The Paine Garage Search on Saturday: What the Fudge-and-Cookies Is Going on Here ?

[John Cotter]

8 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Thanks, John.  Being new here, I'm playing catch up.

Have you studied Linnie's history?

Not in any great depth, Leslie. I've read a few posts about it - mainly at ROKC as far as I can recall. Do you know of any more extensive online source?

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

If I understand your response, you didn't ask her and she didn't offer?

Do you find it plausible she didn't know, considering the arrest made the news and his subsequent interview was broadcast.

It's slightly more plausible that Ruth wasn't aware Lee traveled MC, but the leafletting and arrest and radio interviews in NOLA beg the question how she remained in the dark.

Hypothetically, if she knew about the arrest, why didn't she have a quiet chat with authorities either in NOLA or Dallas?  Furthermore, I think by September she must have known SA Hosty was in the picture or she could have reached out to her friend SA "Hart" Odum off the record.  
 

Or, as you seem to intimate, she was clueless.

No I meant I can’t remember anything in her testimony, letters to family, or interviews etc that refers to knowledge of that pre-nov 22. But I also did not ask her myself nor did the subject come up with me when I knew her.

I would not assume someone not living in New Orleans would know of the Oswald arrest in New Orleans unless told of it. 

Ruth testified that Hosty coming to her door Nov 1, 1963 to see Marina was the first time in her life she met an FBI agent. 

[Leslie Sharp]

On 3/29/2023 at 5:55 AM, Greg Doudna said:

No I meant I can’t remember anything in her testimony, letters to family, or interviews etc that refers to knowledge of that pre-nov 22. But I also did not ask her myself nor did the subject come up with me when I knew her.

I would not assume someone not living in New Orleans would know of the Oswald arrest in New Orleans unless told of it. 

Ruth testified that Hosty coming to her door Nov 1, 1963 to see Marina was the first time in her life she met an FBI agent. 

I'm certain Michael Paine acknowledged he knew SA FBI Bardwell Odum prior to the assassination, and referred to him by the nickname "Bob."

I've yet to pinpoint Ruth's reference to the same FBI agent in her lengthy testimony so that I can quote her directly, but she refers to him as "Hart" and implies they were on friendly terms.  So, I suggest she may be mistaken that Hosty was the first FBI agent she had met.

 I'm open to the possibility she met FBI agent Odum post November 1, so in that regard she may be technically accurate that Hosty was her first, but can we be certain she hadn't met "Hart" previously? Could she have met him through Michael? Did Bob and Michael meet before or after Ruth met Hosty on the 1st?  If either is the case, doesn't that open another proverbial can of worms.

On November 7, 8 ,9, Ruth and Michael read the letter Oswald had typed on her typewriter to discover that he had been in MC with a reference to the Russian Embassy. Might she have considered a discreet phone call to Hosty whom she had met on November 1? Or perhaps a call to her friend "Hart." Why didn't Michael touch base with "Bob"?

Wasn't Hosty in touch with New Orleans at some point following the August arrest of Lee?  Did he not ask, or at minimum advise Ruth of the incident in NOLA when he first met her on November 1, or did FBI Hosty only learn of the arrest following his visit with Ruth on November 1?

The aforementioned suggests to me that Ruth has been interviewed over the years by researchers who may well be sympathetic to her? 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I'm certain Michael Paine acknowledged he knew SA FBI Bardwell Odum prior to the assassination, and referred to him by the nickname "Bob."

I've yet to pinpoint Ruth's reference to the same FBI agent in her lengthy testimony so that I can quote her directly, but she refers to him as "Hart" and implies they were on friendly terms.  So, I suggest she may be mistaken that Hosty was the first FBI agent she had met.

 I'm open to the possibility she met FBI agent Odum post November 1, so in that regard she may be technically accurate that Hosty was her first, but can we be certain she hadn't met "Hart" previously? Could she have met him through Michael? Did Bob and Michael meet before or after Ruth met Hosty on the 1st?  If either is the case, doesn't that open another proverbial can of worms.

