The Paine Garage Search on Saturday: What the Fudge-and-Cookies Is Going on Here ?

[Mark Ulrik]

35 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

If my home was being searched by the police during the investigation of any crime, I would not leave my premises until the search was over. This would be especially so if my home was being searched as part of the investigation of the crime of the century that had happened yesterday.

You seem to believe that guilty suspects are always uncooperative with police investigations, and that innocent suspects are always cooperative. Why bother having investigations and trials then? Arrest and convict those who are uncooperative, and let everyone else walk.

It has nothing to do with paranoia on the part of the police and everything to do with proper procedure. Assuming this investigation was on the level, at that point the investigators could not have possibly known for sure if Ruth and/or Marina or anyone else were involved or not. It could conceivably have been a Russian plot to assassinate JFK. The main suspect's Russian wife and her Russian-speaking housemate would therefore potentially be persons of interest. The alleged murder weapon had allegedly been in the same building with both of them just two nights before. Yet you think it's not unusual they made their Saturday shopping trip their top priority.

You seem to believe that the Paines should have been considered a flight risk. Then you probably also believe that they should have been arrested even before the Saturday search. Do you also believe that other Oswald acquaintances (such as Earlene Roberts) should have been arrested?

[Mark Knight]

From what I NOW know of police procedures and the reputation of police in and around Dallas, I probably would've stayed for the search in order to make sure that no evidence was planted. [I have seen no indication that the DPD or anyone else planted evidence at the Paine house. So I'm not making any accusations of such.]

In 1963, it's likely I might've been just as trusting of the cops as Ruth Paine. So it's a hard call.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Re: the thread. "Nothing to see here folks, move on!"

heh heh heh

The Dallas police should have insisted they stay, but they are the Dallas Police!

Nobody can conceive of this now, but it was actually prevalent behavior that people who felt they had nothing to hide, actually trusted the police!

And the biggest embarrassment to a middle class American back then would have been  to be seen by his neighbors stopped in their car by the police!

They weren't considered any flight risk.

And as far as the Paine's international connections filtering down to the DPD when they knocked on the door, I think that's quite a stretch!

Though I'm sure some disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Kirk Gallaway

[Michaleen Kilroy]

Considering how the authorities treated a far less intimate acquaintance of LHO’s - Buell Frazier - grilling him for hours - also shows how strange this is.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Michaleen Kilroy

[Gil Jesus]

1 minute ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Considering how the authorities treated a far less intimate acquaintance of LHO’s - Buell Fraser - grilling him for hours - also shows how strange this is.

Good Point

[Jonathan Cohen]

8 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Considering how the authorities treated a far less intimate acquaintance of LHO’s - Buell Frazier - grilling him for hours - also shows how strange this is.

There’s really nothing strange about any of this, despite the attempts by people here to lump the Paines in with a conspiracy.

[Pat Speer]

55 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There’s really nothing strange about any of this, despite the attempts by people here to lump the Paines in with a conspiracy.

It might not be relevant, but context is everything. By 1963, the American public, of all stripes, had been inundated with stories and movies depicting good Quakers who would not harm a fly. It makes sense to me that whatever normal instincts the DPD had about the Paines--that they shouldn't be trusted--were put into the deep freeze once they realized they were Quakers. I mean, these were freakin' Quakers, for crying out loud. 

I had a similar response in my personal life. When my dad died in a different state, I had to go up and sort through his stuff, etc. At the time he was working as a property manager for a religious couple--I think Mennonites. In any event, they had his keys and could have stolen all sorts of stuff--cash, jewelry, electronics, etc. But they were super nice. And religious. So it never crossed my mind. 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

Just now, Pat Speer said:

It might not be relevant, but context is everything. By 1963, the American public, of all stripes, had been inundated with stories and movies depicting good Quakers who would not harm a fly. It makes sense to me that whatever normal instincts the DPD had about the Paines--that they shouldn't be trusted--were put into the deep freeze once they realized they were Quakers. I mean, these were freakin' Quakers, for crying out loud. 

I had a similar response in my personal life. When my dad died in a different state, I had to go up and sort through his stuff, etc. At the time he was working as a property manager for a religious couple--I think Mennonites. In any event, they had his keys and could have stolen all sorts of stuff--cash, jewelry, electronics, etc. But they were super nice. And religious. So it never crossed my mind. 

 

Pat, I agree.. which is all the more reason to brush aside conspiratorial overtones involving the DPD search of the Paine household.

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Good Point

Those in DPD responsible for the Paine garage must have recognized the friendly relationship between FBI SA Bard Odum — first name basis including Bard's nickname — and figured if he was okay with Ruth and Michael, there was no reason to grill them? 

[Denny Zartman]

7 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

You seem to believe that the Paines should have been considered a flight risk. Then you probably also believe that they should have been arrested even before the Saturday search. Do you also believe that other Oswald acquaintances (such as Earlene Roberts) should have been arrested?

You don't know the difference between being detained and being arrested?

[Jonathan Cohen]

50 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Those in DPD responsible for the Paine garage must have recognized the friendly relationship between FBI SA Bard Odum — first name basis including Bard's nickname — and figured if he was okay with Ruth and Michael, there was no reason to grill them? 

They were grilled plenty .. and in nearly 60 years, there has never been any concrete evidence pointing toward them being involved in a conspiracy, despite what most people on this forum apparently believe.

[Leslie Sharp]

8 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

They were grilled plenty .. and in nearly 60 years, there has never been any concrete evidence pointing toward them being involved in a conspiracy, despite what most people on this forum apparently believe.

One can be "used" without realizing it, Jonathan, as I'm guessing you're aware. 

Are you at all curious about the prior friendship the Paines shared with the Ubiquitous Bard who frequented the same barbershop as Oswald? 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Mark Ulrik]

19 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

You don't know the difference between being detained and being arrested?

Let's cut to the chase. You and Gil are faulting the police for not making sure that the Paines didn't make a run for it while they searched the garage. But what about before and after? Were they only a flight risk during the search?

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

One can be "used" without realizing it, Jonathan, as I'm guessing you're aware. 

Of course. But, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Paines were being "used without realizing it."

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Are you at all curious about the prior friendship the Paines shared with the Ubiquitous Bard who frequented the same barbershop as Oswald? 

Nope! I'm sure you could draw plenty of tangential connections like this but they require actual evidence to mean anything on a larger scale.

Edited March 26, 2023 by Jonathan Cohen

[Leslie Sharp]

27 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Of course. But, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Paines were being "used without realizing it."

Nope! I'm sure you could draw plenty of tangential connections like this but they require actual evidence to mean anything on a larger scale.

I highly recommend you read Bill Simpich.