Walker Bullet Article in KennedysandKing

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Tom let's set the record straight. Do you actually believe that CE573 is a switcheroo bullet? I'm assuming you agree with everything said in that article as proof. Ben said it was a switcheroo, do you? 

I'm not going to argue your article on EF, but only seeking for clarification on your position before I address this "article" later. I don't want to misquote or put words in your mouth. State your position clearly whether or not CE573 was, or was not, the bullet found in the Walker home. 

Thank you. 

SR-

I look forward to your review. 

I will answer your question thusly: I would give you 10-to-one odds that CE573 is not the slug found in the Walker home on April 10, 1963. 

Can I prove the CE573 is ersatz? No. 

The evidence we have points to CE573 as being ersatz. 

No evidence exists to prove the Walker Bullet was copper jacketed--in fact no evidence exists at all.  No contemporary police reports, no photographs, no lab reports. 

Day's mark cannot be found on CE573. 

Can you find a single reference in literature that all rifle bullets were ever classified as "steel jacketed"? Especially as the vast preponderance of rifle bullets were and are copper jacketed---indeed, copper-jacketing was invented due to the explosive power of rifle bullets.

Moreover, you accept that police agencies were breezily conflating steel and copper-jacketed bullets---in the case of evidence collected at the scene of a murder attempt on a high profile victim? 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Ness]

20 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sorry, I still beg to differ.  LHO toting a gun on a bus, maybe wrapped in a raincoat per Marina?  LHO buried the gun on the way back?  With his hands?  Did he have a shovel under the raincoat too?

In a previous life I had an M1 carbine and an Uzi and there ain't no way I was wandering onto a bus OR into somebody's car without raising eyebrows. Even in Texas I imagine.

[Benjamin Cole]

5 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

Kudos to you and @Tom Gram for the excellent write up! Quite interesting.

I'll be looking for the response from the usual suspects to see what they have to say. From all appearances it certainly looks very much like the Keystone Kops bit found almost everywhere else.

Someday I plan on writing a transcript of a fictitious courtroom scene wherein the DPD is cross examined on their training on "How to close a door" since that seems to be beyond their skill set in innumerable instances in this case.

BN--

Thank you for your gracious comment.

There are few more memos to track down, perhaps some additional sources of info, but I think Tom Gram and I have produced the first draft of the definitive article on the Walker Bullet. 

 

[Mark Ulrik]

6 minutes ago, Bob Ness said:

In a previous life I had an M1 carbine and an Uzi and there ain't no way I was wandering onto a bus OR into somebody's car without raising eyebrows. Even in Texas I imagine.

Well, someone got the rifle into the TSBD without raising eyebrows. Besides, in the Walker case, Oswald was careful not to travel with it on the same day he used it, but a few days before and after.

[James DiEugenio]

That is, the Walker Bullet missed Walker, then passed through an interior wall behind Walker. The Walker Bullet then purportedly came to rest in-between bundles of paper.^[16]

 

^{I mean come on!}

[Mark Ulrik]

4 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is, the Walker Bullet missed Walker, then passed through an interior wall behind Walker. The Walker Bullet then purportedly came to rest in-between bundles of paper.^[16]

 

^{I mean come on!}

It had to come to rest somewhere, and apparently the paper provided sufficient resistance (not unlike Connally's thigh). What do you think happened with the bullet that went through the wall? Just how many bullet switches do you guys imagine took place?

[Benjamin Cole]

24 minutes ago, Mark Ulrik said:

It had to come to rest somewhere, and apparently the paper provided sufficient resistance (not unlike Connally's thigh). What do you think happened with the bullet that went through the wall? Just how many bullet switches do you guys imagine took place?

MU--

The questionable part is "in between" bundles of paper. 

You see the photograph of the bundles in the KandK article. There are bundles of paper, encased in paper packaging, much like if you buy 500 sheets of paper today, and they are encased tightly in a paper package.

Patrolman Norvell testified he lifted one bundle up, and underneath that bundle was resting the Walker Bullet---in between bundles of paper. That is the evidence we have of how the Walker Bullet was found. 

Unfortunately, the record is thin, and we do not know if Norvell also saw, or did not see, say, a streak atop the bundle upon which the bullet was found, indicating the bullet, by rare happenstance, had penetrated exactly between bundles, and then came to rest. Norvell did not say he saw a streak indicating the bullet came to rest naturally between bundles of paper. A strict reading of Norvell's account sure raises questions if the bullet was planted.. 

Norvell was not a detective and, had joined the DPD five months earlier, and then left the DPD one month after the Walker shooting. 

Side question: You see the picture of CE 573 above. If you found that slug on the side of the road, and then, even informally, related finding the slug to a friend, would you call that slug "steel jacketed'? Would you say, "Oh, I found a steel-jacketed slug alongside the road today." 

