Oliver Stone's Destiny Betrayed and the 544 Camp Street Handbill

[Steve Roe]

Oliver Stone used a fake 544 Camp Street handbill in his film, Destiny Betrayed. 

Non-existent fact checking as usual. Another huge blunder. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-three

[Bill Brown]

16 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Oliver Stone used a fake 544 Camp Street handbill in his film, Destiny Betrayed. 

Non-existent fact checking as usual. Another huge blunder. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-three

 

 [sound of crickets chirping]

 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

 [sound of crickets chirping]

 

Yep, seems nobody wants to challenge it, Bill. And how can they? It's obvious the 544 Camp St. on the Oswald handbills are fake. We will probably not find out who did it, but it's obvious it was photoshopped using a photo from the JFK movie showing a stamp. 

Here's the 4th in the handbill series showing Jeff Morley using the fake handbill in his press conference. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-four

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Yep, seems nobody wants to challenge it, Bill. And how can they? It's obvious the 544 Camp St. on the Oswald handbills are fake. We will probably not find out who did it, but it's obvious it was photoshopped using a photo from the JFK movie showing a stamp. 

Here's the 4th in the handbill series showing Jeff Morley using the fake handbill in his press conference. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-four

I'm not questioning the handbill, but I'm not sure that Litwin is correct on the 544 Camp St. thing:

...anybody going to 544 Camp Street in 1963 would find the offices of the Hotel, Motel and Restaurant Workers’ Union and the Amalgamated Association of Street Electric Railway and Motor Coach Employees of America. They would not find the Cuban Revolutionary Council (they had been evicted several months earlier) and they would not find Guy Banister.

Litwin's source is the HSCA report which is based strictly on the belated recollections of Sam Newman. Litwin does not tell his readers that the next paragraph of the report states:

The committee investigation produced no evidence of any connection between Oswald and any person or organization occupying the Newman Building in 1963 except for that involving Guy Banister's private detective agency. (HSCA XIII, 473) 

Litwin is trying to make it sound like the offices at 544 Camp St. were inaccessible from 531 Lafayette and vice versa, but is that really true? The 1960 New Orleans City Directory suggests otherwise:

Were any new walls put in between 1960 and 1963? I kind of doubt it. To get post-1960 directories you have to go to either the Tulane, NOLA City, or Jazz Museum libraries, but last time I checked the directory from 1963 was missing from all of them. 

[Gerry Down]

31 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I'm not questioning the handbill, but I'm not sure that Litwin is correct on the 544 Camp St. thing:

...anybody going to 544 Camp Street in 1963 would find the offices of the Hotel, Motel and Restaurant Workers’ Union and the Amalgamated Association of Street Electric Railway and Motor Coach Employees of America. They would not find the Cuban Revolutionary Council (they had been evicted several months earlier) and they would not find Guy Banister.

Litwin's source is the HSCA report which is based strictly on the belated recollections of Sam Newman. Litwin does not tell his readers that the next paragraph of the report states:

The committee investigation produced no evidence of any connection between Oswald and any person or organization occupying the Newman Building in 1963 except for that involving Guy Banister's private detective agency. (HSCA XIII, 473) 

Litwin is trying to make it sound like the offices at 544 Camp St. were inaccessible from 531 Lafayette and vice versa, but is that really true? The 1960 New Orleans City Directory suggests otherwise:

Were any new walls put in between 1960 and 1963? I kind of doubt it. To get post-1960 directories you have to go to either the Tulane, NOLA City, or Jazz Museum libraries, but last time I checked the directory from 1963 was missing from all of them. 

According to Joseph Newbrough, the top floor was one large meeting space. This might be a common area which all the offices could use for their meetings, i'm not sure. I wonder if an office at the Newman building could hold two addresses - one for the office in the Newman building where the day-to-day work was carried out and a different address for the top floor meeting hall where members of the public could come for a meeting. 

Though my understanding is that Guy Banister had all the ground floor along 531 Lafayette street to himself. This should mean all other offices would carry the 544 Camp Street address as this was the door from which they would go in. Of course Banister did not move to the Newman building until I think 1961 or something and the above image is from 1960. 

