Unraveling the Mystery: Fletcher Prouty's Possible Role in the JFK Assassination

[Michael Griffith]

On 5/17/2023 at 12:17 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Michael Griffith continues to "Swift Boat Vet" Fletcher Prouty with his John McAdams advertisement tropes.

 

You know this is false. My main sources on Prouty are ultra-liberal journalist Chip Berlet, the ADL, and Prouty's own writings, actions, and interviews. I have never once used John McAdams as a source on Prouty, even though, sad to say, most of McAdams' criticisms of Prouty are valid. 

It is mind boggling that you continue to defend Prouty after all we now know about him. If a lone-gunman theorist said and did half the zany and disreputable things that Prouty said and did, you would not hesitate to use those things against him, and you would be entirely justified in doing so. But because you are wed to Prouty's wild theories, you refuse to face reality about him. 

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[W. Niederhut]

When propagandists repeat the lies, we need to repeat the truth.

Col. L. Fletcher Prouty was a respected U.S. military veteran, and a man of exemplary character, who blew the whistle on CIA black ops and the reversal of JFK's Vietnam policy after 11/22/63.

[Adam Johnson]

To me Col L Fletcher Prouty was an enigma......

When did Prouty first come forward with his claims in public re: jfk assassination?

His first newspaper article on Secret government workings was 1971 i believe....

His book "The Secret Team" was published in 1973 but according to Prouty 50,000 copies(its full paperback print run after an initial 1000 copies) were brought up and disappeared from book stores around the US and the world before the public could buy a copy. It wasn't republished with updates until 2008. It also wasnt loaded with JFK assassination questions in 1973?

Did Prouty actually contact Jim Garrison in 1969 before the Clay Shaw trial? 

I'm aware the MR X character in Olivers 91' film is a compilation of sources for Garrison's investigation but did a Prouty/Garrison sit down ever happen in real life in 68' or 69'?

Dulles died in 1969....Charles Cabell in 1971....Ed Landsdale in 1987......

When did prouty's 2nd book JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy come out.....that was 1992? Everyone was dead that could dispute his claims. 

For a career military man to work so closely with the CIA for 9 years, to be in contact weekly with Allen Dulles, John Foster Dulles and Charles Cabell (his claims in the book)during 6 or 7 of those years, to brief sec defence McNamara and Lyman Lemnitzer chairman of the joint chief's of staff and other chief's during Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson administrations, to occasionally have to brief the President of the United States himself and only 7 to 8 years after retirement start writing newspaper articles and then publish a book 9 years after retiring and not have the CIA come down on you like a tonne of bricks staggers me!

It has always been my underlying doubt with the information Col Prouty gave the world....files remain hidden 60 years but Col Prouty could throw stones(boulders even) 7,8,9 10 years into retirement without any repercussion's.

How does that happen......Unless permission was given?

Perhaps.......how well did Prouty and Helms know each other?

HELMS in my oopinion was evil personified and enjoyed it....his appearances before congress oozed his distain for elected officials.

I know several of our members will have met Col Prouty personally and I'm sure were friendly with him and will have a vastly different opinion of him to mine.

I admit there was plenty of facts in his reveals, I'm also sure there were many red herrings in his reveals. I'm a poker player, my gut tells me Col Prouty was bluffing some of the time.

To what end, i dont know!

Regards to all,

AJ.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Adam Johnson
Spelling

[Allen Lowe]

On 5/13/2023 at 12:41 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Except for the E. Howard Hunt look-alike the other two fellows were too well dressed and shaven to be real hobo's imo.

There is currently a Netflix TV movie show about Hunt and Liddy regards the Watergate event.

In one episode we see Hunt donning a wig to hide his true identity during one of his escapades before the Watergate break-in.

We all know fake disguises were definitely part of the intel covert actions protocol from time to time.

Elaborate ones included.

It's not illogical to keep this reality in mind when considering the possibility of disguises being used in important covert events.

