The Paine Garage Search on Saturday: What the Fudge-and-Cookies Is Going on Here ?

[Evan Marshall]

I'm not an expert but you need to look at the event when it happened. 1963 was before Miranda and a whole number of other court decisions AND you have to look at the skills, experience, and MOTIVES of those doing the searching.

 

This was a Homicide and that critical fact got lost in the focus on the victim. My comment was simply this is that too many people engrossed in this topic are quick to slef anoint themselves at experts. And their criticisms on how the search warrant was executed would be like me telling David Mantik he was wrong!

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Ruth Paine’s behavior toward Oswald before Nov 22 was not hateful. You are misrepresenting. She welcomed him on weekends when he visited. She took him for driving lessons to try to help him get a drivers license. She gave him rides, gave him a map, made a birthday cake for him. There is no sign or testimony that she badmouthed him to Marina. Ruth’s letters to her family members in 1963 pre-Nov 22 do not show hate for Lee but concern for his as well as Marina’s wellbeing. The “hate” is simply not in evidence in heart or behavior prior to Nov 22. 

I agree she viewed him negatively after Nov 22, believed and believes to this day that he killed jfk, and by December she further believed he had attempted premeditated murder of walker eight months earlier proving in her mind he had the heart to do premeditated murder of a president too. Pretty horrifying to believe that coming out about someone who had been in your home and you didn’t see that coming. But you are reading that backwards pre-nov 22. 

GD. She welcomed him on weekends when he visited.

LS. She declined his request on at least one occasion.  If memory serves it was a significant birthdate.

GD. proving in her [Ruth's] mind he had the heart to do premeditated murder of a president too.
 

LS. Yet, it had not been established beyond a reasonable doubt (nor has it been to date) that Oswald fired at Walker's house in April, correct?  Which alleged shooting event did Ruth use to confirm the other?

At the risk of invoking Marguerite among a readership that will likely jump down the throat of anyone who chooses to venture here, Lee's mother knew her son better than certainly Marina let alone Ruth, and also recognized that Ruth was not a "friend" to be trusted. I believe numerous records reflect that Ruth was never in their company as a friend again?

Edited March 28, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

As in the allegory of the blind men and the elephant, one piece of the jigsaw – to mix a metaphor – viewed in isolation from the big picture can be interpreted to mean just about anything.

@Denny Zartman indicated on page three of this thread what the big picture here is. That context renders a benign interpretation of Ruth Paine’s role in getting Oswald the job in the TSBD untenable.

That context renders a benign interpretation of Ruth Paine’s role in getting Oswald the job in the TSBD untenable.

Among the individuals who have flown under the radar for decades is Linnie Randle, Buell's sister. 

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

That context renders a benign interpretation of Ruth Paine’s role in getting Oswald the job in the TSBD untenable.

Among the individuals who have flown under the radar for decades is Linnie Randle, Buell's sister. 

I've previously posted about Linnie Mae Randle's persistently evasive responses to questioning by the Warren Commission.

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

At the risk of invoking Marguerite among a readership that will likely jump down the throat of anyone who chooses to venture here, Lee's mother knew her son better than certainly Marina let alone Ruth, and also recognized that Ruth was not a "friend" to be trusted. I believe numerous records reflect that Ruth was never in their company as a friend again?

Leslie, this is simply wrong. For one thing, Oswald went out of his way to cut ties with Marguerite when he returned to Texas after Russia, so you cannot reasonably say she “knew” him well during this period of time. Marguerite’s opinion of the Paines is similarly uninformed and largely based on her own profound jealously and sense of entitlement - she was incensed that Lee and Marina would rather rely on the Paines than her. Lastly, the notion that the Paines were somehow obligated to maintain a relationship with Marguerite after the assassination is foolish, especially in light of the fact that they were blanketed by Secret Service and other federal and local agents.

