CAN WE EXCLUDE BEN-GURION / HIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FROM THE JFKA SUSPECTS?

[Calvin Ye]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Reading it now. Haven’t gotten to that part, but when I do I’ll try to find your post and comment. Really interesting history book. 
I would appreciate knowing how ‘guest’ posts topics on the Forum. 

Paul, those guest(s) are actually former members who were banned from this forum for violating the rules excessively

Edited July 11, 2023 by Calvin Ye

[Michael Griffith]

I was not aware that guests could post topics, especially bizarre ones, since there is no accountability unless the guest gives their identity. 

 

[Calvin Ye]

22 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I was not aware that guests could post topics, especially bizarre ones, since there is no accountability unless the guest gives their identity. 

 

Mike, those guests are actually former members who were banned from this forum for violating the rules excessively

[Allen Lowe]

On 5/1/2023 at 1:06 PM, Michael Griffith said:

Oh, boy. So not only do we have a bunch of 9/11 Truthers in this forum, we also have a pack of anti-Israeli extremists.

The attack on the Liberty was an accident. See the link on my The Case for Israel website:

The Case for Israel (google.com)

The link will take you to a site that presents an exhaustive analysis of the incident and plenty of evidence to support the analysis. 

Holocaust deniers and Muslim terrorists have been accusing Israel of purposely attacking the Liberty for years. Now they've been joined by the Far Left. 

Anyone who says that the Israelis "could not possibly" have mistaken the Liberty for an Egyptian ship has read little or no military history. The annals of military history are full of much worse cases of accidental friendly fire.

thank you Michael; this kind of thing is so disgusting, I am ashamed to be reading this forum. Of course we killed him, I mean, if we were willing to kill Our Lord, why wouldn't we kill a president? This is the kind of un-veiled and vicious anti-Semitism which roils so much below the surface of American life.  To paraphrase Lenny Bruce, it's true, we found a note which said:

"we killed him, we killed JFK. We did it because he wouldn't become a doctor."

signed, Morty -

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I was not aware that guests could post topics, especially bizarre ones, since there is no accountability unless the guest gives their identity. 

 

Michael,

   The only bizarre post on this thread is your debunked claim that the arrest of the five "dancing" Israelis near Giants Stadium on 9/11 is a "wingnut myth." It happened.  We even know their names.

    Why do you persist in posting falsehoods on the subject?

     As for Mossad history, is it "anti-Semitic" to even mention it? 

     That's like saying that it's "anti-American" to mention anything about the CIA.

      I understand that Israel has been in a dangerous predicament since 1947, but not all Israelis agree with right wing Likud Party military ops-- just as not all Americans agree with CIA and U.S. military ops.

     Menachem Begin and his Irgun associates dressed up like Arabs when they blew up the King David Hotel.

     Mossad agents did the same thing in the Lavon Affair.

     It's part of history, and this is a history forum.

Edited July 11, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Allen Lowe]

I am amazed - if that's a strong enough word - that ANYONE is repeating the thing about Israelis dancing on top of a van, or smiling or whatever TF they were supposed to be doing. Dancing on top of a van? Try doing this with one person let alone 3. You will fall on your dumb asses. Are you aware that American Nazis have been involved in spreading this crap? And that these men were sighted by a lady looking at the WTC with binoculars who said they were smiling - as though she could see all this - then WHAT THE HELL was she doing watching the burning WTC? Maybe exactly what these guys were doing - this is all so repulsive and stupid that I just had to post this to tell you how dumb anyone who spreads this stuff is. Shame on you all. Moderators, how can you permit this?