 

 

in terms of appearance, how many tramps have you known and met?

[W. Niederhut]

Question for Adam Johnson.

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

To me Col L Fletcher Prouty was an enigma......

When did Prouty first come forward with his claims in public re: jfk assassination?

His first newspaper article on Secret government workings was 1971 i believe....

His book "The Secret Team" was published in 1973 but according to Prouty 50,000 copies(its full paperback print run after an initial 1000 copies) were brought up and disappeared from book stores around the US and the world before the public could buy a copy. It wasn't republished with updates until 2008. It also wasnt loaded with JFK assassination questions in 1973?

Did Prouty actually contact Jim Garrison in 1969 before the Clay Shaw trial? 

I'm aware the MR X character in Olivers 91' film is a compilation of sources for Garrison's investigation but did a Prouty/Garrison sit down ever happen in real life in 68' or 69'?

Dulles died in 1969....Charles Cabell in 1971....Ed Landsdale in 1987......

When did prouty's 2nd book JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy come out.....that was 2011? Everyone was dead that could dispute his claims. 

For a career military man to work so closely with the CIA for 9 years, to be in contact weekly with Allen Dulles, John Foster Dulles and Charles Cabell (his claims in the book)during 6 or 7 of those years, to brief sec defence McNamara and Lyman Lemnitzer chairman of the joint chief's of staff and other chief's during Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson administrations, to occasionally have to brief the President of the United States himself and only 7 to 8 years after retirement start writing newspaper articles and then publish a book 9 years after retiring and not have the CIA come down on you like a tonne of bricks staggers me!

It has always been my underlying doubt with the information Col Prouty gave the world....files remain hidden 60 years but Col Prouty could throw stones(boulders even) 7,8,9 10 years into retirement without any repercussion's.

How does that happen......Unless permission was given?

Perhaps.......how well did Prouty and Helms know each other?

HELMS in my oopinion was evil personified and enjoyed it....his appearances before congress oozed his distain for elected officials.

I know several of our members will have met Col Prouty personally and I'm sure were friendly with him and will have a vastly different opinion of him to mine.

I admit there was plenty of facts in his reveals, I'm also sure there were many red herrings in his reveals. I'm a poker player, my gut tells me Col Prouty was bluffing some of the time.

To what end, i dont know!

Regards to all,

AJ.

 

A.J.,

     If Prouty was collaborating with the CIA, why was his work an indictment of Dulles's "secret team," CIA black ops expert Ed Lansdale, and putative Deep State motives for murdering JFK?

     If I recall correctly, the timing of the belated publication of Prouty's book on JFK and Vietnam had more to do with end of life issues.

     Like Wayne January, Prouty was a "man who knew too much," and didn't want to die prematurely.

      My hunch is that Len Osanic and Greg Burnham could answer your specific questions.

[Adam Johnson]

58 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Prouty was collaborating with the CIA, why was his work an indictment of Dulles's "secret team," CIA black ops expert Ed Lansdale, and putative Deep State motives for murdering JFK?

Dulles was dead, Cabell was dead...if anyone would have been mad at him it would of been Richard Helms........what did we get from Helms on Prouty in the 70's.....crickets.

How fiercely did Helms protect the CIA!!!!! Did Prouty face any CIA rebuke? Ever?

Remember Prouty states only 1000 copies of his 1973 book actually made it out to the public...he didnt ramp up his profile on JFK until 1991 and the success of Olivers film. His second book about the assassination was published in 1992.

Can anyone see that CIA's lack of response to Prouty in the 70's and 90's is unusual?

AJ

Edited May 18, 2023 by Adam Johnson
Spelling errors

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

Can anyone see that CIA's lack of response to Prouty in the 70's and 90's is unusual?

 

Yes, I see it as unusual. So why would the CIA not do anything about what Prouty revealed?

Speculating, the only reason I can think of is that Prouty was blackmailing the CIA. If the CIA did anything to him, a confidant would release some damning information on the CIA.

