The three tramps mystery

[David Josephs]

7 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

• File No. 104-10385-1002: This file contains a report on the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 22, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.
• File No. 104-10400-1003: This file contains a memorandum from the FBI to the Warren Commission on November 23, 1963. The memorandum discusses the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney.
• File No. 104-10500-1002: This file contains a report on the release of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 24, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.

Hi Keyvan...

I have all the links to all the released docs in a spreadsheet...  the last part of the file #'s have 5 digits, not 4.

My 104-10400-##### starts at 10000 and runs to 10316
I have no listing for 104-10385-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end
I have no listing for 104-10500-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end

Can you please provide the links to the pages for these File #'s.  I do have the arrest reports on the 3 men and I posted Chambers' response to seeing them a number of posts ago but on this page I think.

I just downloaded the excel file with the most recent 2023 releases and it too does not have the file #'s you list.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10385-1002#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10400-1003#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10500-1002#

Am I looking in the wrong place?

[David Josephs]

30 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Is anyone interested in who might have been responsible for the tramps appearance and arrest in Dealey? Would that inquiry move the investigation along beyond the decades-long debate over ballistics and forensics?

Hi Leslie...  these tramps were never arrested... they were just paraded thru DP for some odd reason...  no one had a squad car to take them? when virtually every other person involved was transported in a car.

Do you think any of those 3 men had a role in the assassination?

note: just like manhole cover bullet guy and Mexico's Mystery Man, can we really say we have actually identified them correctly?

So the answer to your 1st Q is yes...  and No to the 2nd.. at this point

[Leslie Sharp]

7 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Leslie...  these tramps were never arrested... they were just paraded thru DP for some odd reason...  no one had a squad car to take them? when virtually every other person involved was transported in a car.

Do you think any of those 3 men had a role in the assassination?

note: just like manhole cover bullet guy and Mexico's Mystery Man, can we really say we have actually identified them correctly?

So the answer to your 1st Q is yes...  and No to the 2nd.. at this point

Thanks, David,

In response to your response to Q1: I agree.  To Q2: I disagree.

 

If the Tramps were mere diversion "for some odd reason",  and paraded by Wise and B. knowing they didn't have a squad car to take them, does that not suggest the episode was orchestrated by "someone" and adding weight to who Wise and B reported to directly?

Steve listed a number of other DPD, and I noted that one might well be familiar with FBI SA Bard Odum ... a prime suspect for hands-on maintenance on the ground of all things suspect in early hours of investigation.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Paul Cummings]

18 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Elaborate? Who might have been in direct command of Twombly?

You asked who might responsible for their appearance and according to Holt he got his instructions from Twombly. 

[Leslie Sharp]

Just now, Paul Cummings said:

You asked who might responsible for their appearance and according to Holt he got his instructions from Twombly. 

Sorry, Paul, I meant to ask can you elaborate on Twombly's backstory and who might have directed him to direct Holt?  An effort to work up the food chain maybe?

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Steve, take note of MIDDLETON.  

Decided to just post the necessary docs to get a flavor of this duality... 2 sets of tramps. 1 photographed in DP and released by Decker, the other never photographed, potentially bogus arrest reports, and claim to be there up to 6 day

 

David,

2 sets of tramps, or were they arrested twice?

From Page 1 of this thread:

From Denis Morissette's site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

“their stories as to where they came from and where they were headed differed from individual to individual.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Question: Sleeping? what time was this? They got out of the Salvation Army and on the way to the freight yards heard that the President had been shot. It couldn’t have been more than an hour lapsed maybe. Different colored uniforms? Driven down to the station?

 

It looks like the Dallas Police emptied out the jail and released anyone connected to the JFK case on the morning of the 26th.

John Elrod, the three tramps, and Daniel Wayne Douglas were all released at 9:00 AM on the morning of November 26th.

The release papers were signed by "Beck". I believe this to be E.R. Beck, a Detective in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

8 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Thanks, David,

In response to your response to Q1: I agree.  To Q2: I disagree.

 

If the Tramps were mere diversion "for some odd reason",  and paraded by Wise and B. knowing they didn't have a squad car to take them, does that not suggest the episode was orchestrated by "someone" and adding weight to who Wise and B reported to directly?

Steve listed a number of other DPD, and I noted that one might well be familiar with FBI SA Bard Odum ... a prime suspect for hands-on maintenance on the ground of all things suspect in early hours of investigation.

I can definitely accept there was something behind that parade...  that it would have any bearing on the ballistics or forensics... I don't see how...  can you help me understand?