[W. Niederhut]

20 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

I am amazed - if that's a strong enough word - that ANYONE is repeating the thing about Israelis dancing on top of a van, or smiling or whatever TF they were supposed to be doing. Dancing on top of a van? Try doing this with one person let alone 3. You will fall on your dumb asses. Are you aware that American Nazis have been involved in spreading this crap? And that these men were sighted by a lady looking at the WTC with binoculars who said they were smiling - as though she could see all this - then WHAT THE HELL was she doing watching the burning WTC? Maybe exactly what these guys were doing - this is all so repulsive and stupid that I just had to post this to tell you how dumb anyone who spreads this stuff is. Shame on you all. Moderators, how can you permit this?

Allen,

     Go back and study the references on this thread about the arrest and 70 day FBI detentions of the five Israelis.

     No one said they were dancing "on top" of vans.

     Witnesses in NJ called the police after seeing them filming and celebrating the WTC demolitions, before driving away in a white van.  They were later arrested, in the van, near Giants Stadium, and held in FBI custody for 70 days, before being released to Israel.

      They later appeared on Israeli television, and said that they were filming the WTC demolitions to "document the event."

      The five young men were working for a company in Weehawken, NJ called Urban Moving Systems. Their boss, Dominick Suter, allegedly a Mossad agent, fled to Israel after the five young men were arrested on 9/11.

    

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Allen,

     Go back and study the references on this thread about the arrest and 70 day FBI detentions of the five Israelis.

     No one said they were dancing "on top" of vans.

     Witnesses in NJ called the police after seeing them filming and celebrating the WTC demolitions, before driving away in a white van.  They were later arrested, in the van, near Giants Stadium, and held in FBI custody for 70 days, before being released to Israel.

      They later appeared on Israeli television, and said that they were filming the WTC demolitions to "document the event."

      The five young men were working for a company in Weehawken, NJ called Urban Moving Systems. Their boss, Dominick Suter, allegedly a Mossad agent, fled to Israel after the five young men were arrested on 9/11.

    

And what do you make of this? A bunch of Mossad agents celebrating their organization’s success? Sure, they were arrested, and held for 70 days, then released. Unseemly behavior yes, guilty of something? Why do you think this arrest and later release is important? Do you have a theory in which this is a clue, along with other clues? I am the last person, as you know, who thinks criticizing Israel or Mossad is necessarily anti-Semitic. And I also think we haven’t been told the truth about the 9/11 attacks and subsequent apparent demolitions. But I cannot find a reason to use this particular story as an entry point into a conspiracy involving Mossad. So again, with all due respect, what is your theory? 

[James DiEugenio]

 

Who is the Guest who posted this?

Is it Chris B.?

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

And what do you make of this? A bunch of Mossad agents celebrating their organization’s success? Sure, they were arrested, and held for 70 days, then released. Unseemly behavior yes, guilty of something? Why do you think this arrest and later release is important? Do you have a theory in which this is a clue, along with other clues? I am the last person, as you know, who thinks criticizing Israel or Mossad is necessarily anti-Semitic. And I also think we haven’t been told the truth about the 9/11 attacks and subsequent apparent demolitions. But I cannot find a reason to use this particular story as an entry point into a conspiracy involving Mossad. So again, with all due respect, what is your theory? 

Paul,

     C'mon, man.  Unseemly behavior?

    At the very least, the arrest of these five young men on 9/11 indicates that the Mossad had foreknowledge of the 9/11 op, doesn't it?  How else did they know that there was going to be an "event" that they needed to "document?"  And why were they celebrating the disaster, with cigarette lighters, etc. -- as the photos released by the FBI (following an FOIA lawsuit) indicate?  

   Aren't people on this forum supposed to be intellectually curious, and knowledgeable, about military and intelligence black ops and psy ops-- including the CIA "Operation Mockingbird" phenomenon in our M$M?

    Why would critically important stories like the arrest of these five young "dancing" Israelis on 9/11, and the obvious expert demolition of WTC7, have been completely blacked out of the U.S. mainstream media for the past 22 years?

     The 9/11 evidence is "unspeakable" in America-- unmentionable.

