James DiEugenio Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 Paul, this is what I got from my reading. Up until about 1957, Hoover did little about Cosa Nostra. Even after the Kefauver committee did a lot of work on the subject and a lot in public. After the Apalachin bust he realized he could not do that anymore. Especially when Bobby Kennedy raised a ruckus about it. This is when he started his Top Hoodlum Program in major cities and he would assign a special team of what he thought were top agents to each city and each mob member. But Bobby Kennedy did not think this was enough, at least in Chicago. Hoover had five guys on people like Ricca, Humphreys, Accardo and Giancana. RFK assigned 65 new agents to Chicago. That is not a mistype. After this, they decided on the full court press on Giancana. And if you examine the record, this was the beginning of the end of Sam. As per why Hoover largely ignored the problem, I really do not know. Not even Bill Turner understood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Certainly Giancana had motive. And also certainly the Mafia could not have arranged for the complex coverup that followed the assassination. But it seems to me that hiding in plain sight is the real reason this movie is being made, which is to excuse the CIA for hiding its working relationship with LHO for 60 years. This is their fallback position: The CIA will finally admit this, and document it, but will claim that despite their shenanigans with Oswald they had nothing to do with his actions on Nov 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 👌 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ulrik Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Anyone who can read both parts of that article and not see that its about a previous documentary, and that it examines theories put forth by people like Exner and in Double Cross is putting us all on. And if you did not learn anything about Giancana and RFK then you are being deliberately obtuse. Fair enough. I got the idea in my head that you were using the documentary to attack the movie, but if all you did was focus on the documentary, you did a more than adequate job of convincing me that it's not worth watching. A single-paragraph summary would probably have been just as effective. Back in the day, when the Marcello/Trafficante theories were trending, I couldn't even bring myself to buy the Giancana book because it seemed so unconvincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Griffith Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: It is unfortunate I think that with all the attention and analysis that people like Robert F. Kennedy Jr, and Oliver Stone and Jeff Morley have managed to give the missing documents, and the CIA's reluctance to comply with The JFK Act, and good books like that of Jim Douglass, that two stars have signed up for what is essentially a diversion on the Dan Moldea order. In this two parter I analyze the producer's-Nick Celozzi--prior attempt at a documentary on the subject. And I found some real problems with it. And, as noted, he has changed that already for the feature film script, which makes even more problems. Rosselli as a shooter! Nicolleti with Tippit chasing Oswald? Please. But having Rosselli as a shooter and having Nicolleti and Tippit chasing Oswald is no worse and no more implausible than having Lansdale as a key player in the plot, having Lansdale in Dealey Plaza, and having JFK being killed because he was supposedly going to abandon South Vietnam after the election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman T. Field Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 "Up until about 1957, Hoover did little about Cosa Nostra." There are very strong hints that JEH had a long time working relationship with La Cosa Nostra, including placing bets on fixed races thru a straw man flunky. All was well, until the Appalachia meeting broke in the press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 Norman: I am aware of those kinds of things about Hoover. Do you find them credible? What is the sourcing for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cummings Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Norman T. Field said: "Up until about 1957, Hoover did little about Cosa Nostra." There are very strong hints that JEH had a long time working relationship with La Cosa Nostra, including placing bets on fixed races thru a straw man flunky. All was well, until the Appalachia meeting broke in the press. I find this area interesting. The CIA in cohoots with the Mob regarding Castro why wouldn't JEH have relationships that go back before WWII? Just starting to read a bit more about FBI during the war years and how they did intelligence spying mostly in Latin America. I've also read the stories about Hoover and Tolson going to California and betting the ponies at the Mob track. Edited June 2, 2023 by Paul Cummings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 15 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Anyone who can read both parts of that article and not see that its about a previous documentary, and that it examines theories put forth by people like Exner and in Double Cross is putting us all on. And if you did not learn anything about Giancana and RFK then you are being deliberately obtuse. If it's in a movie, then it must be true? Why can't it just be a movie for entertainment's sake? The movies aren't real life. Haven't you seen Oliver Stone's