Jack Ruby at Parkland Hospital

[Kevin Balch]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Seth Kantor had absolutely nothing in his background that would indicate a man of confused thought, especially the very day he was immersed in the middle of the biggest news event of his life.

His psychological make up was that of a very intelligent, mentally stable and highly responsible professional career person.

Ruby on the other hand exhibited different forms of mental instability his whole life.

The dismissing of Kantor's Jack Ruby encounter at Parkland testimony was one of the top 3, 4 or 5 most suspicious ( and credibility damaging ) actions of the Warren Commission in their final summation report imo.

 

 

You don’t believe Ruby was in his car at the time bawling over hearing the news on the radio that JFK was dead as in the movie “Ruby and Oswald”?

 

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

You don’t believe Ruby was in his car at the time bawling over hearing the news on the radio that JFK was dead as in the movie “Ruby and Oswald”?

Jack Ruby quotes:

"Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts of what occurred, my motives. The people who had so much to gain, and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world."

"When I mentioned about Adlai Stevenson, if he was vice president there would never have been an assassination of our beloved President Kennedy."

"I have been used for a purpose, and there will be a certain tragic occurrence happening if you don't take my testimony and somehow vindicate me so my people don't suffer because of what I have done."

"It may not be too late, whatever happens, if our President, Lyndon Johnson, knew the truth from me. But if I am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing."

 

 

 

[Kevin Balch]

32 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Jack Ruby quotes:

"Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts of what occurred, my motives. The people who had so much to gain, and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world."

"When I mentioned about Adlai Stevenson, if he was vice president there would never have been an assassination of our beloved President Kennedy."

"I have been used for a purpose, and there will be a certain tragic occurrence happening if you don't take my testimony and somehow vindicate me so my people don't suffer because of what I have done."

"It may not be too late, whatever happens, if our President, Lyndon Johnson, knew the truth from me. But if I am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing."

 

 

 

This can be interpreted several ways.

1. LBJ was behind the assassination and benefitted from it. But why would LBJ need to know the truth from Jack Ruby?

2. Ruby as the organized crime figure leads into “the Mafia did it” theories.

3. Ruby as a Zionist (several Jewish organized crime figures were Zionists though I’m unaware if Jack Ruby expressed his sentiments on the topic) leads to the ‘Israel did it” theory.

Regarding #3, here is an interesting 1961 communication from Alai Stevenson II regarding refugees from Gaza (sound familiar?) to the State Dept.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v17/d60

Did the son bear the sins of his father?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/1986/10/05/israeli-lobby-fighting-stevenson/

If Adlai Stevenson was not sufficiently pro-Israel, would a vice president Stevenson make it pointless to assassinate JFK under the Israel did it theory?

 

Edited April 16 by Kevin Balch

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Richard Bertolino said:

The Warren Commission did not know about Applin seeing Ruby at the Texas Theatre. If they had known, they probably would have believed Kantor. So what if Ruby had been at Parkland. It wouldn't have  meant a thing.

If one believes Seth Kantor, which I do, it meant and still means Ruby lied to the Warren Commission.  Why?  Because he didn't want to incriminate himself by having to know immediately if JFK was dead?

I've read somewhere before that Ruby drove really fast pretty much all the time, that he had several speeding tickets to prove it if I remember right.  He also knew Dallas very well given his activities.  He could have rushed to Parkland immediately after the assassination tugged on Kantor's coat, then left, still not knowing for sure.  He knew a lot of people in Dallas.  It's not impossible he knew someone at Parkland who had seen KFK brought in or someone that knew someone who did and had heard he was dead.

I think in that day and time (much less traffic) JR could have been from Parkland to the Texas Theater in about 10 minutes.  I've been that route before.  Not timing it but on the way to see Oswald's rooming house, where Tippit was shot and the TT.  If Applin was telling the truth, years later, Ruby was there for a purpose.  To eliminate Oswald before he ended up in police custody, and he missed his chance?

[Richard Bertolino]

6 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

If one believes Seth Kantor, which I do, it meant and still means Ruby lied to the Warren Commission.  Why?  Because he didn't want to incriminate himself by having to know immediately if JFK was dead?

I've read somewhere before that Ruby drove really fast pretty much all the time, that he had several speeding tickets to prove it if I remember right.  He also knew Dallas very well given his activities.  He could have rushed to Parkland immediately after the assassination tugged on Kantor's coat, then left, still not knowing for sure.  He knew a lot of people in Dallas.  It's not impossible he knew someone at Parkland who had seen KFK brought in or someone that knew someone who did and had heard he was dead.

I think in that day and time (much less traffic) JR could have been from Parkland to the Texas Theater in about 10 minutes.  I've been that route before.  Not timing it but on the way to see Oswald's rooming house, where Tippit was shot and the TT.  If Applin was telling the truth, years later, Ruby was there for a purpose.  To eliminate Oswald before he ended up in police custody, and he missed his chance?

