Oswald and the Shot at Walker: Redressing the Balance

[Mark Knight]

A problem in this discussion is that bullet trajectory hasn't been considered.

While I haven't found trajectory information for the Winchester-Western cartridges, according to this source, the trajectory is likely somewhere between 2.8 inches to 3.1 inches HIGH at 100 YARDS. This suggests that at 100 FEET, the bullet trajectory is still rising. So at 100 feet, the bullet will undoubtedly be higher than the point of aim.

Source: 6.5x52 Carcano (chuckhawks.com)

 

[Mark Ulrik]

46 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

A problem in this discussion is that bullet trajectory hasn't been considered.

While I haven't found trajectory information for the Winchester-Western cartridges, according to this source, the trajectory is likely somewhere between 2.8 inches to 3.1 inches HIGH at 100 YARDS. This suggests that at 100 FEET, the bullet trajectory is still rising. So at 100 feet, the bullet will undoubtedly be higher than the point of aim.

Source: 6.5x52 Carcano (chuckhawks.com)

Yes, that's why I asked Steve for his opinion. The iron sights were apparently zeroed for 200 meters (not sure about the scope).

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Mark, I had to review that DPD case report again, been a long time since I studied it. But yes, it does say the backyard was on an upgrade in 1963. That is correct. So, my contemporary observation is not correct. But I didn't see it being any big decline or incline either. 

Yes, you have to take into account of the rifle muzzle to the window frame where the shot hit. I can't say with any certainty if it would be on a straight line, or downward or upward. 

After studying that case report again, the Detectives determined the nick (or chipped portion) of the lattice fence was near the top of the fence, through one of the 8" wide openings. I'm not sure of the height of the lattice fence, but I would speculate it was 5-6 foot high. That means the shooter (Oswald) was in a standing position when he fired the shot. If the trajectory of the bullet from the fence line was on a downward course, then I can still see it deflecting off the screen frame-window sash on hitting the wall in a downward course. 

This distance was estimated to be 100-120 feet. Walker called it 40 steps (an old term) which equates to around 100 feet. Using that distance, the sighting of the Ordnance Scope is of no consequence, providing it was sighted in at 100 yards.

This gets into speculation land why he missed.

My best guess is he felt pressured and may have rushed the shot somewhat. There were the two guys walking around in the LDS parking lot, and he might have noticed or heard them and rushed the shot, even though he used the lattice opening as a gun rest. Walker had his own explanation that through the scope with a lighted room background, he may not have seen the window frame clearly. Can't rule that out either. All in all, Oswald missed by an inch or so. 

A quick check with a friend of mine that owns the same model Carcano and side mounted scope, says yes, a shooter can see through an 8" opening. In fact, he showed me how the barrel, stock and scope can easily go through a smaller 6" opening. So absolutely his line of sight with the scope would work with the lattice fence opening. I think Oswald carefully planned this out ahead of time, casing the property, taking pictures and planning his escape route. 

Also, it's possible that Oswald may have been wearing the same dark clothes as in the backyard photos for nighttime concealability. He could have ditched those clothes later before he came home. I haven't seen any mention of those dark clothes in his property lists. 

Any way you look at it, Oswald was making a fast getaway. He didn't bother to take a few seconds and observe whether or not he hit Walker. And of course, he didn't work the bolt for a second shot, leaving the cartridge in the chamber which suggests to me that he sensed he might have rushed it for fear of being discovered. 

As far as the tired old "Steel Jacket" bullet controversy goes, it falls apart as the bullet retrieved by the DPD is the same bullet in NARA. I explain all that here: https://steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com/website/post/the-general-walker-bullet-real-or-fake

Why the cops described it that way, well some bullets are copper gilded on steel. 

 

 "All in all, Oswald missed by an inch or so"--SR

I have read the DPD reports, etc. 

Where does this estimate come from? 

If a slug has passed one inch from Walker's head...he would have thought "fireworks" outside of his home were a possible cause of the sound he heard? 

If Walker was missed by one inch...he only deduced he had been shot at after seeing a hole in the wall behind him? 

Would not Walker hear the thud or impact of the bullet in the wall right by his head, if it were a close shot? 

Something doesn't add up. 

I have never been able to nail down where on the wall the bullet entered--how high? How many feet from the floor? Is that recorded by the DPD? 

 

 

[Sean Coleman]

 

After reading GW’s testimony it turns out this is the window of the room he was sat in when shot at. I always imagined it to be upstairs. If it was dark, a more competent assassin may have got closer to ensure success…..

Edited July 9, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Sean Coleman said:

After reading GW’s testimony it turns out this is the window of the room he was sat in when shot at. I always imagined it to be upstairs. If it was dark, a more competent assassin may have got closer to ensure success…..

Is that your Chevy? 

[Sean Coleman]

9 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Is that your Chevy? 

Woah……I’m strictly mopar!

[Charles Blackmon]

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

After reading GW’s testimony it turns out this is the window of the room he was sat in when shot at. I always imagined it to be upstairs. If it was dark, a more competent assassin may have got closer to ensure success…..

Hmm..yet another mysterious black blob (obscuring the license plate). 

[Steve Roe]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 "All in all, Oswald missed by an inch or so"--SR

I have read the DPD reports, etc. 

Where does this estimate come from? 

If a slug has passed one inch from Walker's head...he would have thought "fireworks" outside of his home were a possible cause of the sound he heard? 