    Joseph McBride pointed out during the Spike Lee censorship incident a while ago that 9/11 is the ultimate third rail in modern American journalism.  It's off limits-- other than M$M propaganda tropes denigrating 9/11 "conspiracy theorists."

     Even on this very thread, Allen Lowe has accused 9/11 researchers of being "Nazis"-- which, incidentally, is a violation of Education Forum policy.  And Michael Griffith has repeatedly referred to the scientists, scholars, and engineers in the 9/11 research community as "nutty," nutcases," etc.  With impunity.

     Something is terribly wrong here.  It's analogous to the denigration of Jim Garrison and JFK "truthers" in the years following JFK's murder, only worse.

Edited July 12, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Calvin Ye]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Who is the Guest who posted this?

Is it Chris B.?

 

It is Chris B who either delete his account or got banned from this forum

[Anthony Thorne]

9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

They later appeared on Israeli television, and said that they were filming the WTC demolitions to "document the event."

I'd caution against researchers citing that as a fact, as there's no evidence anywhere confirming this. I've seen the same screenshots and videos that everyone else has of the guys apparently from Israeli TV. There's no transcript of their statements, no audio, and an unidentified narrator makes the same claim that W. Niederhut makes above. It's all very tenuous and there's every chance the claim was made to lead researchers up the garden path - i.e for all I know the men simply appeared on television and told the host, "Well, we're glad that's over with and it's great to be back home."

But the Israelis in question were definitely on top of a van, were celebrating at one point, and were definitely arrested. From Marc Perelman's article in the Jewish Daily Forward, March 2002 - 

https://web.archive.org/web/20030413184526/http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html

Quote

 

According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front.

After their arrest, the men were held in detention for two-and-a-half months and were deported at the end of November, officially for visa violations.

However, a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials.

"The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it," he said. "The conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs but that they could leave because they did not know anything about 9/11."

However, he added, the bureau was "very irritated because it was a case of so-called unilateral espionage, meaning they didn't know about it."

Spokesmen for the FBI, the Justice Department and the Immigration and Naturalization Service refused to discuss the case. Israeli officials flatly dismissed the allegations as untrue.

However, the former American official said that after American authorities confronted Jerusalem on the issue at the end of last year, the Israeli government acknowledged the operation and apologized for not coordinating it with Washington.

The five men — Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel — were arrested eight hours after the attacks by the Bergen County, N.J., police while driving in an Urban Moving Systems van. The police acted on an FBI alert after the men allegedly were seen acting strangely while watching the events from the roof of their warehouse and the roof of their van.

 

So I wasn't there, but if Allen Lowe wants to query why folks believe the arrested suspects were on top of a van, he can ask the New Jersey police who made the claim in their original report.

The FOIA release of some police documents, complete with pictures of the goofballs involved from the morning, is linked here.

https://www.scribd.com/document/409691150/FOIA-Release-of-9-11-Dancing-Israelis-thru-the-FBI#

Christopher Ketchum's March 2007 article on the men for Counterpunch cites the above Forward piece, and goes into additional detail.

Quote

 

On the afternoon of September 11, 2001, an FBI bulletin known as a BOLO – “be on lookout” – was issued with regard to three suspicious men who that morning were seen leaving the New Jersey waterfront minutes after the first plane hit World Trade Center 1. Law enforcement officers across the New York-New Jersey area were warned in the radio dispatch to watch for a “vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack”:

White, 2000 Chevrolet van… with ‘Urban Moving Systems’ sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center… Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals.

 

At 3:56 p.m., twenty-five minutes after the issuance of the FBI BOLO, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department stopped the commercial moving van through a trace on the plates. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approached the stopped van, demanding that the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, 23-year-old Sivan Kurz­berg, refused and “was asked several more times [but] appeared to be fumbling with a black leather fanny pouch type of bag”. With guns drawn, the police then “physi­cally removed” Kurz­berg, while four other men – two more men had apparently joined the group since the morning – were also removed from the van, handcuffed, placed on the grass median and read their Miranda rights. They had not been told the reasons for their arrest. Yet, according to DeCarlo’s report, “this officer was told without question by the driver [Sivan Kurzberg], ‘We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.’” Another of the five Israelis, again without prompting, told Officer DeCarlo – falsely – that “we were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the incident”.

