Why Col. L. Fletcher Prouty's Critics Are Wrong

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is one the most bizarre things I’ve ever read on this forum. You first realized that you were “amazed” that Jews were “successful” in… the 1980s? Well gee, what did you think about them BEFORE the 1980s, Sandy?

 

I didn't know any Jews before the 1980s Jonathan. I had no idea that a large percentage of Jews is highly successful. I grew up in a Mormon family in a little Mormon town, and the only thing I knew was that Jews were the "chosen people."

Mormons think highly of Jews because they are the chosen people. So we had no anti-Semitism.

 

9 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

What type of research was necessary for you to undertake before you came to this earth-shattering conclusion?

 

(Do you find it necessary to be so snarky?)

In 1980 I graduated from college and took a job in Silicon Valley (California). I watched a lot more TV then and eventually noticed which surnames tend to be used by Jews. I watched a lot of news and read Newsweek cover-to-cover for a couple years. I noticed that there a lot of Jews in the national news. I naturally thought that there must be a very large number of Jewish Americans to account for this.

My best friend and I were talking about it one day and it was he who informed me that there are, in fact, relatively few Jews in America.... something like only 2% of the population is Jewish.

Well, this put a whole new perspective on things. What it meant was that a very large percentage of Jewish Americans are successful. Much more so than any other ethnic group. I am fascinated by this.

 

9 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Either way, we Jews are so relieved to know you deem us to be smart and competent!

 

Are you offended by the fact I've made these observations?

 

[David Josephs]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Either way, we Jews are so relieved to know you deem us to be smart and competent!

 

Are you offended by the fact I've made these observations?

Sadly, being a Cohen and possibly even Jewish does not preclude one from doing whatever it is that man is doing.  On a whole though a Jewish community, or a Rabbi, would never put up with it.

Cohen (Hebrew: כֹּהֵן, kōhēn, "priest") is a surname of Yehudi, Samaritan and Biblical origins (see: Kohen). It is a very common Jewish surname (the most common in Israel), and the following information discusses only that origin. Cohen is one of the four Samaritan last names that exist in the modern day.

One of the greatest explanation of the Jewish relationship with G~d I've heard is that "we have an ongoing discussion with God in order to continually evolve our understand of our existence as humans";  hence the evolving books of the Talmud - which, as the lawyers will appreciate - derives it meanings of the Torah (bible) though precedent and the re-interpretations of these precedents in regards to any specific subject or issue needing resolution or understanding.

Jews - orthodox Judaism - expects a person to chose Right from Wrong in every action they take and every thought they have.  To further His cause by spreading as much good as possible.

Yet in the end even Jews are fallible to human frailties, prejudices and temptations.  On a whole though Jewish law and the Talmud is about how people can live peacefully together in a society.  And, while male-dominated, the reverence for women in Jewish society is virtually unrivaled in all of history.

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In 1980 I graduated from college and took a job in Silicon Valley (California)

 

Out of curiosity, since you grew up in a Mormon family, weren't you required to do two years of mission work? Or is that optional or no longer required?

I've only known one Mormon, back in high school, and that's it, so I'm just going by what I've heard.

No, wait, I did run into a couple of Mormon missionaries in Peru. What I was doing there is another story.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Out of curiosity, since you grew up in a Mormon family, weren't you required to do two years of mission work? Or is that optional or no longer required?

I've only known one Mormon, back in high school, and that's it, so I'm just going by what I've heard.

No, wait, I did run into a couple of Mormon missionaries in Peru. What I was doing there is another story.

 

 

 

 

 

Sandy, forgive me.  Ron too.  I don't think this was intended for Mormons in particular, but Baptists, Catholics and more.  I'd not watched it in a while.

 

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, the inside joke about the AWACS was due to the contemplated sale of those planes to Saudi Arabia.

This was in the works right out of the gate once Reagan was elected.  And Prouty would know about it due to his insider connections.

Reagan was not all that friendly to Tel Aviv if you recall, the whole Bitburg thing, and this sale was met with screams and hollering from the ADL etc.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/6/2023 at 2:26 PM, Ron Ecker said:

Out of curiosity, since you grew up in a Mormon family, weren't you required to do two years of mission work? Or is that optional or no longer required?

