”

This disclaimer indicates that Dr. Green didn’t really believe his offered explanation, as he knew or should have known that the rifle in the TSBD was seen sticking out the window and that the window was not open sufficiently high enough for someone to fire from back inside the building. Similarly, since the theoretical ability of a lone sniper to shoot accurately from this window is based upon his use of the boxes stacked in front of the window for support, this statement argues against a lone gunman’s ability to shoot 3 accurate shots from the sniper’s nest without his giving away his position to a far greater degree than actually occurred. This disclaimer, therefore, can be taken as yet another argument for shots or sounds coming from more than one location, as a lone sniper shooting from the sixth floor window should have been more readily identifiable. Indeed, in his 9-11-78 appearance before the committee, Green made this point abundantly clear.

Early in his testimony, he offered: "when you are situated immediately under the Texas School Book Depository, which was our general location for the second sequence of shots, two things are rather confusing. First of all, the N wave comes right over your head so you tend to localize the source directly over your head or on occasion you directly localize the source in whatever direction you were facing. You could, for example, move your head into different directions. I once looked down Elm Street in this direction fairly well convinced that the sound came from this direction, and the other observers did likewise, pointed their heads in different directions and said that that influenced their judgments. Also when you are in this location the sound sweeps down the building and the apparent source of the sound is rather large, probably because it scattered off the regular surface of the building. That was caused by the blast wave." He was then asked if this confusion caused his observers to incorrectly identify the source of any of the shots, and responded "They certainly made some inaccurate responses. I would say in the order of 10 percent."

Well, this suggests it really wasn't that confusing. And sure enough, Dr. Green summed up his tests as follows: “there are certain locations that are best for observing certain shots and in the general region of the book depository, right on the street beneath it, in our opinion it was extremely easy to tell it came from the book. There was a massive sound to the right and rear that sort of crawled down the building, presumably due to scatter on the regular surface of the building and it was quite evident.”

Unstated but implied in Green’s report is his knowledge that 11 of the 14 witnesses in this “general region” in front of the depository, including those on its front steps, nevertheless believed the shots came from somewhere else, with 9 pointing west, the direction of the railroad yards and the knoll. Green’s attempts to account for this anomaly by suggesting that the rifle was fired from well within the building, as opposed to the more logical possibility that the bullets were undercharged in order to create less noise—which was believed to have been beyond the “lone nut” Oswald’s capabilities-- or that the witnesses were simply responding to the last sound they heard, which came from the west, is nevertheless informative, as it indicates a second rifle firing from well within either the Dal-Tex or County Records buildings would not necessarily have been interpreted as coming from those locations, even if the weapon were not equipped with a silencer.

But that is not all the report has to offer. Although, strangely, no rapid fire sequences with shots alternating between the grassy knoll and the TSBD were attempted for the study, the witnesses were able to distinguish isolated shots between the locations with relative ease, with over 85% accuracy, including pistol shots from the knoll and rifle shots from well within the TSBD. When one looks only at the results of the rifle shots fired from the window and any shot fired from the knoll, one sees that the observers correctly identified the source 73 out of 80 times, no matter where they stood in Dealey Plaza. When one looks only at the results gleaned from the observers while they stood near the knoll, one sees they correctly identified the source of the shots 26 out of 26 times, claiming that the un-silenced shots fired were readily identifiable as coming from the stockade fence, which argues against a shot coming from that location, as most the witnesses nearby, including Abraham Zapruder, believed the shots came from somewhere further back. (Why they failed to perform tests using silenced weapons is never explained.) When one looks only at the results gleaned from the observers while they stood on the street in front of the Depository, in addition, it reveals they correctly identified the source 18 of 20 times.

These actual results reveal that the report’s musings about people being confused by echoes on the knoll and shock waves in front of the TSBD was so much hooey, offered most likely so that the HSCA would have the option of defending the Warren Commission’s conclusions. Instead, the results reveal it’s fairly easy to identify the source of a shot fired in Dealey Plaza under normal circumstances. And yet the single-assassin theorists maintain that the 7 out of 9 witnesses between the knoll and the limousine who heard shots from behind them were wrong, in a location where the observers were right 26 out of 26 times, and also that the 5 out of 6 witnesses on the North side of Elm who said shots came from the west, were wrong, in a location where the observers were right 18 of 20 times. These results indicate that it is the single-assassin theorists who are wrong, yet again.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Joe Bauer]

Just a shout out of thanks to posters who use the larger bolder print type on the forum now as Gill J. does.