Any other ideas?

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Adam Johnson said:

Dulles was dead, Cabell was dead...if anyone would have been mad at him it would of been Richard Helms........what did we get from Helms on Prouty in the 70's.....crickets.

How fiercely did Helms protect the CIA!!!!! Did Prouty face any CIA rebuke? Ever?

Remember Prouty states only 1000 copies of his 1973 book actually made it out to the public...he didnt ramp up his profile on JFK until 1991 and the success of Olivers film. His second book about the assassination was published in 1992.

Can anyone see that CIA's lack of response to Prouty in the 70's and 90's is unusual?

AJ

AJ,

    Surely you don't believe that the CIA objective of covering up the JFK assassination plot-- and promoting public acceptance of the WCR-- ended with the deaths of Allen Dulles and Richard Cabell, do you?

    The systematic murders of key JFKA witnesses-- e.g., De Mohrenschildt and Giancana-- continued well after the death of Dulles, and the Mockingbird psy op to suppress the truth about JFKA in our M$M has continued to the present day.

     From what I have read, Prouty was, definitely, concerned about "crossing a line" with the CIA.  And he was fully aware of the assassination capabilities of Murder, Inc.

[Paul Rigby]

To follow, some typed notes:

The Salandrian analyis of Prouty & his work 

As set out in various places within Michael D. Morrisey’s Correspondence with Vincent Salandria 1993-2000 (Lulu, 2007) 

1) Prouty was launched as the Pentagon’s response to the CIA’s Pentagon Papers. Salandria: 

In answer to the Agency’s self-serving re-write of the origins of the Vietnam War, Prouty gave us, among other things well worth having, chapter and verse on NSAMs 51, 53 & 55, Kennedy’s attempts to curb the Agency’s role and transfer its paramilitary powers to McNamara and the nascent DIA. Prouty’s placement of Lansdale in Dealey Plaza may be read, at one level, as a pointed reminder to the Agency of its role in the Dulles Bros end-run around Eisenhower/Lawton-Collins mission to Saigon – to dump Diem - in 1955. 

2) Prouty challenged the CIA to the precise extent that he reinforced & exonerated it: 

He lauded the Dulles Bros, Cabell, Krulak etc in the Acknowledgments to ST (Secret Team), at one point claiming that he “knew” Dulles, Lansdale & Cabell were definitely not involved in Dallas (CwVS, 390); defended the Warren Report as a necessary expedient (Secret Team, 420, CwVS 334); & repeatedly described the ST as a Dulles-CIA controlled network, but nevertheless insisted that neither AWD nor the CIA was responsible for the Dallas coup (CwVS, 335). In sum, Salandria argues that the concepts of both the ST and, above it, the High Cabal (CwVS, 345), were fictions designed to let the CIA, as an institution, off the hook. He goes on to note that this is a common trait among ex-intel officers (Boxley, Turner, Newman; Ibid). 

To reconcile 1) and 2) we need to supply an ingredient missing from VS’s analysis: to wit, Prouty was, in essence, absorbed and co-opted by the CIA 

3) Prouty’s cheer-leaders are hypocrites 

Salandria observes that unsourced allegations from Prouty are treated as gospel, while similar claims from others – not least himself – are greeted, by the very same critics, as mere conjecture or worse (CwVS, 349).

If anyone has the full passages from Salandria's musings on Prouty, please post.

[Paul Brancato]

Interesting about Salandria. I think the post I left on the more recent thread about Oliver Stone and Prouty more properly belong here. I’m becoming more suspicious of Prouty as time goes on. I’m leaning towards Limited Hangout. Someone made off with my copy of Secret Team, but in any case I found it boring. He claimed that he was removed from the scene that day. Maybe he removed himself, and later pointed the finger at Lansdale. As Adam says, he never faced any retribution. 