If you were a police officer or detective, collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder, would you call CE573 "steel jacketed?" Why? 

The contemporary evidence we do have is that the Walker Bullet was relatively rare steel-jacketed slug. There is no contradictory contemporary evidence. 

To answer your question, the evidence suggests strongly CE573 is not the Walker Bullet. That suggests one switch. 

BTW, are you aware of DPD evidence-gathering during the Wade DA days? 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Mark Ulrik]

39 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

BN--

Thank you for your gracious comment.

There are few more memos to track down, perhaps some additional sources of info, but I think Tom Gram and I have produced the first draft of the definitive article on the Walker Bullet.

It could use some gentle editing, that's for sure. It's hard to disagree with Tom that more could and should have been done to resolve inconsistencies, not least the use of a certain misnomer, but there's also a lot to disagree with and some glaring mistakes.

[Vince Palamara]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU--

The questionable part is "in between" bundles of paper. 

You see the photograph of the bundles in the KandK article. There are bundles of paper, encased in paper packaging, much like if you buy 500 sheets of paper today, and they are encased tightly in a paper package.

Patrolman Norvell testified he lifted one bundle up, and underneath that bundle was resting the Walker Bullet---in between bundles of paper. That is the evidence we have of how the Walker Bullet was found. 

Unfortunately, the record is thin, and we do not know if Norvell also saw, or did not see, say, a streak atop the bundle upon which the bullet was found, indicating the bullet, by rare happenstance, had penetrated exactly between bundles, and then came to rest. Norvell did not say he saw a streak indicating the bullet came to rest naturally between bundles of paper. A strict reading of Norvell's account sure raises questions if the bullet was planted.. 

Norvell was not a detective and, had joined the DPD five months earlier, and then left the DPD one month after the Walker shooting. 

Side question: You see the picture of CE 573 above. If you found that slug on the side of the road, and then, even informally, related finding the slug to a friend, would you call that slug "steel jacketed'? Would you say, "Oh, I found a steel-jacketed slug alongside the road today." 

If you were a police officer or detective, collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder, would you call CE573 "steel jacketed?" Why? 

The contemporary evidence we do have is that the Walker Bullet was relatively rare steel-jacketed slug. There is no contradictory contemporary evidence. 

 

 

Excellent article!

So this may be related:

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Mark Ulrik said:

It could use some gentle editing, that's for sure. It's hard to disagree with Tom that more could and should have been done to resolve inconsistencies, not least the use of a certain misnomer, but there's also a lot to disagree with and some glaring mistakes.

Point out one glaring mistake in the Gram/Cole article, and I will immediately correct it. 

Are you contending that the ID of the true Walker Bullet, by four DPD officers and detectives as "steel jacketed" was a "glaring mistake"?  

Well, to say the least. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

I ask anyone: You see the photograph of CE573 above. 

Would you describe CE573 as "steel jacketed"? 

Why? 

[Mark Ulrik]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Point out one glaring mistake in the Gram/Cole article, and I will immediately correct it. 

Are you contending that the ID of the true Walker Bullet, by four DPD officers and detectives as "steel jacketed" was a "glaring mistake"?  

Well, to say the least.

You very well know that "steel-jacketed" was the misnomer that I referred to. Bedtime now.

[James DiEugenio]

1 hour ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Well, someone got the rifle into the TSBD without raising eyebrows. Besides, in the Walker case, Oswald was careful not to travel with it on the same day he used it, but a few days before and after.

Mark, are you not forgetting something?

That TSBD rifle is not the one Oswald allegedly ordered.

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Excellent article!

So this may be related:

 

Thanks for your gracious reception--you are a top JFKA researcher, and I know you weigh evidence carefully. 

Yes, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, there was speculation about the nature of the bullets used. Indeed, to this day some say the JFK skull x-rays indicate a disintegrating bullet. 

(I have become agnostic regarding the JFK headshots, direction and autopsy. I concentrate on the too-rapid timing of the shots, which to me rules out a lone gunman armed with single-shot bolt action rifle). 

Chief Curry told the AP on Nov. 29, before the FBI had revealed the nature of CE399, that he, Curry, suspected steel-jacketed bullets had been used in the JFKA, and he was seeking to have that confirmed by the FBI. 

The DPD suspected LHO of the Walker shooting almost immediately after the JFKA---indeed Curry was asked by a newsman on Nov. 23 whether LHO a suspect in the Walker shooting. We know from FBI memos that the DPD was pondering sending the Walker Bullet to the FBI even without being asked.

So, Curry suspected LHO, armed with the same steel-jacketed bullets of the type found in the Walker home, had then shot JFK. 

 

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

You guys can argue about what kind of jacket the bullet had until you are blue in the face. It does nothing to explain away or counter the wealth of evidence pointing to Oswald as having been involved in this assassination attempt.