I've only known one Mormon, back in high school, and that's it, so I'm just going by what I've heard.

No, wait, I did run into a couple of Mormon missionaries in Peru. What I was doing there is another story.

 

Ron,

Mormons aren't required by the Church to do missionary work, but many parents expect their boys to when they turn 18. I hadn't planned on serving a mission till it became clear to me that I wasn't going to find a wife at BYU if I hadn't serve one! LOL So I applied and was sent to Iran.... on a work visa to keep it legal and low profile. As far as I know it was the only LDS mission in a Muslim country. We were there during the Iranian revolution, which was pretty interesting. We were the last to leave (after most Americans) and turned out the lights on the way out, just before the Shah left and Khomeini returned.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sandy, forgive me.  Ron too.  I don't think this was intended for Mormons in particular, but Baptists, Catholics and more.  I'd not watched it in a while.

 

Ron,

I've always liked Annie Lennox. Here she is with David Bowie, singing for.... Queen?

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:38 PM, David Josephs said:

Sadly, being a Cohen and possibly even Jewish does not preclude one from doing whatever it is that man is doing.  On a whole though a Jewish community, or a Rabbi, would never put up with it.

Cohen (Hebrew: כֹּהֵן, kōhēn, "priest") is a surname of Yehudi, Samaritan and Biblical origins (see: Kohen). It is a very common Jewish surname (the most common in Israel), and the following information discusses only that origin. Cohen is one of the four Samaritan last names that exist in the modern day.

One of the greatest explanation of the Jewish relationship with G~d I've heard is that "we have an ongoing discussion with God in order to continually evolve our understand of our existence as humans";  hence the evolving books of the Talmud - which, as the lawyers will appreciate - derives it meanings of the Torah (bible) though precedent and the re-interpretations of these precedents in regards to any specific subject or issue needing resolution or understanding.

Jews - orthodox Judaism - expects a person to chose Right from Wrong in every action they take and every thought they have.  To further His cause by spreading as much good as possible.

Yet in the end even Jews are fallible to human frailties, prejudices and temptations.  On a whole though Jewish law and the Talmud is about how people can live peacefully together in a society.  And, while male-dominated, the reverence for women in Jewish society is virtually unrivaled in all of history.

 

Thanks for that, David. Those things may be the reason Jews tend to be perhaps the most successful ethnic groups.

 

[Ron Ecker]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ron,

Mormons aren't required by the Church to do missionary work, but many parents expect their boys to when they turn 18. I hadn't planned on serving a mission till it became clear to me that I wasn't going to find a wife at BYU if I hadn't serve one! LOL So I applied and was sent to Iran.... on a work visa to keep it legal and low profile. As far as I know it was the only LDS mission in a Muslim country. We were there during the Iranian revolution, which was pretty interesting. We were the last to leave (after most Americans) and turned out the lights on the way out, just before the Shah left and Khomeini returned.

 

Interesting. You ought to write a book. You could call it "Why I Ran to Iran." 

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, the inside joke about the AWACS was due to the contemplated sale of those planes to Saudi Arabia.

This was in the works right out of the gate once Reagan was elected.  And Prouty would know about it due to his insider connections.

Reagan was not all that friendly to Tel Aviv if you recall, the whole Bitburg thing, and this sale was met with screams and hollering from the ADL etc.

 

I agree with you Jim that the reference to the "Jewish Sgt." must be an inside joke or some other kind of inside knowledge that Prouty and the recipient of his letter shared. But why would they think of a Jewish sergeant operating a Saudi AWACS system?

 

 

[David Josephs]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've always liked Annie Lennox. Here she is with David Bowie, singing for.... Queen?

Thanks Sandy... had never seen that.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

1. Fletcher Prouty's unique knowledge and connections within the intelligence community might have granted him access to information about the JFK assassination that was not available to others.
2. His absence from the country during the time of the assassination could be interpreted as an attempt to distance himself from any potential involvement or suspicion.
3. The fact that Prouty had three young children during JFK's push for school desegregation might have caused him personal concern or dissatisfaction, given the widespread opposition to integration at the time.

