You're doing it again, Sandy

[Roger Odisio]

You've allowed discussion of the relevance of the peace speech to the KFKA and where we are today. Now you want to move a discussion of Junior's speech today that is likely to use the JFK'S speech to jumpstart the antiwar part of his campaign.  Which will lead to further thinking about the purpose of the original speech.  Which could easily lead more people to start to ask, now why again was JFK  murdered?  I, too, want and end to the continuous wars since he was murdered.  Is there a connection here? 

 

Moving these threads seems to be a solution in search of a problem.  And neither the problem nor the solution has been clearly defined.  There clearly are political discussions that aren't relevant to the JFKA.  But how are these threads irrelevant?

 

May I politely ask you to please stop moving these threads until you can clearly explain why you are doing it, why you think they are irrelevant to the JFKA. 

[Denny Zartman]

These threads are irrelevant because they're exactly the same as the inevitable results thread. once you start inviting off topic discussion of Biden and Ukraine ect. we're getting off topic and then people start viciously attacking each other personally. If you want to talk about politics take it to the political discussion forum. what is wrong with that?  I know what's wrong with that and why you won't do it... it's because you and some others are more interested in performative art than substantiative discussion. if you were truly  interested in substantiative discussion you'd be there in that section discussing politics right now instead of making another annoying useless thread complaining about the moderation here in the JFK assassination discussion forum.

The fact that you guys have to bend over backwards and contort yourself so much to justify these off topic threads is, in my view, evidence that they're off topic.

[Paul Cummings]

4 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

These threads are irrelevant because they're exactly the same as the inevitable results thread. once you start inviting off topic discussion of Biden and Ukraine ect. we're getting off topic and then people start viciously attacking each other personally. If you want to talk about politics take it to the political discussion forum. what is wrong with that?  I know what's wrong with that and why you won't do it... it's because you and some others are more interested in performative art than substantiative discussion. if you were truly  interested in substantiative discussion you'd be there in that section discussing politics right now instead of making another annoying useless thread complaining about the moderation here in the JFK assassination discussion forum.

The fact that you guys have to bend over backwards and contort yourself so much to justify these off topic threads is, in my view, evidence that they're off topic.

Nicely stated and thank you.

[Joe Bauer]

I've stopped posting about current political issues on the forum with a few exceptions such as RFK Jr., however I do miss the discussion.

How do I access that political thread here?

I do believe it is a tough call regards moving RFK Jr. completely out of the main forum because of one issue.

When RFK Jr. keeps proposing his CIA involvement claims, it is intrinsically linked to the general JFKA debate.

I've suggested however, that I think RFK Jr. cannot win the primaries due to his interjection of this highly charged issue into his campaigning.

The traditional powers to be cannot let RFK Jr.'s charges turn into a growing public accepting threat against them.

The JFK, RFK, MLK assassinations are still as taboo as UFO/ET reality subjects to bring into society wide political campaign discussion to any serious government mistrust degree.

Dennis Kucinich's 2004 presidential campaign was instantly destroyed by the first question proposed to him by moderator Tim Russert in the first major televised debate.

Something like...do you still believe in UFO's?

How Russert got away with that Kucinich credibility destroying question has always been a mystery to me.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

They are relevant, just read Katrina Vanden Heuvel's and Jeff Sachs' articles on them.

But what happens is that William then brings up Ukraine and Putin and the whole thing that he is a thug and a madman and a Stalinist despot and everyone should read the Gulag Archipelago etc.

And then that saps the thread of any parallel relevance.

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

These threads are irrelevant because they're exactly the same as the inevitable results thread. once you start inviting off topic discussion of Biden and Ukraine ect. we're getting off topic and then people start viciously attacking each other personally. If you want to talk about politics take it to the political discussion forum. what is wrong with that?  I know what's wrong with that and why you won't do it... it's because you and some others are more interested in performative art than substantiative discussion. if you were truly  interested in substantiative discussion you'd be there in that section discussing politics right now instead of making another annoying useless thread complaining about the moderation here in the JFK assassination discussion forum.

The fact that you guys have to bend over backwards and contort yourself so much to justify these off topic threads is, in my view, evidence that they're off topic.

Where were the vicious, personal attacks in this thread, Denny?  You were just speculating they were coming?

Here is the introduction to Junior's speech tonight from his website: 

"Marking the anniversary of President John F Kennedy's peace speech at American University, Mr. Kennedy will announce a fundamentally new direction for American foreign policy. With his election in 2024, our country’s decades-long journey into military imperialism will be over. We will instead become again the exemplar of peace, freedom, and democracy that once inspired the world."

In other words. after decades of war following, and resulting from, the murders of his uncle and father, Junior wants to take up where they left off trying to stop the war machine. And in the process help to create the kind of society JFK envisioned in his speech.

Instead of asserting all of this is "offtopic" to the JFKA, and charging that a discussion of what Junior is doing and why is some kind of "perfomative art"--whatever you mean by that--want to take another crack as to why this thread is in fact irrelevant to the JFKA?