This is assuming there was not a staircase on the 531 Lafayette street side that went up from Banisters ground floor office to some of the other offices upstairs, in which case some offices in the 2nd floor etc might be accessing their office from such a staircase on the 531 Lafayette street side. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Cory Santos]

21 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Oliver Stone used a fake 544 Camp Street handbill in his film, Destiny Betrayed. 

Non-existent fact checking as usual. Another huge blunder. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jfk-destiny-betrayed-misleads-viewers-on-oswald-s-hands-off-cuba-handbills-part-three

I gave it a read and had to stop.   Instead of professional discussion and argument it is a hit piece on Stone and DiEugino. Hardly scholarly work. 
I thought we could not post for others?   Why doesn’t he come here and post and debate?  Seems like recently several of you do not debate when you post, rather, you just cite to his blog or writings.  I will listen to both sides of this debate but your heroic author’s writings are tiresome, un-informative and reads like a broken record. 

[Tom Gram]

24 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

According to Joseph Newbrough, the top floor was one large meeting space. This might be a common area which all the offices could use for their meetings, i'm not sure. I wonder if an office at the Newman building could hold two addresses - one for the office in the Newman building where the day-to-day work was carried out and a different address for the top floor meeting hall where members of the public could come for a meeting. 

The Communication Workers of America used 531 Lafayette and 544 Camp interchangeably, which is solid evidence that both doors could be used to access their office in the Newman Building in 1960. If the top floor was a common area accessible from both sides, the offices would be accessible from both sides too.

The 1960 Directory has Banister's office listed as 404 St. Charles - did Banister end up renting the same space as the Communication Workers? Were there any other offices with a door on 531 Lafayette besides Banister's? I think it's pretty clear that both doors could be used to access the same place. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Steve Roe]

59 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

The Communication Workers of America used 531 Lafayette and 544 Camp interchangeably, which is solid evidence that both doors could be used to access their office in the Newman Building in 1960. If the top floor was a common area accessible from both sides, the offices would be accessible from both sides too.

The 1960 Directory has Banister's office listed as 404 St. Charles - did Banister end up renting the same space as the Communication Workers? Were there any other offices with a door on 531 Lafayette besides Banister's? I think it's pretty clear that both doors could be used to access the same place. 

Tom, regarding access from 544 Camp to 531 Lafayette, no access other than outside. 

Here's some relevant info on that in another blog post. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-david-ferrie-speak-to-clay-shaw-on-the-telephone-from-guy-banister-s-office

Regarding the Communication Workers Local 3410, in July 1962 they were located at 2614 Tulane Ave. So, if they were located on 531 Lafayette, then they moved. Source: Times Picayune newspaper, July 1962.

Tom according to the HSCA, both the CRC and Banister were located in the Balter Building (not that far away, corner of St. Charles and Camp) in February 1961. Then in early 1962, both CRC (Arcacha Smith) and Banister moved to the Newman Building. CRC had an office at 544 Camp, but just for a few months. Banister of course located in the 531 Lafayette side. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Steve Roe
Additional info

[Steve Roe]

36 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

I gave it a read and had to stop.   Instead of professional discussion and argument it is a hit piece on Stone and DiEugino. Hardly scholarly work. 
I thought we could not post for others?   Why doesn’t he come here and post and debate?  Seems like recently several of you do not debate when you post, rather, you just cite to his blog or writings.  I will listen to both sides of this debate but your heroic author’s writings are tiresome, un-informative and reads like a broken record. 

Well, that's your choice. I did help on that blog article tracking down the fake handbill. Sorry I can't make everyone happy here. 

If you don't find value in this, then others will. 

[Guest]

This is from a picture I saved, someone had posted it here some time ago. I believe it was a situation from the 1950's,

it doesn't show the entrance/staircase on Camp Str 544.  so... nope...  

But I remember seeing a picture from the inside of the building somewhere, anyone ?