On November 7, 8 ,9, Ruth and Michael read the letter Oswald had typed on her typewriter to discover that he had been in MC with a reference to the Russian Embassy. Might she have considered a discreet phone call to Hosty whom she had met on November 1? Or perhaps a call to her friend "Hart." Why didn't Michael touch base with "Bob"?

Wasn't Hosty in touch with New Orleans at some point following the August arrest of Lee?  Did he not ask, or at minimum advise Ruth of the incident in NOLA when he first met her on November 1, or did FBI Hosty only learn of the arrest following his visit with Ruth on November 1?

The aforementioned suggests to me that Ruth has been interviewed over the years by researchers who may well be sympathetic to her? 

Well that is Ruth's testimony. It is clear Michael Paine was on a first-name basis with Odum who also lived in Oak Cliff. When that acquaintance began I don't think is known. I have thought, even though there is no direct evidence of it, that it is plausible Michael might have notified the FBI at the time he agreed to go along with Ruth taking Marina into their house in Irving. Ruth would have discussed taking Marina in with Michael who still owned half the home even though not living there. So I could see FBI contact from Michael prior to Nov. 1. Ruth testified Hosty on Nov 1 was her first meeting with an FBI agent. But to my knowledge Michael was never asked that question, of when he first became acquainted with Odum, or of contact with the FBI.

On the Soviet embassy letter, I agree it would be natural for Ruth to call or think of calling the FBI (in this case Hosty whom she had met and liked). According to both Ruth and Michael, when Ruth tried to tell Michael how concerned she was over the contents of Lee's embassy letter Michael blew it off and told Ruth to let it go because it was none of their business. Ruth testified she resolved to show the letter to Hosty the next time he returned (implying she anticipated Hosty would be back).

[Leslie Sharp]

6 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Well that is Ruth's testimony. It is clear Michael Paine was on a first-name basis with Odum who also lived in Oak Cliff. When that acquaintance began I don't think is known. I have thought, even though there is no direct evidence of it, that it is plausible Michael might have notified the FBI at the time he agreed to go along with Ruth taking Marina into their house in Irving. Ruth would have discussed taking Marina in with Michael who still owned half the home even though not living there. So I could see FBI contact from Michael prior to Nov. 1. Ruth testified Hosty on Nov 1 was her first meeting with an FBI agent. But to my knowledge Michael was never asked that question, of when he first became acquainted with Odum, or of contact with the FBI.

On the Soviet embassy letter, I agree it would be natural for Ruth to call or think of calling the FBI (in this case Hosty whom she had met and liked). According to both Ruth and Michael, when Ruth tried to tell Michael how concerned she was over the contents of Lee's embassy letter Michael blew it off and told Ruth to let it go because it was none of their business. Ruth testified she resolved to show the letter to Hosty the next time he returned (implying she anticipated Hosty would be back).

And in that letter, Lee divulges he had been in MC.  

Do you recall whether Ruth was asked about the MC trip, a controversy among researchers and journalists that has spanned decades? Did she publicly confirm Lee had been in MC within a few days of the assassination? 

 

Re. SA Odum. Ruth refers to him as "Hart". If she only knew him through Michael and never actually met him until after the assassination, wouldn't she have called him "Bob" during testimony?

You're probably familiar with barber Shasteen's story that he cut Oswald's hair, and that Odum frequented the same barber shop.   

[Greg Doudna]

Just now, Leslie Sharp said:

And in that letter, Lee divulges he had been in MC.  

Do you recall whether Ruth was asked about the MC trip, a controversy among researchers and journalists that has spanned decades? Did she publicly confirm Lee had been in MC within a few days of the assassination? 

Re. SA Odum. Ruth refers to him as "Hart". If she only knew him through Michael and never actually met him until after the assassination, wouldn't she have called him "Bob" during testimony?

You're probably familiar with barber Shasteen's story that he cut Oswald's hair, and that Odum frequented the same barber shop.   

I don't follow the question or controversy of your second paragraph, sorry. I do not personally believe Oswald got his haircuts in Shasteen's barber shop; mistaken identification. Maybe this is getting a little afield from Gil's topic?