[Adam Johnson]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Surely you don't believe that the CIA objective of covering up the JFK assassination plot-- and promoting public acceptance of the WCR-- ended with the deaths of Allen Dulles and Richard Cabell, do you?

(Hello Mr. Niederhut, no i certainly dont..McCone took over until 65 after dulles was gone and was treacherous in my eyes, Helms kicked in from 66 to 73, Schlesinger was a pimple gone in 4 months, then we had Colby and George W from 73 thru 77. Colby seemed to show some humanity over time, not so GHW Bush.)

    The systematic murders of key JFKA witnesses-- e.g., De Mohrenschildt and Giancana-- continued well after the death of Dulles, and the Mockingbird psy op to suppress the truth about JFKA in our M$M has continued to the present day.

(I agree totally) 

     From what I have read, Prouty was, definitely, concerned about "crossing a line" with the CIA.  And he was fully aware of the assassination capabilities of Murder, Inc. (Yet from 1973 until 1992 he published no other books regarding the CIA or the assassination....but from 1987 to 1991 his media presence begins to peak and his contact with other JFK researchers becomes more common! Pray tell what major event in the jfk timeline is approaching from 87 to 91?)

Please let me state, he told truths, he told some half truths and he got somethings wrong...he certainly gave credence to our community but he received zero blow back for revealing such highly sensitive information...the US Government doesn't do that to people leaking its secrets...

"why did Leroy get a free pass?"

AJ

 

[Benjamin Cole]

When it comes to the JFKA, trust but verify. 

There are many characters associated with the JFKA who say what we want to hear, whether a CT'er, LN'er. Confirmation bias. 

But what good is, say, a Richard Nagell, with his unverifiable and sometimes self-contradictory claims? 

There is lots and lots of hard stuff out there now. I advise sticking to what can be verified beyond reasonable doubt. 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

19 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

in terms of appearance, how many tramps have you known and met?

AL...you've got me there.

I admit, my take on their dress is based only on my general perception of such.

I have traveled by train a dozen times in my life and been around fairly large train yards where passenger trains and cargo cars all stop and go through.

I've seen a few wandering fellows in those yards and even seen some on box cars as the long cargo trains go through cities and along roadways. Lot of rail traffic here in California.

Commercial train depots and most every open box car I have ever seen were filthy, as one would expect. Dirt, dust, debris, oily grime, rust, graffiti...you name it.

I assume the Dallas train yard and box cars there in 1963 were no different?

Still, my dress and appearance take on someone being found hanging around or even in box cars like the ones the Dallas "tramps" were found and pulled from is only a general assumption.

Shouldn't have posted it really.

Oh, just remembered an interesting memory of my own small town back in 1963, even when JFK was killed on 11,22,1963.

We actually had our own small train depot in our little coastal town of Pacific Grove, CA.

It was originally built in the late 1800's!

Southern Pacific has always had a rail system that brought people and cargo from the San Francisco Bay area...all the way down to Santa Cruz and even the Monterey Peninsula.

This was a separate route besides the main route that went through Salinas and farther South.

Amazingly the tracks rode right along and on the top of the shoreline, just 100 feet from the little inlet beaches and rocky outcropping into the water below.

You'll recall this rail route and tracks running right through Steinbeck's Cannery Row. Doc Ricketts was killed one evening as his car was hit by the train there.

As a kid, all of us young boys here were constantly walking these rails as they took you all along the shoreline and from one town to the next.

Our little old train station's main passenger loading building was abandoned in the 1940's or 50's I believe.

Amazingly the train company just left it standing and deteriorating with broken windows and dirt everywhere for years after!

It was like an old movie set! Fascinating place for young boys to wander through and throw a few more rocks through the windows.

I am also amazed the city let it stand like that for years. No "NO TRESPASSING" signs, ever.

I think one reason was that there was still a train coming through there almost daily on weekdays.

The tracks through our little town dead-ended at a large "sand plant" that operated at the edge of Pebble Beach next to a long stretch of sandy beach called "Asilomar."