AIs it correct Banister moved from the Balter building to Lafayette in June 1960, pretty much the same time Sergio Arcacha Smith  CFCC (Crusade to Free Cuba Committee) moved from Balter to Camp Str ?  And the Cuban Revolutionary Council CRC was from October 1961 to February 1962 I believe.

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gerry Down]

Joseph Newbrough explains the layout of the Newman building in the below videos. He specifically says there was no stairs to get from Banisters office to the 2nd floor. I presume that means that the only way to get to the 2nd floor was through the 544 Camp street door, or through the external fire escape on the Lafayette side of the building:

Youtube Link 1: https://youtu.be/BJoZvtKtuos

Youtube Link 2: https://youtu.be/qEfYD-3yT3Y

[Steve Roe]

2 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Joseph Newbrough explains the layout of the Newman building in the below videos. He specifically says there was no stairs to get from Banisters office to the 2nd floor. I presume that means that the only way to get to the 2nd floor was through the 544 Camp street door, or through the external fire escape on the Lafayette side of the building:

Youtube Link 1: https://youtu.be/BJoZvtKtuos

Youtube Link 2: https://youtu.be/qEfYD-3yT3Y

Thanks Gerry. 

[Guest]

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

The Communication Workers of America used 531 Lafayette and 544 Camp interchangeably, which is solid evidence that both doors could be used to access their office in the Newman Building in 1960. If the top floor was a common area accessible from both sides, the offices would be accessible from both sides too.

The 1960 Directory has Banister's office listed as 404 St. Charles - did Banister end up renting the same space as the Communication Workers? Were there any other offices with a door on 531 Lafayette besides Banister's? I think it's pretty clear that both doors could be used to access the same place. 

 

Tom, I think the upper one (Camp) is the "HQ" of the CWA, the other on Lafayette is the New Orleans local 3410 "division/chapter/...".   I can see them having 2 separate offices (and a lot of people entering the wrong one 😃 )

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Steve Roe said:

Tom, regarding access from 544 Camp to 531 Lafayette, no access other than outside. 

Here's some relevant info on that in another blog post. 

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-david-ferrie-speak-to-clay-shaw-on-the-telephone-from-guy-banister-s-office

Regarding the Communication Workers Local 3410, in July 1962 they were located at 2614 Tulane Ave. So, if they were located on 531 Lafayette, then they moved. Source: Times Picayune newspaper, July 1962.

Tom according to the HSCA, both the CRC and Banister were located in the Balter Building (not that far away, corner of St. Charles and Camp) in February 1961. Then in early 1962, both CRC (Arcacha Smith) and Banister moved to the Newman Building. CRC had an office at 544 Camp, but just for a few months. Banister of course located in the 531 Lafayette side. 

Right, but in 1960 the Communications Workers address was 531 Lafayette and 544 Camp St. Does it not seems a little odd that a Union would be working out of two completely separate, unconnected office spaces in the same building? Jean Paul's suggestion could be true based on the Directory entries, but I don't think this is a settled issue - regardless of what Joseph Newbrough said about second floor access or what's reflected on an old drawing. If anyone has Gus Russo's "Live by the Sword" book, it might be worth checking the footnote for p. 197 where he says "Few offices in the Newman Building had entrances on both..."

https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q="Newman Building" and layout

Another possibility is that tenants at 531 Lafayette could receive mail at 544 Camp St., in which case it doesn't really matter if the offices were connected or not.

Newman said the CRC took their "several sets of keys" with them to 544 Camp when they moved out and never returned them. Newman also said that "Guy Banister was well acquainted with this organization". 

Also, Arnesto Rodriguez Jr. appears to have attempted to rent 544 Camp for "night Spanish classes" in the Summer of '63, which is another can of worms.  

The most innocent lone assassin explanation possible for Oswald's use of 544 Camp for the FPCC is that Oswald came across some old CRC flyers, which Sam Newman said were left in the office and donated to the Salvation Army or something, and decided to use the same address to make his pamphlets seem more legit. However, based on the available evidence, I think it's pretty reasonable to suspect there's more to it than that.