[James DiEugenio]

Can you imagine a presidential candidate even using the phrase "military imperialism" in regard to us foreign policy?

[Matt Allison]

So he will be coming out against the country that has committed the most recent illegal invasion of a sovereign country?

How he approaches that will determine who will vote for him.

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

You've allowed discussion of the relevance of the peace speech to the KFKA and where we are today. Now you want to move a discussion of Junior's speech today that is likely to use the JFK'S speech to jumpstart the antiwar part of his campaign.  Which will lead to further thinking about the purpose of the original speech.  Which could easily lead more people to start to ask, now why again was JFK  murdered?  I, too, want and end to the continuous wars since he was murdered.  Is there a connection here?

 

Roger,

This is not an RFK Jr. forum.

There are many things that could remind people of JFK, and make them ask themselves why he died. But they are all off-topic for this forum and therefore wont be posted here. There are other forums where they can be posted.

 

23 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Moving these threads seems to be a solution in search of a problem.  And neither the problem nor the solution has been clearly defined.

 

I've explained to you numerous times -- even in a PM -- why these threads can't be here. You apparently refuse to listen to me.

 

23 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

There clearly are political discussions that aren't relevant to the JFKA.

 

If you are saying that there there are other political threads on the JFKA Debate forum, and asking so why can't others you're interested in not be.... my response is, report them and I will move them to to the Political Discussions thread.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

I will note that I'm bending over backward already for those who want to initiate political discussions on the main board. What I'm doing is allowing those topics to remain on the main forum for a couple of days, so that they can gain a following before I move them to the Political Discussions forum. And I always post a pointer on the main form so contributors to the political discussions can easily jump to them.

 

[Michael Griffith]

22 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

But what happens is that William then brings up Ukraine and Putin and the whole thing that he is a thug and a madman and a Stalinist despot and everyone should read the Gulag Archipelago etc.

Uh. . . .  Umm. . . .  Are you implying that Putin is not a thug and a despot? Just in the last year, Putin has murdered thousands of civilians in Ukraine with missile and artillery attacks on civilian areas, including schools, malls, apartment buildings, churches, daycare centers, hospitals, etc. Since 1992, at least 83 journalists have been killed in Russia, while over a dozen have gone "missing."

Yes, Putin is most certainly a Stalinist thug and despot, and a murderer. And, no, Russia is not a "pretty nice place to live."

[Roger Odisio]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Roger,

This is not an RFK Jr. forum.

There are many things that could remind people of JFK, and make them ask themselves why he died. But they are all off-topic for this forum and therefore wont be posted here. There are other forums where they can be posted.

 

 

I've explained to you numerous times -- even in a PM -- why these threads can't be here. You apparently refuse to listen to me.

 

 

If you are saying that there there are other political threads on the JFKA Debate forum, and asking so why can't others you're interested in not be.... my response is, report them and I will move them to to the Political Discussions thread.

 

SL:  This is not an RFK Jr. forum.

 

There are many things that could remind people of JFK, and make them ask themselves why he died. But they are all off-topic for this forum and therefore wont be posted here. There are other forums where they can be posted.

 

RO:  Really bizarre assertion.  Things that cause people to "ask themselves why he (JFK) died" are somehow off topic in the JFKA forum?  Junior's speech last night, and his campaign, is one of those things.  After the speech, it should be obvious, if it wasn't before, that Junior is trying to revive the vision JFK laid out in his peace speech 60 years ago.  He said that several ways. It was the point of the speech.  Have you watched it?  

 

JFK's speech was a direct challenge to the war mongers in his administration and it played a role in his murder.  Nothing can be more relevant to a discussion of the JFKA than what Junior is doing now.   If you disagree, if you think Junior's campaign is irrelevant to a discussion of the JFKA please explain why. You'll have to do better than "this is not an RFK Jr. forum".

 

Name one thing--it can be any kind of thing--that has as much potential to get the public interested in reconsidering the JFKA than what Junior is now doing.  I assume a reexamination of the JFKA  is what most, if not all, of us here want.  Yet you want to ban discussion of him and his campaign in this forum as if it is somehow off topic.

  On 6/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, Roger Odisio said:

Moving these threads seems to be a solution in search of a problem.  And neither the problem nor the solution has been clearly defined.

SL:  I've explained to you numerous times -- even in a PM -- why these threads can't be here. You apparently refuse to listen to me.

 

RO:  I've listened carefully to what you say and I'm left without a justification for the moves.  Early on you made vague allusions to discussions getting out of hand if the threads were left alone. That hasn't happened in the thread in question, or in others recently moved. and you've made no attempt to explain why it should be more likely be to happen to them compared to other threads not moved.  I ask again.  What is the problem you think you are solving by moving these threads?  

 

  On 6/20/2023 at 11:16 AM, Roger Odisio said:

There clearly are political discussions that aren't relevant to the JFKA.

