Oliver Stone: "Putin is a great leader for his country."

[Douglas Caddy]

 

Oliver Stone: ‘Putin is a great leader for his country’ | Oliver Stone | The Guardian

 

Stone: “My favorite president was John Kennedy, so if you look at the two Irishmen sideways, you’ll find that John Kennedy is a peace lover. And you find that Joe Biden is a cold warrior in the worst sense of the word.”

[Michael Griffith]

Oh, wow. Pathetic. Just pathetic. When someone makes such a sick statement, people will naturally reject everything else the person has to say. This is just about as bad as saying in 1940 that "Hitler is a great leader for his country." 

[Guest]

The most entertaining thing about this link was The Guardian’s Oxfam style appeal at the end. Just £2 a month and you can save the world from propaganda .... 

🤣

[Paul Brancato]

The movie looks interesting, and the trailer makes very cogent points, and gives a perspective I’ve never thought of. 

[Matt Allison]

Wow. That's totally off the rails.

I understand that Oliver Stone has carried a huge amount of anger towards the United States pretty much his whole life, and I'm sympathetic to the reasons.

But he has completely lost his perspective. Very unfortunate.

[W. Niederhut]

I have long been puzzled by Oliver Stone's admiration for Putin, especially in light of my own troubling experiences with Putin's annexation of the ROCOR in 2007.

I am a big fan of Oliver Stones' important work-- Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, JFK, Salvador, the Untold History, JFK Revisited, etc.-- and his admiration for Putin has caused me to seriously doubt my own judgment and sources. 

I had a positive opinion of Putin until 2007, when I realized that there is something extraordinarily evil and cynical about the man.  Like his NKVD and KGB predecessors, he has, certainly, viewed the Russian Orthodox Church as a mere tool of the Kremlin.  It's a cynicism that he shares with Stalin.

I did watch Oliver Stone's Putin interviews, and I had the impression that Putin had manipulated and humiliated Oliver Stone by seizing Crimea before that final interview.

Edited May 3, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Guest]

We're living in a world where more than ever, we are required to question our own sense of reality. I am a big fan of the works of Stone, which William mentions, as well as some others. I have had one moment where I questioned whether Stone was being a shill or was compromised, @Matthew Koch actually pointed it out. It had nothing to do with Russia, more to do with an island in the Caribbean. I fear Oliver's wildness may have put him in a bad situation or two. 

Back to our reality. Is there anything that Putin/Russia have done during Putin's reign that we cannot see a mirror image of during the same period concerning a US leader or military? This isn't me picking on the US; you can probably find the same during the early twentieth century featuring the European powers, then? If you can find the same things, then is our difference of opinion purely down to MSM and what is propagated in our own sphere of influence? My point is, there may be differences, such as oligarchs being thrown in jail, or reporters imprisoned but, on the whole, much of what we are insensed about are things that our countries do. Though perhaps there is more sophistication. 

[W. Niederhut]

6 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

We're living in a world where more than ever, we are required to question our own sense of reality. I am a big fan of the works of Stone, which William mentions, as well as some others. I have had one moment where I questioned whether Stone was being a shill or was compromised, @Matthew Koch actually pointed it out. It had nothing to do with Russia, more to do with an island in the Caribbean. I fear Oliver's wildness may have put him in a bad situation or two. 

Back to our reality. Is there anything that Putin/Russia have done during Putin's reign that we cannot see a mirror image of during the same period concerning a US leader or military? This isn't me picking on the US; you can probably find the same during the early twentieth century featuring the European powers, then? If you can find the same things, then is our difference of opinion purely down to MSM and what is propagated in our own sphere of influence? My point is, there may be differences, such as oligarchs being thrown in jail, or reporters imprisoned but, on the whole, much of what we are insensed about are things that our countries do. Though perhaps there is more sophistication. 

But, again, as Russ Baker pointed out so clearly, Putin's war crimes in Ukraine are not justified by U.S. war crimes in the Middle East.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is more logically consistent to condemn both, which I have, in fact, done since 2003.

And Putin has also committed horrific crimes against his own people-- thousands of horrific Russian war casualties, and sending dissenters to the Gulag, like Stalin.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

But, again, as Russ Baker pointed out so clearly, Putin's war crimes in Ukraine are not justified by U.S. war crimes in the Middle East.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

It is more logically consistent to condemn both, which I have, in fact, done since 2003.