In 1992, Prouty published a book titled "JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy," in which he placed the blame for the JFK assassination on various individuals and organizations, excluding himself. This could be seen as an effort to rewrite history and deflect any potential suspicion away from himself while shaping public perception of the events surrounding the assassination.

 

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

1. Fletcher Prouty's unique knowledge and connections within the intelligence community might have granted him access to information about the JFK assassination that was not available to others.
2. His absence from the country during the time of the assassination could be interpreted as an attempt to distance himself from any potential involvement or suspicion.
3. The fact that Prouty had three young children during JFK's push for school desegregation might have caused him personal concern or dissatisfaction, given the widespread opposition to integration at the time.

In 1992, Prouty published a book titled "JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy," in which he placed the blame for the JFK assassination on various individuals and organizations, excluding himself. This could be seen as an effort to rewrite history and deflect any potential suspicion away from himself while shaping public perception of the events surrounding the assassination.

 

1. Of course it would - if you read the Secret Team and the book you mention, if is quite obvious he was in a position of knowledge as liaison between the USAF and the CIA
2. Spell it out Keyvan.  Gordon Lansdale is provably in TX on the 21st.  General LeMay of the USAF returns to DC to be in the room at Bethesda.  Describe what Prouty's role "might" have been with the knowledge he knows that he is not "high enough" to strip Dealey plaza of Protection - or order anyone to do anything in the USAS.
3. He did whatever you think he did for his kids.  Ok

Are you the same one who thinks Elsberg wrote the Pentagon Papers to shift blame away from him for the Watergate break ins?

Can you expand on this post and let us in on the secret about Prouty you believe you know?  Sure would go a long way to add some validity to what appears as disgruntled, misinformed and wild accusations about the man.  Considering I knew the man who knew the man, who provided the info for the beginning of this thread - I doubt highly you'd say any of this to his face.  In fact, I'm sure of it.

What's your point for going down this road?

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

5 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

1. Of course it would - if you read the Secret Team and the book you mention, if is quite obvious he was in a position of knowledge as liaison between the USAF and the CIA
2. Spell it out Keyvan.  Gordon Lansdale is provably in TX on the 21st.  General LeMay of the USAF returns to DC to be in the room at Bethesda.  Describe what Prouty's role "might" have been with the knowledge he knows that he is not "high enough" to strip Dealey plaza of Protection - or order anyone to do anything in the USAS.
3. He did whatever you think he did for his kids.  Ok

Are you the same one who thinks Elsberg wrote the Pentagon Papers to shift blame away from him for the Watergate break ins?

Can you expand on this post and let us in on the secret about Prouty you believe you know?  Sure would go a long way to add some validity to what appears as disgruntled, misinformed and wild accusations about the man.  Considering I knew the man who knew the man, who provided the info for the beginning of this thread - I doubt highly you'd say any of this to his face.  In fact, I'm sure of it.

What's your point for going down this road?

1,2, and 3 are accurate statements.  
 

My point is Prouty writes a book in 1992.  He somehow knows all these facts, which I believe, and somehow he had no foreknowledge of the assassination.  Thinking critically, my opinion is he had foreknowledge.  He wrote a book about the assassination after Lansdale died and made money from it.  IMO - To have foreknowledge and to go along with it, in my opinion there has to be a reason.  He hated Kennedy for #3.
I have spoken to various retired Generals of the time. They were upset over #3.   That was America back then.

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

1,2, and 3 are accurate statements.  
 

My point is Prouty writes a book in 1992.  He somehow knows all these facts, which I believe, and somehow he had no foreknowledge of the assassination.  Thinking critically, my opinion is he had foreknowledge.  He wrote a book about the assassination after Lansdale died and made money from it.  IMO - To have foreknowledge and to go along with it, in my opinion there has to be a reason.  He hated Kennedy for #3.
I have spoken to various retired Generals of the time. They were upset over #3.   That was America back then.

Fair enough reply, and appreciated.  Yet you still do not even hint at what that role might be. You are making incredibly serious accusations - I expect you've read the book which exposes the Hamlet program for what it was and what it did to Vietnam. 