SL:  If you are saying that there there are other political threads on the JFKA Debate forum, and asking so why can't others you're interested in not be.... my response is, report them and I will move them to to the Political Discussions thread.

 

RO: I'm not saying that.  I was responding to your original claim that political discussions (presumably all of them) themselves are not relevant to the JFKA.  I said that the murder of JFKA was fundamentally a political murder, a term that is used and well understood by others.  It changed the result of the '60 election and and by eliminating JFK the murderers gained control of the political system. You haven't responded to that. I say a major motive for the murder was political. Do you disagree?  Do you see nothing political involved?  What allows you to remove threads you deem "political" without defining what you mean by that term to distinguish it from the political nature of the JFKA.  Or even addressing directly what you understand about the political nature of the JFKA?

 

Moving posts to the political forum is a kind of censorship to those who don't have the time or interest to go there. Therefore, the burden is on you to justify such moves. You haven't done so.

 

Please stop moving these threads until you can better explain why it is necessary or even advisable.

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

On 6/20/2023 at 11:08 AM, James DiEugenio said:

They are relevant, just read Katrina Vanden Heuvel's and Jeff Sachs' articles on them.

But what happens is that William then brings up Ukraine and Putin and the whole thing that he is a thug and a madman and a Stalinist despot and everyone should read the Gulag Archipelago etc.

And then that saps the thread of any parallel relevance.

Jim,

      Hold on...  Aren't these multiple JFK Peace Speech threads implicit criticisms of Biden's support for Ukraine following Putin's 2022 invasion?  How, then, is a discussion of Putin irrelevant?

       And aren't they also repeatedly linked by you and Ben Cole to RFK, Jr.'s anti-Biden Presidential campaign-- which has been promoted by the Fox "News" Anti-Biden Propaganda network?

        Meanwhile, you ducked my related question yesterday about why JFK went to Berlin in June of 1963.

[Sandy Larsen]

Just in case anybody read what Roger just wrote to me and came away thinking that there is no justification for my moving contemporary political threads to the the Political Discussions forum....

The admin team knows from experience that contemporary political threads inevitably lead to heated arguments that the admin team has to clean up. Since JFK Assassination Debate is not a forum for contemporary political threads, we decided to move such threads to the Political Discussions forum, or whatever forum is best suited. That is now our policy.

We cannot make exceptions for Roger or anybody else -- even if their threads might end up being anger free -- because that would be unfair to the others whose political threads have been moved elsewhere.

I've told this to Roger several times, but he won't listen.

 

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Just in case anybody read what Roger just wrote to me and came away thinking that there is no justification for my moving contemporary political threads to the the Political Discussions forum....

The admin team knows from experience that contemporary political threads inevitably lead to heated arguments that the admin team has to clean up. Since JFK Assassination Debate is not a forum for contemporary political threads, we decided to move such threads to the Political Discussions forum, or whatever forum is best suited. That is now our policy.

We cannot make exceptions for Roger or anybody else -- even if their threads might end up being anger free -- because that would be unfair to the others whose political threads have been moved elsewhere.

I've told this to Roger several times, but he won't listen.

 

I asked what problem you think you're solving by removing discussions of Junior's campaign from this forum and you simply repeated an earlier assertion:  "The admin team knows from experience that contemporary political threads inevitably lead to heated arguments"  Inevitably?  This is nonsense as a reason and you know it by asserting one paragraph later that you had to move the latest thread "even if it might be anger free". You conclude that you must move that thread because it would otherwise be unfair to those other threads you moved without adequate justification.  A mistake once made must be followed; it can't be corrected.

 

You then assert it is the policy here that this place is not a forum for contemporary political debates.  Of course it isn't. No one is suggesting it is.

 

It's a forum to discuss all things that will help understanding the JFKA.  When in his first major speech Junior cites the JFK peace speech as the centerpiece of his foreign policy should he become president, and explains why, that *automatically* makes what he is doing relevant to the JFKA. The peace speech played a role in JFK's murder. Junior wants to follow up on the ideas in it now, and will face opposition from some of the same forces JFK did.  Another reason to follow what Junior is doing for clues that can lead back to the original murderers.

 

I asked you to name something that has as much potential to get the public interested in reconsidering the JFKA as what Junior is now doing--something that all researches have utterly failed to accomplish in 60 years.   You ignored the question as if its premise  didn't establish JFKA relevance.

 

I said the JFKA was profoundly a political murder and so all relevant discussion of it belongs here, even if, and in some cases because, it touches on elements of politics.  You ignored that point too. 

 

I asked you to explain your remark that "many things that could remind people of JFK, and make them ask themselves why he died" are somehow off topic in the forum.  Again you ignored the question.

 

Instead you reasserted that the problem is I simply won't listen to you.  Apparently what you say, no matter how inadequate, is to be accepted, never questioned.  Can you see the problem with that?