The Paine Garage Search on Saturday: What the Fudge-and-Cookies Is Going on Here ?

[Gil Jesus]

During the search of the Paine residence on Saturday 11/23, Mr. and Mrs. Paine, along with Marina Oswald and all the kids were absent from the property while the police searched their garage. The official version is that the Paines were getting ready to go shopping when the police showed up with a search warrant and they simply told them to "help themselves" and left.

This account sounds ridiculous to me for two reasons:

First of all, if I'm the property owner and the police show up with a search warrant to search my property, I'm not leaving, especially if someone else's property is mixed in with mine. If they're after the other party, I want to make sure that they don't "confiscate" any property of mine. Whatever else I had planned, including "Shopping", can wait.

Second, if I'm the police officer in charge of the search, I'M NOT LETTING ANYONE LEAVE THE PROPERTY UNTIL THE SEARCH IS COMPLETED. I'll have them sit on the couch in the living room and assign an officer to them to make sure they don't move. I can't take a chance that someone will go for a weapon or destroy evidence, so their mobility is restricted until the search is complete.

How do you know you're not going to find something during the search that is going to implicate either one of the Paines, Marina Oswald or all three in the crime ? You just let them leave ? Just like that ? Why, because they SAID they were going shopping ? How do you know they're not on their way to Redbird Airport to jump on a private plane out of the country ?

Letting them leave the property like that is a no-no.

At best, there seems to be an abnormal amount of trust being displayed by both the property owners and the police.

At worst, it looks like collusion.

[John Cotter]

18 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

During the search of the Paine residence on Saturday 11/23, Mr. and Mrs. Paine, along with Marina Oswald and all the kids were absent from the property while the police searched their garage. The official version is that the Paines were getting ready to go shopping when the police showed up with a search warrant and they simply told them to "help themselves" and left.

This account sounds ridiculous to me for two reasons:

First of all, if I'm the property owner and the police show up with a search warrant to search my property, I'm not leaving, especially if someone else's property is mixed in with mine. If they're after the other party, I want to make sure that they don't "confiscate" any property of mine. Whatever else I had planned, including "Shopping", can wait.

Second, if I'm the police officer in charge of the search, I'M NOT LETTING ANYONE LEAVE THE PROPERTY UNTIL THE SEARCH IS COMPLETED. I'll have them sit on the couch in the living room and assign an officer to them to make sure they don't move. I can't take a chance that someone will go for a weapon or destroy evidence, so their mobility is restricted until the search is complete.

How do you know you're not going to find something during the search that is going to implicate either one of the Paines, Marina Oswald or all three in the crime ? You just let them leave ? Just like that ? Why, because they SAID they were going shopping ? How do you know they're not on their way to Redbird Airport to jump on a private plane out of the country ?

Letting them leave the property like that is a no-no.

At best, there seems to be an abnormal amount of trust being displayed by both the property owners and the police.

At worst, it looks like collusion.

Yes, the Paines proceeding with their shopping trip smacks of connivance – conveniently removing themselves as witnesses to whatever shenanigans a notoriously corrupt police force might wish to get up to in their absence.

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

And that’s only the beginning of the collusion you mention.

[Pete Mellor]

👮‍♂️

Yeah, the investigation of the murder of the president of the U.S. turns into a Monty Python sketch.

[Pat Speer]

Only adding to the oddness is that Frazier is purported to have told the DPD Oswald brought some curtain rods to work on the 22nd, and not one cop thought to check to see if any curtain rods were missing from the Paine's garage. I mean, why the heck not?  The only "innocent" explanation is that they'd decided the pinko was dirty and had no interest in helping him with anything resembling an alibi. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Denny Zartman]

Good points, Gil. The police allowing Ruth and Marina to leave the premises is significant. For all the police knew at the time, the two were part of a plot and could have attempted to flee. At the very least, they could have identified which items did or did not belong to Lee.

[Mark Ulrik]

5 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Good points, Gil. The police allowing Ruth and Marina to leave the premises is significant. For all the police knew at the time, the two were part of a plot and could have attempted to flee. At the very least, they could have identified which items did or did not belong to Lee.

Mr. STOVALL. [...] we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Had RP and MP wanted to flee or destroy evidence, they could've done so between police visits. Why should the cops suddenly become paranoid and begin to treat them as suspects and flight risks? They were fully cooperating.

[Evan Marshall]

Well, I wrote and served a couple of hundred search warrants during two separate tours of duty at Detroit Homicide and I wonder how many those who are pontificating on the search of the Paine's property?

[Denny Zartman]

5 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

Well, I wrote and served a couple of hundred search warrants during two separate tours of duty at Detroit Homicide and I wonder how many those who are pontificating on the search of the Paine's property?

Well then let's hear it, if you're the expert. Tell us, did you allow potential suspects to leave while you were executing a search warrant?

[Ron Bulman]

11 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Mr. STOVALL. [...] we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Had RP and MP wanted to flee or destroy evidence, they could've done so between police visits. Why should the cops suddenly become paranoid and begin to treat them as suspects and flight risks? They were fully cooperating.