[David Josephs]

On 7/15/2023 at 5:36 PM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

2 sets of tramps, or were they arrested twice?

From Page 1 of this thread:

From Denis Morissette's site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

“their stories as to where they came from and where they were headed differed from individual to individual.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Question: Sleeping? what time was this? They got out of the Salvation Army and on the way to the freight yards heard that the President had been shot. It couldn’t have been more than an hour lapsed maybe. Different colored uniforms? Driven down to the station?

 

It looks like the Dallas Police emptied out the jail and released anyone connected to the JFK case on the morning of the 26th.

John Elrod, the three tramps, and Daniel Wayne Douglas were all released at 9:00 AM on the morning of November 26th.

The release papers were signed by "Beck". I believe this to be E.R. Beck, a Detective in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau

Steve Thomas

{my bold emphasis}

I'm sorry Steve... there is no record of the men being paraded thru DP other than the photos.  There are no mug shots or fingerprint cards for these 3 arrested tramps?  @Leslie Sharp "Capt Jones assigned to watch 3 hobos dirty"

I don't see how your posts explains 2 arrests on the 22nd of the same tramps.  Sorry

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[Leslie Sharp]

20 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I can definitely accept there was something behind that parade...  that it would have any bearing on the ballistics or forensics... I don't see how...  can you help me understand?

David, I meant that the forensics and ballistics seem to have overlapped in this thread, and I would hope we could stay focused on the potential implications of who managed the tramps and that episode, specifically.

[Paul Cummings]

20 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Sorry, Paul, I meant to ask can you elaborate on Twombly's backstory and who might have directed him to direct Holt?  An effort to work up the food chain maybe?

Holt says he owned the University Bank of Fullerton which served as a conduit for CIA funds. Twombly also worked as Executive VP for Caribbean Operations of Coca Cola. 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

41 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Keyvan...

I have all the links to all the released docs in a spreadsheet...  the last part of the file #'s have 5 digits, not 4.

My 104-10400-##### starts at 10000 and runs to 10316
I have no listing for 104-10385-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end
I have no listing for 104-10500-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end

Can you please provide the links to the pages for these File #'s.  I do have the arrest reports on the 3 men and I posted Chambers' response to seeing them a number of posts ago but on this page I think.

I just downloaded the excel file with the most recent 2023 releases and it too does not have the file #'s you list.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10385-1002#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10400-1003#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10500-1002#

Am I looking in the wrong place?

I think, but don't quote me on it.  Bard, the AI for google is searching the archive database and is getting the meta data from the entries of the documents that have not been released.  The other explanation is that bard is hallucinating and making up document numbers that do not exist.  Personally, I think that the archive has released the meta data of the documents that have not been released either on purpose or by mistake.

[Leslie Sharp]

19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

{my bold emphasis}

I'm sorry Steve... there is no record of the men being paraded thru DP other than the photos.  There are no mug shots or fingerprint cards for these 3 arrested tramps?  @Leslie Sharp "Capt Jones assigned to watch 3 hobos dirty"

I don't see how your posts explains 2 arrests on the 22nd of the same tramps.  Sorry

 

Jones visibly shaken suggests he played no role other than that required under the circumstances. Process of elimination.

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Jones visibly shaken suggests he played no role other than that required under the circumstances. Process of elimination.

If we can believe Chambers.

10 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

David, I meant that the forensics and ballistics seem to have overlapped in this thread, and I would hope we could stay focused on the potential implications of who managed the tramps and that episode, specifically.

Understood... that's why I said No to #2, I didn't see how one would affect the other.

[Leslie Sharp]

6 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

I think, but don't quote me on it.  Bard, the AI for google is searching the archive database and is getting the meta data from the entries of the documents that have not been released.  The other explanation is that bard is hallucinating and making up document numbers that do not exist.  Personally, I think that the archive has released the meta data of the documents that have not been released either on purpose or by mistake.

Fascinating! Truth Will Out though the heavens may fall.

Or, it's the latest operation — this time AI —  to confuse and kick the can down the road in hopes that there's a smoking gun if only Biden would conform.

[David Josephs]

9 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Bard, the AI for google is searching the archive database and is getting the meta data from the entries of the documents that have not been released.

If they haven't been released and are not in that database... how can there be meta data related to it and where in the database would that be so BARD could have found it?  I know quite a bit about databases but not anywhere near that regarding meta tags and how SEARCH finds them.

Thanks