Since we're giving opinions here, I think Kantor was  LYING and was an FBI asset. The intent of his lie was to give Ruby an alibi for the Applin sighting, which the FBI knew about, probably from Ruby himself. But since the Warren Commission did not know about the Applin sighting, they would rather have Ruby being honest, since everything he told them supports their Official Story. Better to have Ruby be honest and crazy than to introduce doubt...unless Ruby needs an alibi for the Applin sighting.

[Ron Bulman]

49 minutes ago, Richard Bertolino said:

Since we're giving opinions here, I think Kantor was  LYING and was an FBI asset. The intent of his lie was to give Ruby an alibi for the Applin sighting, which the FBI knew about, probably from Ruby himself. But since the Warren Commission did not know about the Applin sighting, they would rather have Ruby being honest, since everything he told them supports their Official Story. Better to have Ruby be honest and crazy than to introduce doubt...unless Ruby needs an alibi for the Applin sighting.

Well, one of them was lying.  If you believe Ruby over Kantor that's your prerogative.  I freely admit that my comment on Ruby being able to get from Parkland to the TT in about 10 minutes is speculation on my part.  That he was in both places is not, we have witnesses to both occurrences. 

We now know Ruby had previously been an FBI informant at one point.  Is there any evidence Kantor was an FBI asset?   I've never read such, can you point me to it?  

[Richard Bertolino]

11 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Well, one of them was lying.  If you believe Ruby over Kantor that's your prerogative.  I freely admit that my comment on Ruby being able to get from Parkland to the TT in about 10 minutes is speculation on my part.  That he was in both places is not, we have witnesses to both occurrences. 

We now know Ruby had previously been an FBI informant at one point.  Is there any evidence Kantor was an FBI asset?   I've never read such, can you point me to it?  

There is evidence of Kantor being an FBI asset through analysis of evidence, not through some document saying so. I don't know of anything that might convince you. The evolving times of when Kantor supposedly saw Ruby is such evidence; Kantor seems to adjust his timing to fit an evolving Official Story about the time of Oswald's arrest. But you would have to agree with my analysis to be convinced. Also, the Vinvent Drain report of his interview with Kantor can be interpreted. Again, my analysis would need to be accepted. People only believe such evidence if they find it themselves.

Edited April 16 by Richard Bertolino
typo

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Richard Bertolino said:

Since we're giving opinions here, I think Kantor was  LYING and was an FBI asset. The intent of his lie was to give Ruby an alibi for the Applin sighting, which the FBI knew about, probably from Ruby himself. But since the Warren Commission did not know about the Applin sighting, they would rather have Ruby being honest, since everything he told them supports their Official Story. Better to have Ruby be honest and crazy than to introduce doubt...unless Ruby needs an alibi for the Applin sighting.

Not a speck of evidence I am aware of that Kantor was an FBI asset, nor do you cite any even though making the allegation. Kantor was telling his Parkland sighting of Ruby from the beginning, I believe documented written by Kantor starting from as early as the first weekend, whereas Applin's claim to have seen Ruby in the Texas Theatre only became known years later. You say "the FBI knew about [it]" early but you cite no evidence for that. And "probably from Ruby himself" has no basis.

As for who Applin saw, it definitely was not Ruby, even if Applin mistakenly thought so, for this reason: In the Sixth Floor Museum oral history of Texas Theatre patron Jack Davis, which can be found on the Sixth Floor Museum site, Davis tells of an unnamed (by Jack Davis) patron sitting across the aisle from him in the exact, specific seat where Applin located his "Jack Ruby".

Well, the identity of the patron to whom Jack Davis referred, sitting precisely in the very seat Applin located his "Jack Ruby", is no mystery.

It was another theater patron that day named John Gibson, manager of the nearby Elko Camera store, 239 W. Jefferson. Here is Gibson's Warren Commission testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gibson.htm). 

What is missing is a photo of John Gibson, which would be interesting to see, to see how Applin could see Ruby on TV and mistakenly think John Gibson looked like Jack Ruby on TV. Remember how FBI agent Odum showed Marguerite Oswald a photo of that heavyset man in the Mexico City surveillance photo who was not Oswald, and Marguerite claimed forever after that that was a photo of Jack Ruby (it was not)? Same principle. 

But John Gibson is who that was, that Applin saw. Not Jack Ruby.

To which may be added: there were a lot of police officers in the Texas Theatre that day, and as is well known, half the police force (or whatever percentage it was) knew Jack Ruby, several officers of whom specifically are known to have known Ruby very well personally (e.g. Cunningham, Courson). If it really had been Jack Ruby there, somebody would have recognized him other than just Applin.

Applin saw Ruby on TV and simply made a mistaken identification from memory of some physical accidental resemblance. There was nothing to the Applin Jack Ruby claim, nor does it have anything to do with why Kantor said he saw Jack Ruby at Parkland.