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:56 AM, Tom Gram said:

I’ve harped on this before, but according to the DPD reports and inventory sheets, the BYPs were discovered in Paine’s garage on Saturday in a “dull black envelope”. That envelope was never tested for fingerprints, its source was never investigated, and as far as I know it just straight-up disappeared and was never entered into evidence.

Don't remember reading this before Tom, Thanks.

[Leslie Sharp]

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don't follow the question or controversy of your second paragraph, sorry. I do not personally believe Oswald got his haircuts in Shasteen's barber shop; mistaken identification. Maybe this is getting a little afield from Gil's topic?

Are you not aware that a large element within the community insists Oswald was never in Mexico City?

I believe Shasteen said something like, "I don't care what you believe, I stand by my statements."

Surely Gil will erect guardrails if we venture too far off topic.  I would posit that your lengthy and somewhat impassioned defense of Ruth has little to do with the garage.

[Leslie Sharp]

On 3/29/2023 at 4:44 AM, John Cotter said:

Not in any great depth, Leslie. I've read a few posts about it - mainly at ROKC as far as I can recall. Do you know of any more extensive online source?

I had spent months researching the Robert S. Lovett dynasty of Huntsville, Texas (Union Pacific RR) in context of the Houston-based law firm Baker, Botts which was founded by the father of GHWB's Sec State James Baker. Robert S. Lovett's son Robert A. was the Yale roommate of John J. McCloy (of the WC), a partner in Brown Bros. Harriman (whose primary account was Union Pacific) and almost exclusively selected Kennedy's cabinet.

Huntsville was also home of an infamous juvenile detention center and a state prison, the former often invoked by parents to scare their rowdy teenage boys, "I'll send you to Hunstville if you don't shape up".

I believe Buell may have spent a brief period at Hunstville detention. 

Ultimately, as simplistic as it might seem, it was Buell's sister, Linnie Randle who orchestrated Lee's hiring at the Texas School Book Depository building resulting in his presence there on Friday, November 22.  Make of it what you will. I dismissed the coincidences until the incident in Austin related to a conversation her husband had with the receptionist surfaced. My interest was renewed, but I've not taken the line of inquiry far enough along to share publicly.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[John Cotter]

On 3/31/2023 at 6:07 AM, Leslie Sharp said:

I had spent months researching the Robert S. Lovett dynasty of Huntsville, Texas (Union Pacific RR) in context of the Houston-based law firm Baker, Botts which was founded by the father of GHWB's Sec State James Baker. Robert S. Lovett's son Robert A. was the Yale roommate of John J. McCloy (of the WC), a partner in Brown Bros. Harriman (whose primary account was Union Pacific) and almost exclusively selected Kennedy's cabinet.

Huntsville was also home of an infamous juvenile detention center and a state prison, the former often invoked by parents to scare their rowdy teenage boys, "I'll send you to Hunstville if you don't shape up".

I believe Buell may have spent a brief period at Hunstville detention. 

Ultimately, as simplistic as it might seem, it was Buell's sister, Linnie Randle who orchestrated Lee's hiring at the Texas School Book Depository building resulting in his presence there on Friday, November 22.  Make of it what you will. I dismissed the coincidences until the incident in Austin related to a conversation her husband had with the receptionist surfaced. My interest was renewed, but I've not taken the line of inquiry far enough along to share publicly.

 

There’s a very interesting and informative thread “Buell Wesley Frazier, Linnie Mae Randle and Bill Randle” at ROKC. As discussed on the thread, many questions about these three eponymous individuals among others remain unanswered.

However, it’s clear that Linnie Mae Randle was not the simon pure innocent housewife that some make her out to be. Indeed, there’s a touch of sexism about the suggestion that because LM Randle and R Paine were both mere housewives, they must be considered pure as the driven snow.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t24-buell-wesley-frazier-linnie-mae-and-bill-randle?highlight=Linnie

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:46 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

Surely Gil will erect guardrails if we venture too far off topic.  I would posit that your lengthy and somewhat impassioned defense of Ruth has little to do with the garage.

It's a lot longer than this!  

Edited April 2, 2023 by Ron Bulman