I almost have to use a magnifying glass to read the smallest print types here anymore.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

I know this mathematical question point has been looked at and studied a thousand times but I ask it again.

Watching the Zapruder film in real time...how many seconds elapsed from the moment JFK was hit in the back ( or front) with the first shot...to the head shot?

Counting the seconds myself it seems at least 3 to 4 seconds ( maybe even 5?) as first JFK is jolted upward and then reacts with pulling his balled-up fists to his throat, gasping for air, shooting a glance toward Jackie, Jackie then notices JFK in distress, reaches out and grabs him and begins pulling him closer to her and while continuing to look at him with grave concern shock, a split second later...the head shot hits.

All that JFK and Jackie movement did not occur in just a two second time frame.

A three to 4 second time frame between the first shot and second is way off any "Bang-Bang" time frame described scenario.

Again, clap your hands and count three to 4 seconds before clapping them again.

That's a long pause. Longer than "Bang-Bang" or even "Bang - two seconds - Bang."

See and count the seconds yourself:

0:32NOW PLAYING

 

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Zapruder Frames

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Charles Blackmon]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

 

A three to 4 second time frame between the first shot and second is way off any "Bang-Bang" time frame described scenario.

 

Joe this is true however this presumes the SBT scenario is true, which I vehemently disagree with. There was another shot in there that got GJC, after the first hit on JFK.

[Jake Hammond]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

There were hundreds of people in Dealey Plaza. Name the witness who heard a sonic crack.

Thats my point, they didn't, not knowingly. 

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Again, a THANK YOU to those posters here who do us old half-blind geezers the favor of printing their comments in half to 1 inch high bold type.

As Dan Rather would say ..."Courage."

 

 

I type in larger print because at 69, I too have a problem seeing the default print size. I need to print larger because I'm a terrible typist and need to check and correct my spelling. Nice to know it's appreciated.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Gil Jesus

[Gerry Down]

14 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

I type in larger print because at 69, I too have a problem seeing the default print size. I need to print larger because I'm a terrible typist and need to check and correct my spelling. Nice to know it's appreciated.

Why not get a larger monitor instead? It would make your life easier. 

Also, if you press "CTRL" and "+" at the same time on your keyboard, you can magnify the screen. This would enable you to see the same size text that everyone else is using. 

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

I know this mathematical question point has been looked at and studied a thousand times but I ask it again.

Watching the Zapruder film in real time...how many seconds elapsed from the moment JFK was hit in the back ( or front) with the first shot...to the head shot?

Counting the seconds myself it seems at least 3 to 4 seconds ( maybe even 5?) as first JFK is jolted upward and then reacts with pulling his balled-up fists to his throat, gasping for air, shooting a glance toward Jackie, Jackie then notices JFK in distress, reaches out and grabs him and begins pulling him closer to her and while continuing to look at him with grave concern shock, a split second later...the head shot hits.

All that JFK and Jackie movement did not occur in just a two second time frame.

A three to 4 second time frame between the first shot and second is way off any "Bang-Bang" time frame described scenario.

Between Z224 and Z313 is 89 frames. At 18.3 frames per second, that equals 4.9 seconds. 

[Chris Bristow]

9 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Chris, you make a great point about echoes. If the witnesses were hearing echoes, why didn't they hear an echo with the FIRST shot ? They heard the first shot, a noticeable pause with no mention of an echo, then two distinct shots timed close together. Echoes are reflections of sound. How could Lee Bowers hear an echo when the TSBD building was between his tower and the alleged sniper's nest ? How did the sound waves penetrate the building to allow him to hear the reflection of the sound off of the buildings on Houston St. ?

And it's a fact that the farther way you are from the solid object the sound wave hits, the longer it takes for an echo to return to you. So how is it that the witnesses in different locations all heard the same sequence ?

Those witnesses didn't hear an echo.

 

Something I've never considered before is maybe a shot from the West could bounce off the TSB and cause people to think a shot came from there.

Just as an example  regarding the timing, if two shots were fired from the TSB and the Knoll simultaneously most would hear about a quarter of a second delay. Someone at Teague's position would hear the biggest delay while people standing a  little east of the Stemmons sign would hear the two shots as one.