Kantor said he saw Ruby at Parkland ... because he saw Ruby at Parkland.

Seth Kantor was an honest reporter.

Ruby was at Parkland.

It is a puzzle why the Warren Commission chose to say otherwise, against the evidence of Seth Kantor's highly credible witness. What comes to mind to me is that Ruby was there for some non-innocent reason, and it would open a can of worms for the Warren Commission to try to explain why he was there. Therefore, in the drive to wrap the case up around a LN Oswald killed two days later by an unplanned crime-of-passion LN Ruby, it was preferred in that narrative that Ruby not have been there. Therefore, that is what they wrote. Maybe there is a better explanation but that is my best guess as to why.  

[Richard Bertolino]

34 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Not a speck of evidence I am aware of that Kantor was an FBI asset, nor do you cite any even though making the allegation. Kantor was telling his Parkland sighting of Ruby from the beginning, I believe documented written by Kantor starting from as early as the first weekend, whereas Applin's claim to have seen Ruby in the Texas Theatre only became known years later. You say "the FBI knew about [it]" early but you cite no evidence for that. And "probably from Ruby himself" has no basis.

As for who Applin saw, it definitely was not Ruby, even if Applin mistakenly thought so, for this reason: In the Sixth Floor Museum oral history of Texas Theatre patron Jack Davis, which can be found on the Sixth Floor Museum site, Davis tells of an unnamed (by Jack Davis) patron sitting across the aisle from him in the exact, specific seat where Applin located his "Jack Ruby".

Well, the identity of the patron to whom Jack Davis referred, sitting precisely in the very seat Applin located his "Jack Ruby", is no mystery.

It was another theater patron that day named John Gibson, manager of the nearby Elko Camera store, 239 W. Jefferson. Here is Gibson's Warren Commission testimony, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gibson.htm). 

What is missing is a photo of John Gibson, which would be interesting to see, to see how Applin could see Ruby on TV and mistakenly think John Gibson looked like Jack Ruby on TV. Remember how FBI agent Odum showed Marguerite Oswald a photo of that heavyset man in the Mexico City surveillance photo who was not Oswald, and Marguerite claimed forever after that that was a photo of Jack Ruby (it was not)? Same principle. 

But John Gibson is who that was, that Applin saw. Not Jack Ruby.

To which may be added: there were a lot of police officers in the Texas Theatre that day, and as is well known, half the police force (or whatever percentage it was) knew Jack Ruby, several officers of whom specifically are known to have known Ruby very well personally (e.g. Cunningham, Courson). If it really had been Jack Ruby there, somebody would have recognized him other than just Applin.

Applin saw Ruby on TV and simply made a mistaken identification from memory of some physical accidental resemblance. There was nothing to the Applin Jack Ruby claim, nor does it have anything to do with why Kantor said he saw Jack Ruby at Parkland.

Kantor said he saw Ruby at Parkland ... because he saw Ruby at Parkland.

Seth Kantor was an honest reporter.

Ruby was at Parkland.

It is a puzzle why the Warren Commission chose to say otherwise, against the evidence of Seth Kantor's highly credible witness. What comes to mind to me is that Ruby was there for some non-innocent reason, and it would open a can of worms for the Warren Commission to try to explain why he was there. Therefore, in the drive to wrap the case up around a LN Oswald killed two days later by an unplanned crime-of-passion LN Ruby, it was preferred in that narrative that Ruby not have been there. Therefore, that is what they wrote. Maybe there is a better explanation but that is my best guess as to why.  

 

[Richard Bertolino]

It's more complicated than you make it out to be, and your certainty is not justified. But I don't need to waste my time. Kantor did change the time of his Ruby sighting and that time change aligns with the time of arrest change. If you know the evidence, you know that I am correct. Kantor was a good act, but he worked for the murderers. These guys were scheming and murdering before any of us were born. They aren't going to leave a document stating that they murdered JFK. The evidence must be interpreted.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Here is a write up on Kantor on Sparticus..https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKkantorS.htm

[Greg Doudna]

7 hours ago, Richard Bertolino said:

Kantor was a good act, but he worked for the murderers. These guys were scheming and murdering before any of us were born. 

Kantor "worked for the murderers ... scheming and murdering before any of us were born... ?"

That's a rather serious charge there Richard. Would you care to say why you think Kantor was involved in the assassination of Kennedy? Reasons for your belief? 

[Kevin Balch]

If Seth Kantor was an FBI asset, why would he even testify that he saw Jack Ruby at Parkland Hospital? While he had published his sighting shortly after the assassination and it had to be addressed, he could have simply been more equivocal in his testimony. And why did he continue to insist emphatically that he saw Ruby at Parkland?

Edited April 16 by Kevin Balch

[Greg Doudna]

[]

Edited April 17 by Greg Doudna

[Kevin Balch]

9 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Why do you think he was an FBI asset?

I don’t. I was arguing against the claim that he was.