I thought Michael showed up Friday afternoon/evening.  The conversation over the ironing board where he talks about Oswald's communistic statements and files in the garage (that were confiscated and disappeared).

[Gil Jesus]

19 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Mr. STOVALL. [...] we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Had RP and MP wanted to flee or destroy evidence, they could've done so between police visits. Why should the cops suddenly become paranoid and begin to treat them as suspects and flight risks? They were fully cooperating.

If the cops came to your house with a search warrant, would you leave them there and go to another appointment ?

It's not about the cops being paranoid, it's about keeping their own safe and conducting a legal search.

[Gil Jesus]

9 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Well then let's hear it, if you're the expert. Tell us, did you allow potential suspects to leave while you were executing a search warrant?

I'll bet he won't answer because if he did, the answer would be "no". You'll notice that Mr. Marshall doesn't deny anything I've said with regard to police procedure. While I notice that he takes every opportunity to constantly brag about his qualifications and experience as a law enforcement officer, unforunately, this thread is not about him.

It's about the suspicious behavior between the Paines and the Dallas Police during the Saturday search of the Paine residence.

I'm surprised and shocked that an "expert" on searches such as himself never picked up on this. This is first-year criminal justice college course stuff. You NEVER let people who are at a property you're going to search leave that property until the search is completed.

The police went there on Friday and conducted a "consent search" at which time Ruth Paine got angry because police were taking some of her family's things and ended the search.

It's all in the Paines' testimony.

So she all of a sudden has a change of heart and "trusts" them on Saturday ?

After going through what she went through on Friday, would you ?

I'm sorry but there's something else going on here.

 

[Mark Ulrik]

18 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

If the cops came to your house with a search warrant, would you leave them there and go to another appointment ?

It's not about the cops being paranoid, it's about keeping their own safe and conducting a legal search.

1) I guess it would depend on the appointment, but probably not. However, in this case, it was the second search and limited to the garage. The occupants had already spent some time around investigators, and perhaps there was a mutual sense of trust and respect. Also, it was the 60's, and RP may have been even more trusting of authorities than the average person. It also helps to know that you have nothing to hide.

2) Can't you keep your own safe and conduct a legal search without detaining the occupants? It seems to me that allowing them to leave would only make things easier for the investigators.

[Denny Zartman]

20 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Mr. STOVALL. [...] we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Had RP and MP wanted to flee or destroy evidence, they could've done so between police visits. Why should the cops suddenly become paranoid and begin to treat them as suspects and flight risks? They were fully cooperating.

If my home was being searched by the police during the investigation of any crime, I would not leave my premises until the search was over. This would be especially so if my home was being searched as part of the investigation of the crime of the century that had happened yesterday.

You seem to believe that guilty suspects are always uncooperative with police investigations, and that innocent suspects are always cooperative. Why bother having investigations and trials then? Arrest and convict those who are uncooperative, and let everyone else walk.

It has nothing to do with paranoia on the part of the police and everything to do with proper procedure. Assuming this investigation was on the level, at that point the investigators could not have possibly known for sure if Ruth and/or Marina or anyone else were involved or not. It could conceivably have been a Russian plot to assassinate JFK. The main suspect's Russian wife and her Russian-speaking housemate would therefore potentially be persons of interest. The alleged murder weapon had allegedly been in the same building with both of them just two nights before. Yet you think it's not unusual they made their Saturday shopping trip their top priority.

[Denny Zartman]

55 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

I'll bet he won't answer because if he did, the answer would be "no". You'll notice that Mr. Marshall doesn't deny anything I've said with regard to police procedure. While I notice that he takes every opportunity to constantly brag about his qualifications and experience as a law enforcement officer, unforunately, this thread is not about him.

It's about the suspicious behavior between the Paines and the Dallas Police during the Saturday search of the Paine residence.

I'm surprised and shocked that an "expert" on searches such as himself never picked up on this. This is first-year criminal justice college course stuff. You NEVER let people who are at a property you're going to search leave that property until the search is completed.

The police went there on Friday and conducted a "consent search" at which time Ruth Paine got angry because police were taking some of her family's things and ended the search.

It's all in the Paines' testimony.

So she all of a sudden has a change of heart and "trusts" them on Saturday ?

After going through what she went through on Friday, would you ?

I'm sorry but there's something else going on here.

 

@Evan Marshall always bragging about his experience, but completely neglects to answer the obvious question at hand: When cops are executing a search warrant, do they let people come and go at will?

We all know the answer anyway.

 

[Pat Speer]

I seem to recall that Life Magazine came out on the morning of the 23rd, and took pictures of the Paines and Oswalds. I think there was something about them going to a hotel afterwards to negotiate a deal, exclusive rights or some such thing. So the Paines leaving on errands during the search may have been a euphemism. They were looking to cash in. 

Just spit-ballin'. Hopefully someone has a better recollection of the timeline...