From inside the vehicle the officers, who were quickly joined by agents from the FBI, retrieved multiple passports and $4,700 in cash stuffed in a sock. According to New Jersey’s Bergen Record, which on September 12 reported the arrest of the five Israelis, an investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy stated that officers had also discovered in the vehicle “maps of the city … with certain places highlighted. It looked like they’re hooked in with this”, the source told the Record, referring to the 9/11 attacks. “It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.”

The five men were indeed Israeli citizens. They claimed to be in the country working as movers for Urban Moving Systems Inc., which maintained a warehouse and office in Weehawken, New Jersey. They were held for 71 days in a federal detention center in Brooklyn, New York, during which time they were repeatedly interrogated by FBI and CIA counterterrorism teams, who referred to the men as the “high-fivers” for their celebratory behavior on the New Jersey waterfront. Some were placed in solitary confinement for at least forty days; some were given as many as seven lie detector tests. One of the Israelis, Paul Kurzberg, brother of Sivan, refused to take a lie-detector test for ten weeks. Then he failed it.

Meanwhile, two days after the men were picked up, the owner of Urban Moving Systems, Dominik Suter, a 31- year-old Israeli national, abandoned his business and fled the United States for Israel. Suter’s departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. The suspicion, as the in­­vestigation unfolded, was that the men working for Urban Moving Systems were spies. Who exactly was handling them, and who or what they were targeting, was as yet uncertain.

It was New York’s venerable Jewish weekly The Forward that broke this story in the spring of 2002, after months of footwork. The Forward reported that the FBI had finally concluded that at least two of the men were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. Two former CIA officers confirmed this to me, noting that movers’ vans are a common intelligence cover. The Forward also noted that the Israeli government itself admitted that the men were spies. A “former high-ranking American in­tel­ligence official”, who said he was “regularly briefed on the inves­tigation by two separate law enforcement officials”, told reporter Marc Perelman that after American authorities confronted Jeru­salem at the end of 2001, the Israeli government “acknowledged the operation and apologized for not coordinating it with Wash­ington”. Today, Perelman stands by his reporting. I asked him if his sources in the Mossad denied the story. “Nobody stopped talking to me”, he said. In June 2002, ABC News’ 20/20 followed up with its own investigation into the matter, coming to the same conclusion as The Forward. Vincent Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA, told 20/20 that some of the names of the five men appeared as hits in searches of an FBI national intelligence database. Cannistraro told me that the question that most troubled FBI agents in the weeks and months after 9/11 was whether the Israelis had arrived at the site of their “celebration” with foreknowledge of the attack to come. From the beginning, “the FBI investigation operated on the premise that the Israelis had foreknowledge”, according to Cannistraro. A second former CIA counterterrorism officer who closely followed the case, but who spoke on condition of anonymity, told me that investigators were pursuing two theories. “One story was that [the Israelis] appeared at Liberty State Park very quickly after the first plane hit. The other was that they were at the park location already”. Either way, investigators wanted to know exactly what the men were expecting when they got there.

Before such issues had been fully explored, however, the in­­vestigation was shut down. Following what ABC News reported were “high-level negotiations between Israeli and U.S. government officials”, a settlement was reached in the case of the five Urban Moving Systems suspects. Intense political pressure apparently had been brought to bear. The reputable Is­­raeli daily Ha’aretz reported that by the last week of October 2001,some six weeks after the men had been detained, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and two unidentified “prominent New York congressmen” were lobbying heavily for their release. Ac­­cording to a source at ABC News close to the 20/20 report, high-profile criminal lawyer Alan Der­showitz also stepped in as a negotiator on behalf of the men to smooth out differences with the U.S. government. (Dershowitz declined to comment for this article.) And so, at the end of No­­vem­ber 2001, for reasons that only noted they had been working in the country illegally as movers, in violation of their visas, the men were flown home to Israel.