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Leslie, this is simply wrong. For one thing, Oswald went out of his way to cut ties with Marguerite when he returned to Texas after Russia, so you cannot reasonably say she “knew” him well during this period of time. Marguerite’s opinion of the Paines is similarly uninformed and largely based on her own profound jealously and sense of entitlement - she was incensed that Lee and Marina would rather rely on the Paines than her. Lastly, the notion that the Paines were somehow obligated to maintain a relationship with Marguerite after the assassination is foolish, especially in light of the fact that they were blanketed by Secret Service and other federal and local agents.

As I said, At the risk of invoking Marguerite among a readership that will likely jump down the throat of anyone who chooses to venture here . . .

If you are referring to his day to day activity, I agree that Marguerite would not have been privy to their daily lives.

However, Ruth had known Lee since February 1963 and since June/ July she seems to have been fairly read in on his activity, yet she never detected anything unusual about his behavior?

Had Marguerite been in their day to day lives, do you think as a mother she might have detected "something was up"?  

And, were Marina and Ruth unaware of the arrest in New Orleans in August? Did it not occur to her to touch base with Hart, or did she in fact give him a call?

Didn't Ruth deliver and later retrieve Marina and the baby prior to Lee leaving for MC?  Did she ask, "hey, Lee, tell me about those leafletting incidents, your arrest" or better still, "Lee, why are you going to MC?"  Or did she not know about either?  If so, then she didn't now Lee very well, did she?

Marguerite realized while waiting to see her son in the Dallas jail that Ruth Paine had no intention of aiding this couple in their hour of need. Ruth metaphorically turned and walked away. Texans have a word for such betrayal.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Leslie, this is simply wrong. For one thing, Oswald went out of his way to cut ties with Marguerite when he returned to Texas after Russia, so you cannot reasonably say she “knew” him well during this period of time. Marguerite’s opinion of the Paines is similarly uninformed and largely based on her own profound jealously and sense of entitlement - she was incensed that Lee and Marina would rather rely on the Paines than her. Lastly, the notion that the Paines were somehow obligated to maintain a relationship with Marguerite after the assassination is foolish, especially in light of the fact that they were blanketed by Secret Service and other federal and local agents.

Well, it’s not like Lee and Marina were particularly enamored with Ruth Paine either: 

Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they friendly?
Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her 
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me these are not my words.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also--I was---I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, John Cotter said:

I've previously posted about Linnie Mae Randle's persistently evasive responses to questioning by the Warren Commission.

Thanks, John.  Being new here, I'm playing catch up.

Have you studied Linnie's history?

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her 
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me these are not my words.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also--I was---I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Lee and Marina borrowed a car belonging to Michael Paine parked at Ruth Paine's house behind her back when she was gone for a few hours and Ruth never noticed, on Nov 11, 1963 (https://www.scrollery.com/?p=1450). I wonder if that is why they considered her stupid, for not noticing?

Marguerite accused Ruth Paine of being part of the assassination of JFK, as she also accused the two Secret Service agents at the motel with her and Marina, Howard and Kunkel--she told the Warren Commission she thought Howard and Kunkel had been involved in assassinating JFK too, along with Ruth Paine. The Warren Commission kept asking if she had any evidence to substantiate her claims. She never provided any. Sounds like CT accusations today regarding Ruth Paine. 

And some people wonder why Ruth never seemed interested in taking in any more Russian immigrant young women after that. "Been there, done that, no thanks"?

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Well, it’s not like Lee and Marina were particularly enamored with Ruth Paine either: 

Mr. RANKIN. How did Mrs. Paine and your husband get along? Were they friendly?
Mrs. OSWALD. She was very good to us, to Lee and to me, and Lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. I know that he didn't like her 
Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he didn't like her?
Mrs. OSWALD. He considered her to be a stupid woman. Excuse me these are not my words.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you and Mrs. Paine good friends?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, so-so. I tried to help her as much as I could. But I also--I was---I did not like her too well. I also considered her not to be a very smart woman.

Pretty straight forward summation of Marina's feelings about Ruth Paine.

Same regards Lee.

They appreciated what Ruth Paine had done and was doing for them. Yet they did not personally like her.