This company was removing sand there, bagging it and the train would come down and load up and take it back to the Bay Area or wherever, to the glass manufacturers who used the sand for that purpose.

My oldest brother actually got a summer job at the sand plant lifting and throwing 100lb bags of sand into the box cars during the late 1950s!

He injured his back doing that ( but continued working until the end of Summer because he needed the money ) and this plagued him the rest of his life. No injury compensations back then. 

Our little train depot had a water tower, an engine "turn around" apparatus and a few side tracks off the main one.

The famous writer Lucius Beebe would have the train bring his own private box car to our little coast-side station from San Francisco, have it pulled off on a side track and stay there for days at a time? Maybe a week?

I know this because as a kid walking by this ornate private car I stopped and gawked at it one day...just walking the tracks and wandering through the old station.

I met the writer sitting or standing on the open stair platform there. He didn't introduce himself. He just said something like "hello son." He had one or two large dogs with him.

I walked on. I read much later who he was from local newspaper articles.

But relating back again to the original subject of the filth of trains and depots and tracks ... 

There was so much dirt and oily grime throughout the station and tracks.

The track supporting timbers were soaked in creosote.

You could literally touch this black tar stuff. It oozed out of the wood.

Once it got on your hands and clothes it was a b**** to ever get it off.

Same with walking all through Cannery Row on the tracks there.

Back in the 1950's Cannery Row itself was 90% abandoned as the sardines had been fished out by then and all the old cannery buildings were just crumbling.

Cannery Row was just filthy...and it even stunk!

I can remember seeing large drums full of used oil ( sardine oil? ) just sitting next to the one or two old cannery buildings still operating there in the 1950's. We used to stir the odd color oil with old sticks we found.

They stunk.

Starting with arson fires there like crazy in the late fifties and this dirty lot filled place being bought up "dirt cheap", all of a sudden Steinbeck's old funky Cannery Row was turned into this tourist trap circus with trinket shops and restaurants.

When the Italians built the famous "Sardine Factory" restaurant there ( with dirt lots on either side ) Cannery Row tourist trap building really went into full gear.

You can see the empty lots next to the Sardine Factory restaurant in the Clint Eastwood film "Play Misty For Me." Clint's character would go into the Sardine Factory bar to get beers regularly throughout the film.

Just some real life experience memories...with dirty train tracks and seeing empty train box cars up close as a kid back in the late 1950's and early 1960's here on the central California Coast.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Allen Lowe]

54 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

AL...you've got me there.

I admit, my take on their dress is based only on my general perception of such.

I have traveled by train a dozen times in my life and been around fairly large train yards where passenger trains and cargo cars all stop and go through.

I've seen a few wandering fellows in those yards and even seen some on box cars as the long cargo trains go through cities and along roadways. Lot of rail traffic here in California.

Commercial train depots and most every open box car I have ever seen were filthy, as one would expect. Dirt, dust, debris, oily grime, rust, graffiti...you name it.

I assume the Dallas train yard and box cars there in 1963 were no different?

Still, my dress and appearance take on someone being found hanging around or even in box cars like the ones the Dallas "tramps" were found and pulled from is only a general assumption.

Shouldn't have posted it really.

 

 

apologies for being overly glib; I just worry, on this topic, that we have to be as attentive to detail and credibility as possible.

[Joe Bauer]

42 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

apologies for being overly glib; I just worry, on this topic, that we have to be as attentive to detail and credibility as possible.

The postings regards Prouty in this thread are incredibly researched and fascinating to read.

Amazing the deep reading research findings our members have dug up.

Prouty is being portrayed here as an enigma to say the least.

However, without Prouty the importance of JFK's Viet Nam policy and it's possible part in his removal would never have been brought out to the study degree it has since.

Prouty did expose many truths about the inner workings of highest intel apparatus that we would not know of as we now do.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Joe Bauer