And Putin has also committed horrific crimes against his own people-- thousands of horrific Russian war casualties, and sending dissenters to the Gulag, like Stalin.

I agree; one does not excuse the other. Public sentiment seems to indicate that an awful lot of people look at such a thing tribally as opposed to morally. ie it's our team, it doesn't matter. A deep question I have is; how equivalent the two countries and their acts are? Perhaps that is how Stone views it. I do still have deep questions as to why Ukraine is so sacred and Yemen and other places are not. The answer must surely sit with how the situation is propagated on msm?! 

[Michael Griffith]

The next time I recommend Oliver Stone's JFK Revisited to someone, I dearly hope they haven't heard about this embarrassing statement. If they have heard about it and they ask me about it, the best I will be able to do is say that the experts who appear in the documentary have nothing to do with Stone's comment. 

The problem is that when you make such a bizarre statement, people naturally tend to discount everything else you have to say. You can't blame them for reasoning that if your education and judgment are so bad that you would make such a statement and stand by it, they should not trust anything else you have to say. 

Until last year, when I joined this forum, I had no idea that the JFKA research community was in such sorry shape. Until last year, I had no idea that there were so many researchers with fringe, extremist views.

I will continue to recommend JFK Revisited, but Stone has handed our critics damaging ammo on a silver platter by making that comment. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Kirk Gallaway]

Since I think Stone's conversion to Putin, that was so inspiring he made a movie for Putin that would end up justifying his invasion, started with his 4 hour interview.

I remember there was a passage in the 4 hour Putin interview where Stone was asking Putin about how much Putin has benefited by being the head of his klepto kingdom for 20 years (some accounts are into many billions!)and Putin masterfully evaded the question by diverting Stone by appealing to his ego, by saying that after all, the greatest  things in life don't come from money and then holding up Stone as an example of a successful film maker who makes his own film projects following his own vision, for the betterment of society  and mankind, and does what he wants to do. And that's more important than any material gain. Stone is stopped in his tracks  that anyone could appreciate him so fully, he forgets the question, never ends up pursuing it again  leaving a huge question unanswered.

Then I went back to the interview more recently to retrieve that question in the interview and I swear the older version was edited. In Stone's question to Putin , he was trying to get Putin to admit his benefiting financially by sort of validating it by saying  he can understand the temptation of the power of Putin's office by saying "I would like to be rich".

I remember this comment distinctly because it   illustrates something I've always seen, that even  super wealthy mega million dollar people like Stone, nevertheless marvel at people who are much richer than them. After all, by estimates,   he's worth 60-70 million, yet still too cheap to even send Jim Di to Cannes!  heh heh heh Just talking out of my butt. heh heh

 

Guys like Putin can be brilliant men of the world with interesting opinions that can snow someone like Stone. Putin and maybe  Bolosenaro and Erdogan might  give serious competition to the "Dos Equis" Most interesting man in the world!" The reason we don't have many leaders that come off like that and  you often hear their real thoughts later in a book, has to do with Democracy, because in a Democracy politicians are careful not to turn off a groups of people,so there words are very measured and often boring.  The reason why people like Putin, and Trump to some people  appear so brilliant to political novices is because they answer to no one!

 

 

Actually IMO, he does have a point with nuclear power. Many, including Bill Gates has said we should have many more smaller  nuclear power plants. Oh my God! is it a conspiracy! Oh....... no it's Oliver, it couldn't be!

 

******

 

Stone will decry the war but has said after all we made Putin do it. He'll never mention all the destruction that Putin has wrought on these people. But will mention that Putin is popular with his people, yeah, so was Stalin. Stone's big on Free Speech rights, making a movie about Snowden, but if asked about Navalny and Gerrasmoiv and countless others, he'd probably say they're malcontent troublemakers who  had it coming!.

 

Oliver claims Biden, "the worst of the Cold war." But Stone forgets Biden was trying to give Zelensky exile and when he refused and fought, the matter became escalated to the point where there was a potential  question of whether the West and Nato would roll over and allow Putin to slaughter 10's of 1000's of civilians and  And as it turned out. Whatever may happen next.  It's now been 15 months, and his invasion has been a miserable failure where we've seen how ineptly run their entire military operation is, and yet there are still some knuckleheads here, who in a recent post have acted like this invasion has been a stunning success all along!