Marina, like any young mother in dire financial straights had to try to show as good of an appreciation side to her benefactor as she could.

Yet, if her and Lee could have had some big boost in income they would have moved out and away from RP in a minute imo.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

13 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

On the TEC job issue, I’ll refer readers to my comments in that thread linked by Greg. There’s no proof of anything nefarious, but it’s hardly a settled issue and the argument that Ruth was prevaricating in her testimony has some legitimate evidentiary support. Even if she did though, that doesn’t automatically mean that she conspired to get Oswald in the TSBD. A reasonable interpretation of the evidence IMO is that Ruth didn’t think it was important to pass on the TEC info because Oswald already had a job; she subsequently did some CYA out of embarrassment and guilt, and the sympathetic WC let her get away with it. 

You and I came to the same conclusion on this Tom.

Specifically, as far as the charge that Ruth neglected to inform Lee of a better paying job. As a friend, and not even the wife of Lee. Why would she even  be told the wage? There is no proof she was..

And for example, Why couldn't she just have been tired of trying to find Lee a job, and then be relieved she no longer has to find this guy a job, and lose interest, and not pursue it?

Then months later, after hours of intense questioning , she gets defensive and fumbles when she finds that her neglect was being turned into a motive when confronted?

Tom, thanks for that interview snippet,. with Rankin and Marina. Lee and  Marina agree that Ruth was a "stupid woman" (Lee) and "not very smart." (Marina)     ha ha!

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Lee and Marina borrowed a car belonging to Michael Paine parked at Ruth Paine's house behind her back when she was gone for a few hours and Ruth never noticed, on Nov 11, 1963 (https://www.scrollery.com/?p=1450). I wonder if that is why they considered her stupid, for not noticing?

Marguerite accused Ruth Paine of being part of the assassination of JFK, as she also accused the two Secret Service agents at the motel with her and Marina, Howard and Kunkel--she told the Warren Commission she thought Howard and Kunkel had been involved in assassinating JFK too, along with Ruth Paine. The Warren Commission kept asking if she had any evidence to substantiate her claims. She never provided any. Sounds like CT accusations today regarding Ruth Paine. 

And some people wonder why Ruth never seemed interested in taking in any more Russian immigrant young women after that. "Been there, done that, no thanks"?

Greg, do you recall whether Ruth knew that Oswald had been arrested in New Orleans before he left for MC?

[Greg Doudna]

8 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Greg, do you recall whether Ruth knew that Oswald had been arrested in New Orleans before he left for MC?

I don't know, Leslie. I can't think of any time she referred to it.

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don't know, Leslie. I can't think of any time she referred to it.

If I understand your response, you didn't ask her and she didn't offer?

Do you find it plausible she didn't know, considering the arrest made the news and his subsequent interview was broadcast.

It's slightly more plausible that Ruth wasn't aware Lee traveled MC, but the leafletting and arrest and radio interviews in NOLA beg the question how she remained in the dark.

Hypothetically, if she knew about the arrest, why didn't she have a quiet chat with authorities either in NOLA or Dallas?  Furthermore, I think by September she must have known SA Hosty was in the picture or she could have reached out to her friend SA "Hart" Odum off the record.  
 

Or, as you seem to intimate, she was clueless.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

You and I came to the same conclusion on this Tom.

Specifically, as far as the charge that Ruth neglected to inform Lee of a better paying job. As a friend, and not even the wife of Lee. Why would she even  be told the wage? There is no proof she was..

And for example, Why couldn't she just have been tired of trying to find Lee a job, and then be relieved she no longer has to find this guy a job, and lose interest, and not pursue it?

Then months later, after hours of intense questioning , she gets defensive and fumbles when she finds that her neglect was being turned into a motive when confronted?

Tom, thanks for that interview snippet,. with Rankin and Marina. Lee and  Marina agree that Ruth was a "stupid woman" (Lee) and "not very smart." (Marina)     ha ha!

Can I ask if this is reference to the Trans Texas Airways job?