Today, the crucial questions raised by this matter remain un­­answered. There is sufficient reason – from news reports, statements by former intelligence officials, an array of circumstantial evidence, and the reported acknowledgment by the Israeli government – to believe that in the months before 9/11, Israel was running an active spy network inside the United States, with Muslim extremists as the target. Given Israel’s concerns about Islamic terrorism as well as its long history of spying on U.S. soil, this does not come entirely as a shock. What’s incendiary is the idea – supported, though not proven, by several pieces of evidence – that the Israelis did learn something about 9/11 in advance but failed to share all of what they knew with American officials. The questions are disturbing enough to warrant a Congressional investigation.

Yet none of this information found its way into Congress’s joint committee report on the attacks, and it was not even tangentially referenced in the nearly 600 pages of the 9/11 Com­mission’s final report. Nor would a single major media outlet track the revelations of The Forward and ABC News to investigate further. “There weren’t even stories saying it was bullshit”, says The Forward’s Perelman. “Honestly, I was surprised”. In­­stead, the story disappeared into the welter of anti-Israel 9/11 conspiracy theories.

It’s no small boon to the U.S. government that the story of 9/11-related Israeli espionage has been thus relegated: the story doesn’t fit in the clean lines of the official narrative of the attacks. It brings up concerns not only about Israel’s obligation not to spy inside the borders of the United States, its major benefactor, but about its possible failure to have provided the U.S. adequate warning of an impending devastating attack on American soil.

 

If Allen above needs further confirmation that the event happened, someone else can post the photos of the twits involved from the FOIA document linked above.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Anthony Thorne

[Sean Coleman]

On 7/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, Anthony Thorne said:

I'd caution against researchers citing that as a fact, as there's no evidence anywhere confirming this. I've seen the same screenshots and videos that everyone else has of the guys apparently from Israeli TV. There's no transcript of their statements, no audio, and an unidentified narrator makes the same claim that W. Niederhut makes above. It's all very tenuous and there's every chance the claim was made to lead researchers up the garden path - i.e for all I know the men simply appeared on television and told the host, "Well, we're glad that's over with and it's great to be back home."

But the Israelis in question were definitely on top of a van, were celebrating at one point, and were definitely arrested. From Marc Perelman's article in the Jewish Daily Forward, March 2002 - 

https://web.archive.org/web/20030413184526/http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html

So I wasn't there, but if Allen Lowe wants to query why folks believe the arrested suspects were on top of a van, he can ask the New Jersey police who made the claim in their original report.

The FOIA release of some police documents, complete with pictures of the goofballs involved from the morning, is linked here.

https://www.scribd.com/document/409691150/FOIA-Release-of-9-11-Dancing-Israelis-thru-the-FBI#

Christopher Ketchum's March 2007 article on the men for Counterpunch cites the above Forward piece, and goes into additional detail.

If Allen above needs further confirmation that the event happened, someone else can post the photos of the twits involved from the FOIA document linked above.

 

 

 

The twits, as requested. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Anthony Thorne]

Thank you Sean. The FOIA documents have their selfies from the morning, where none of them appear to be particularly gloomy.

[W. Niederhut]

Anthony,

       Here's a YouTube clip that includes footage of;

1) the lady in New Jersey who called the cops after watching the five "dancing" Israelis film and celebrate the WTC demolitions on the morning of 9/11,

2) the New Jersey cop who later arrested the five men in their white van, near Giants Stadium, and

3) the appearance of the five young men on Israeli television in November of 2001.

   I was wrong about one detail.  You were correct about the report that the young men were actually seen "on the van." It's been a few years since I studied this stuff.

     

Edited July 12, 2023 by W. Niederhut