If Walker was missed by one inch...he only deduced he had been shot at after seeing a hole in the wall behind him? 

Would not Walker hear the thud or impact of the bullet in the wall right by his head, if it were a close shot? 

Something doesn't add up. 

I have never been able to nail down where on the wall the bullet entered--how high? How many feet from the floor? Is that recorded by the DPD? 

 

 

Ben, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I don't believe I fully explained what I meant by "missing by an inch or so". 

What I meant was the strike on the window sash, not the wall. As you can see another inch down, left or right, would have cleared the sash, and gone through just the screen unencumbered and maybe hitting Walker (who knows). That's what I meant. 

Regarding the height of the bullet hitting the lathe/plaster wall, Robert Surrey was questioned about that. 

Mr. JENNER. And plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed it?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. SURREY. You mean how high is the hole----
Mr. JENNER. From the floor.
Mr. SURREY. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SURREY. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.
Mr. JENNER. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?
Mr. SURREY. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4 1/2 feet. Tell the Commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "X" with a circle, and the place at which General Walker's chair was located.
Mr. SURREY. I would say 18 inches.
Mr. JENNER. He was that close?
Mr. SURREY. To the wall there; yes, sir.

Walker was 6'3, so it was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-1/2 feet or a little more where the bullet struck the wall. 

Commission Exhibit 1014 is a crude diagram made by Robert Surrey of Walker's office, showing the window the shot came through (A), his desk and where he was sitting, and then a dark mark where the bullet crashed through the wall. Of course, it's not to scale, as Surrey estimated Walker was about 18" away from the wall where the bullet hit. Seated in that position it's clear why Walker got the shrapnel wounds to his right arm as the bullet began to splinter the jacket and hit him. Mark Ulrick posted a link about reporters mentioning the wound to the arm, including a 1/2" sliver dug out near his elbow. I verified that article, and it does state those facts (April 14, 1963, Dallas Morning News).

Hopefully that gives you a better picture of how it happened. No question in my mind that this wasn't staged, and Oswald was trying to kill Walker.

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0338a.htm

Edited March 24, 2023 by Steve Roe
Edit emphasis.

[Sean Coleman]

On 3/24/2023 at 12:28 PM, Charles Blackmon said:

Hmm..yet another mysterious black blob (obscuring the license plate). 

…..that isn’t there on the evidence photo….I smell a rat….

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Charles Blackmon]

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

…..that isn’t there on the evidence photo….I smell a rat….

Rats all over the place. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Charles Blackmon

[Michael Crane]

2 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Hmm..yet another mysterious black blob (obscuring the license plate). 

I've seen that picture with the license plate.

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Ben, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I don't believe I fully explained what I meant by "missing by an inch or so". 

What I meant was the strike on the window sash, not the wall. As you can see another inch down, left or right, would have cleared the sash, and gone through just the screen unencumbered and maybe hitting Walker (who knows). That's what I meant. 

Regarding the height of the bullet hitting the lathe/plaster wall, Robert Surrey was questioned about that. 

Mr. JENNER. And plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed it?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair?
Mr. SURREY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. SURREY. You mean how high is the hole----
Mr. JENNER. From the floor.
Mr. SURREY. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SURREY. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.
Mr. JENNER. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?
Mr. SURREY. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4 1/2 feet. Tell the Commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "X" with a circle, and the place at which General Walker's chair was located.
Mr. SURREY. I would say 18 inches.
Mr. JENNER. He was that close?
Mr. SURREY. To the wall there; yes, sir.

Walker was 6'3, so it was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-1/2 feet or a little more where the bullet struck the wall. 

Commission Exhibit 1014 is a crude diagram made by Robert Surrey of Walker's office, showing the window the shot came through (A), his desk and where he was sitting, and then a dark mark where the bullet crashed through the wall. Of course, it's not to scale, as Surrey estimated Walker was about 18" away from the wall where the bullet hit. Seated in that position it's clear why Walker got the shrapnel wounds to his right arm as the bullet began to splinter the jacket and hit him. Mark Ulrick posted a link about reporters mentioning the wound to the arm, including a 1/2" sliver dug out near his elbow. I verified that article, and it does state those facts (April 14, 1963, Dallas Morning News).

Hopefully that gives you a better picture of how it happened. No question in my mind that this wasn't staged, and Oswald was trying to kill Walker.

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0338a.htm

Thanks for your reply. 

[Mark Ulrik]

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

…..that isn’t there on the evidence photo….I smell a rat….

Or it could simply be the paper under the photo that is visible through the hole.

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

After reading GW’s testimony it turns out this is the window of the room he was sat in when shot at. I always imagined it to be upstairs. If it was dark, a more competent assassin may have got closer to ensure success…..

Sean, Steve Roe, Mark, anyone -- where is the floodlight normally lighting that backyard that Surrey told police was inoperable the night of April 10? Is it that bright white circle in the middle of the roofline, middle of the photo? Is that bright circle a defect in the photo, sunlight reflecting off of metal in daylight, or a light that is on? 

[Mark Ulrik]

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Sean, Steve Roe, Mark, anyone -- where is the floodlight normally lighting that backyard that Surrey told police was inoperable the night of April 10? Is it that bright white circle in the middle of the roofline, middle of the photo? Is that bright circle a defect in the photo, sunlight reflecting off of metal in daylight, or a light that is on? 

It certainly doesn't appear to be a defect.