JFK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted June 3, 2023 Author Share Posted June 3, 2023 Yes, I was aware of that whole Del Mar track thing. And I think he and Tolson had his rooms paid for also. But my point is do you think Hoover could be bought that cheaply? I mean into ignoring a huge crime syndicate. Also I think the rooms were paid for by a Texas millionaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 (edited) Hoover was way too cozy with Texas oil. The wealthiest men on Earth at that time. Hoover and his partner didn't stop vacationing at the Clint Murchison/ Sid Richardson owned Del Charro motel in posh La Jolla after 1957 did they? Other Del Charro guests included Richard Nixon and members of the mob. To what extent did Hoover go after the big mob bosses after the Apalachin bust with the exception of the "Top Hoodlum" heavy surveillance of Chicago mob boss Sam "Momo" Giancana operation? I mean how many of the attendees there were brought down or put under more scrutinizing heat because of their participation? Dallas's own boss Joe Civello was there. Didn't seem like it caused him more heat than normal. And Civello probably represented Marcello ( the top Texas, Louisiana, southern state mob chief ) who was a higher ranked boss than him for sure. Only when RFK became AG did Hoover even begin to pretend to do any real mob confronting. Hoover liked the good life. Beautiful home and furnishings, fancy vacations, finest clothing tastes, chauffeured cars and top restaurant/night club drop-ins, even rumored walk on the wild side, cross-dressing parties in New York? And don't forget hot inside tip horse racing track visits. Didn't Hoover and Tolson go to the track "just a day" after JFK was shot? Such lighthearted, public display play activities by one of our highest federal level government officials (considering the unprecedented somber mood of our nation at that time) seemed weirdly and coldly inappropriate and even disrespectful to say the least ... imo anyways. No stick in the mud Mr. Hoover be. Personally I feel JEH was corrupted by the seductive pampering good life which others of wealth kept him bathed in. Edited June 4, 2023 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cummings Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Yes, I was aware of that whole Del Mar track thing. And I think he and Tolson had his rooms paid for also. But my point is do you think Hoover could be bought that cheaply? I mean into ignoring a huge crime syndicate. Also I think the rooms were paid for by a Texas millionaire. I don't believe Hoover could be bought cheaply but these type of "perks" went on elsewhere and for how long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 (edited) Sorry if I missed this along the path, but what characters are Pacino, Travolta and Mortensen playing in Assassination ? There doesn't seem to be a likely Sam Flood* in the bunch. (A couple of Yosemite Sams, maybe.) Info not available on IMDb. _____ *Any thoughts on why Giancana chose that ominously antediluvean cognomen? Edited June 3, 2023 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman T. Field Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 21 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Norman: I am aware of those kinds of things about Hoover. Do you find them credible? What is the sourcing for them? Yes, I find them credible. Through the years I have read multiple accounts from wise guys claiming to have seen pictures of JEH and Clyde in intimate circumstances. One guy claimed that Meyer Lansky had shown him the pictures, another claimed Frank Costello showed him the pics: so apparently there were multiple copies circulating. There is also the matter of JEH and Clyde getting comped for annual vacations at a resort in La Jolla CA that was owned by wise guys. Through the decades I have read dozens of books about La Cosa Nostra, but I don't recall which of them made these claims. I do recall that these claims were repeated in several different books. Hoover considered fighting communism to be the main role for the FBI, crime in general was a secondary concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted June 3, 2023 Share Posted June 3, 2023 8 minutes ago, Norman T. Field said: Yes, I find them credible. Through the years I have read multiple accounts from wise guys claiming to have seen pictures of JEH and Clyde in intimate circumstances. One guy claimed that Meyer Lansky had shown him the pictures, another claimed Frank Costello showed him the pics: so apparently there were multiple copies circulating. There is also the matter of JEH and Clyde getting comped for annual vacations at a resort in La Jolla CA that was owned by wise guys. Through the decades I have read dozens of books about La Cosa Nostra, but I don't recall which of them made these claims. I do recall that these claims were repeated in several different books. Hoover considered fighting communism to be the main role for the FBI, crime in general was a secondary concern. And don't forget that JFK and RFK were going to force Hoover into retirement if JFK was re-elected. Instead, LBJ takes over and immediately grants his best friend ( "like brothers" - LBJ quote to Hoover ) a life-time extension in his position as head of the FBI? If that fact doesn't raise the too close buddy protection suspicion hair on the back of your neck...what would? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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