You may know, or not, that General Cabal (the Dallas mayor's brother) assisted TEXTRON, the world's first conglomerate, in buying a little, unprofitable and in massive LT debt company called BELL HELICOPTER with a loan from Prudential Insurance with a 6 year repayment grace period - not exactly an insurance business-like loan.  Within a few years BELL is banking billions on government contracts and TEXTRON begins it's foray into the tech business*. 

Having been doing this for 30 years or so, his name has NEVER come into the conversation as bring in control of, or an influence on anything that occurred that day.   If he had, how crazy is it to think he'd expose these ruthless individuals or himself to scrutiny... y'know with three kids and all?

==. With heavy bias towards JFK - even attributing the Vietnam war to him - this excerpt is an eye opener.

*The story begins with Arthur D. Little, a professor of chemistry at Harvard, who established in 1886 Arthur D.
Little Associates, an industrial consulting firm that is now one of the City of London's key infiltrators into the American and Arab economies. Little's nephew, Royal Little, the eventual founder of Textron was set up in the rayon business by his uncle's banking connections.  <snip>

Rand madman Robert Strange McNamara became Secretary of Defense while Cravath Swain and Moore partner, Roswell Gilpatrick became the number two man in Defense. This opened a whole new phase in Textron development.
Textron bought Bell Helicopter in July of 1960, four months before the election. Bell's sales were down an even hundred million in 1959 from nearly double that in 1953. Textron bought the company for what was con­sidered one of the worst deals of the year - $32 million or exactly the company’s book value.

Thompson, Jr.; then Textron Chairman (George William Miller was President) , boasted, "We knew we had our objective - 25 percent pre-tax profit on our investment - from day one."
That was a pretty cocky statement by the head of a company that had $98 million in long-term debt, large amounts of warrants and convertible preferred stock outstanding, and was running out of tax credits. Since 1953 the company had not paid a penny in tax, having run up a tax credit as high as $45 million in 1956. Textron faced full tax liability by 1963.

In fact the company was heading for bankruptcy. Yet somehow, the Prudential Life Insurance Company of Newark, a Morgan influenced firm, provided a $25 million unsecured note to Textron, with a six-year grace period on repayments. A most un-insurance company­ like type of loan.

With the loan, Textron bought Bell and remarkably, helicopter orders zoomed up 50 percent between 1961 and 1962. Bell's UH-IB and UH-IB Iroquois were heavily ordered for JFK's Vietnam War. With this kick, Textron began another round of acquisitions, now heavily defense or machine-tool oriented. The pace was dizzying. For example in 1965 (January), Textron bought Le Progres Industriel, a Belgian machine tool manufacturer; in February, it bought Old King Cole to supplement the plastics line of Fanner Industries division; in July, it acquired the South Coast Marine Co.; in September, it obtained substantial interest in the American Screw Company of Chile (nationalized by Chilean Govt. in 1972); in October, it acquired the Patterson-Sargent paint business. In 1966 Textron was even more active, buying, selling or rearranging ten companies.

Not only entering aerospace to limit its development, Textron continues its asset-stripping activities in all acquisitions. As one Textron manager explained in 1964, "Our program is based on an incentive-compensation program. Our people request only the capital equipment which really pays for itself. It made the general foreman try to operate on as low inventory as he can."

In 1974, it appeared that Textron would gobble up the ailing and much "watergated" Lockheed Aircraft. Miller decided not to, but maybe it was already in the family. Lockheed was being run by Felix Rohatyn, of Lazard Freres, part of Rothschild ally Andre Meyer's London­ based Lazard group. Rohatyn was the organizer of the Saratoga Springs Governor's Conference at which he and Miller laid out the Energy Corporation of the Northeast.

What is George William Miller's next asset stripping operation? Probably wrecking U. S. commercial banks, the cornerstone of American industry. In the Oct. 5, 1974 issue of Business  Week, Miller called for "selective consumer credit controls, a mandatory interest surchage on loans for low priority purposes and a requirement for large bank reserves for certain types of loans." Together with Senator Reuss's proposal for a full reserve requirement for all foreign branches of American banks, these measures would destroy American banking.

Miller will only have to become head of the Federal Reserve Board to do that.