 

Stone asks how could Biden have unilaterally  let this thing escalate?. Yet he forgets the Grand Daddy of all escalations was when  JFK and Khruschev  let the Cuban Missile Crisis escalate to bring the world to the brink of complete destruction! What the hell is he talking about? We're not near that!

 

There's so much crap going around about JFK "we mustn't be afraid to negotiate", that even his nephew takes it up as a talking point" Which I also see as smart politicking.

 

It's so superficial to say if JFK had been elected in 2020, this whole matter could have been peacefully resolved to everyone's satisfaction 15 months ago.. And it ignores any thought to evolution of the Kennedy's, in an attempt to simplify and whitewash them!  

There's so much politics here about JFK. Do you know the fundamental basis for JFK's popularity in late 1963? It wasn't through JFK's economic policies, which hadn't gotten off the ground, or any stand he took on Civil Rights, which the public was just digesting.

 

Do you really think JFK would have expected  certain re election if he didn't stand up to the Russians in the Cuban Missile Crisis?  He didn't start out with a  candidacy in 1960 that was peace at all costs, at all!. The reason he became popular is because there was a new  post war generation coming to power that wanted a liberal outlook and the JFK Presidency finally permitted it, and he got there, in the public's mind, because he was not peace at all cost, but  by drawing a line with the Russians, he dispelled the pinko label that started  in the red scare and vanquished the hawks!

In the public's mind, for the first time since the beginnings of the Cold War. The future for World Peace looked bright!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Kirk Gallaway

[James DiEugenio]

You know, this shows a really poor background in history by just about everyone on this thread.

Oliver does a lot of reading in history, and in Russian history he was schooled by the late great Princeton scholar Steve Cohen.

Cohen was one of the very few scholars who understood what Gorbachev was trying to do and understood what he was up against.  He thought Gorbachev was visionary.

But Gorbachev made two large errors, one geopoltiical and one domestically.

The first one was not getting a signed agreement from the USA on the non expansion of NATO in return for formal German unification.  Terrible mistake. Like trusting Trump at his word.

Secondly, he should have fired Yeltsin early for insubordination.  Another key mistake.

Yeltsin's plans to turn a communist economy into a free enterprise one overnight was a horrendous mistake that turned Russia into an economic mess.  Probably worse than the USA during the Great Depression, perhaps much worse.  

Yeltsin then turned into a US backed drunken dictator who actually shelled  the opposition inside the capital illegally.  And he was supplied with US backing to stay in office--lot of money-- as the country descended into  a third world zone. And Americans applauded.

These conditions created Putin since he was trying to restore Russian pride after Yeltsin had about wrecked the country.

The other mistake by Gorby, who I liked, is what has caused the present crisis. And this is why Putin resents Gorbachev and will not talk about him today.

I see Gorby as an enormous lost opportunity. That guy did everything he could to expand detente and to eliminate nuclear arms.  That Reagan refused the Iceland offer was a truly shocking moment which showed how crazy the Neocons were and drunk on their own power.  But in another way, it was things  like that which chopped off the floor from under Gorby. And led to the drunken fool Yeltsin. And the wreckage of the Russian economy.

Please let us not forget the causes and effects of history. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Matt Allison]

Gorbachev was a gem; a wonderful human. If he could have remained as President in Russia's transition from communism to capitalism, I bet we wouldn't have the problems we have now.

[James DiEugenio]

I agree.

The guy did everything he could to create a detente.

The deal he offered Reagan in Iceland was mind boggling.

It would have altered history.

[Michael Griffith]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I agree.

The guy did everything he could to create a detente.

The deal he offered Reagan in Iceland was mind boggling.

It would have altered history.

I don't see what this Soviet version of history has to do with Oliver Stone's shameful praise of Putin, one of the most murderous dictators on the planet. 

Gorbachev's deal would have required us to abandon our missile-defense research. Now that virtually everyone recognizes the importance of missile defense, we should thank God that Reagan did not cave to this unreasonable demand. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Michael Griffith