When I hear a Sonic rifle crack it sounds like it lasts at least a quarter of a second. Since the bullet is cracking the whole time it travels maybe what we hear is several cracks together. If the sound lasts a quarter of a second then a quarter second delay would probably not even be noticed and it would be heard as a single shot. There are so many variables to the ear Witness accounts that it is a bit surprising that we mostly have just two locations reported.

[Chris Bristow]

20 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Why not get a larger monitor instead? It would make your life easier. 

Also, if you press "CTRL" and "+" at the same time on your keyboard, you can magnify the screen. This would enable you to see the same size text that everyone else is using. 

I would do that but it drives me crazy to have to keep scrolling left and right because the magnified text doesn't fit on the screen.

It seems most of us here are getting pretty old. It used to be that the best advice for macular degeneration was to flood the reading material with as much light as possible. I wonder if increasing the brightness of the screen would give similar or less benefits.

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I find the bang......bang bang evidence persuasive. I believe what it reveals can be overstated. It doesn't reveal there was only three shots, it doesn't reveal the timing of the shots, in my opinion the two shots together could be between 1 second and 0.1 seconds apart (or even closer). Its important to note that the ear witnesses often mention the difference between the first shot (a 'firecracker') and the others. If they mean it sounded more like 'Kerrrr- ack' then that could be two shots incredibly close together. 

 

Another point I have problems with is the idea of shots missing their target. I would suggest that, in the range in the Plaza, and at the speed of the Limo, no marksman would miss their target. A decoy shooter might just be firing over the car?

 

I am very impressed with Pat Speer's analysis of witnesses to the shooting. I wonder if anyone has ever considered doing the same analysis with witnesses to the large BOH wound? (sorry Mr Speer)

Edited January 25, 2023 by Eddy Bainbridge

[Joe Bauer]

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Between Z224 and Z313 is 89 frames. At 18.3 frames per second, that equals 4.9 seconds. 

Thank you!

[Joe Bauer]

The following video interview of Dealey Plaza witness Carolyn Walthers is interesting regards her seeing two men with guns in an upper floor TXSBD window just before JFK was driven underneath.

At the 3 minute and 20 second mark of the video, listen to Walther's recollection of the 2nd and 3rd shots.

"The second and third shots were right together."

Notice the first film footage in the video is being shot looking out from the sniper's perch, 6th floor window down to the exact spot Walthers was standing when she saw the armed men in the window. On the sidewalk of Houston just under the TXSBD building.

I am amazed at how close Walthers was to the 6th floor window.

Of course she could get a clear view of someone in that window.

4:05NOW PLAYING

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Witness Carolyn Walthers. 2 Interviews.

953 views2 years ago

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I find the bang......bang bang evidence persuasive. I believe what it reveals can be overstated. It doesn't reveal there was only three shots, it doesn't reveal the timing of the shots, in my opinion the two shots together could be between 1 second and 0.1 seconds apart (or even closer). Its important to note that the ear witnesses often mention the difference between the first shot (a 'firecracker') and the others. If they mean it sounded more like 'Kerrrr- ack' then that could be two shots incredibly close together. 

 

Another point I have problems with is the idea of shots missing their target. I would suggest that, in the range in the Plaza, and at the speed of the Limo, no marksman would miss their target. A decoy shooter might just be firing over the car?

 

I am very impressed with Pat Speer's analysis of witnesses to the shooting. I wonder if anyone has ever considered doing the same analysis with witnesses to the large BOH wound? (sorry Mr Speer)

I go through the head wound witnesses in chapters 18c and 18d on my website. From doing so, I came to realize that the blow-out wound low on the back of the head purported by numerous CTs is nonsense, 

Recently, some have taken to claiming my argument is a straw-man argument, and that the BOH wound purported by the CT community was not low on the back of the head.

But that's incorrect. If you read the chapters you will see that many of the most prominent CTs and best-selling authors have claimed the "actual" location of the large head wound was at a location at odds with where the witnesses have claimed to see the wound, and that numerous deceptions were employed to "sell" this lower location. 

[Mark Ulrik]

11 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I type in larger print because at 69, I too have a problem seeing the default print size. I need to print larger because I'm a terrible typist and need to check and correct my spelling. Nice to know it's appreciated.

No, it makes posts harder to read and looks incredibly ugly. You're punishing the rest of us because you have a problem.