The three tramps mystery

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Just so we all have it for the record, David- you're saying that the photos I posted of the tramps in their later years are not them, and their arrest records are fake/incorrect/not real.

Go ahead and confirm that for us.

What I am saying is the men in the photos in DP are not the three men on the arrest reports.

What I am saying is there are no records of these "several other individuals removed from the train other than the three...", that the arrest reports are timed in at 4pm when the reports for when they were arrested suggests it was prior to 1pm since while in custody officers hear about the Tippit shooting.

That these three arrest reports were not created on 11/22 - maybe read Chamber's words themselves - right?

It is up to you to prove what you posted, not for me to disprove it.   I also never said they were fake or not real... just that they do not represent the three men paraded thru DP later that day but the 3 men arrested and brought to the DPD before 1:15 that day.

So far you've offered nothing to support your posted images of 6 different men being only 3... what say you?

[Denis Morissette]

59 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Of you can try to understand what I posted - 

No @Matt Allison you cannot get a key and start adding bogus records to the Archives... all you can do is leave a trial of any changes you initiate in the records themselves

bu-bye now

I’m not blaming or trying to ridicule you. 

[David Josephs]

Just now, Denis Morissette said:

I’m not blaming or trying to ridicule you. 

sure sounds like it...

@Matt Allison has not posted much of an argument in support of his photo comparison, doesn't seem to understand there is a difference between a BARD generated answer and a Search API result, cherry-picks the NARA sites explanation of the Search API - thereby completely butchering the intent of his excerpt -  while ever so politely asks me to be less invective.

Do you actually think you or I can go into the database with a write key and ADD FAKE RECORDS?
Does that make sense to you?

So I guess the comment was you laughing at his ignorance since the API reply is right out of the data and had nothing to do with BARD.  You knew that, right?

I bent over backward to apologize for making the wrong assumption BARD was getting info from the documents themselves, it wasn't...  so we are getting away from BARD entirely.

Has nothing to do with Matt posting a BS image of 6 different men and trying to convince us there are only 3 by not offering anything in support save one woman's ID of one of the men...

Next?

 

[Matt Allison]

You want to die on this hill? Be my guest.

If you can't see that the photos are clearly the tramps from Dealey Plaza in older age then you cannot be taken seriously about anything, sorry.

And please don't try to retort with a long post of discordant nonsense where you post some random sentence from a document (which may not even be real) and then claim that the truth lies there instead of the extant written record and facts. It's stale.

 

And please

 

[David Josephs]

21 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

If you can't see that the photos are clearly the tramps from Dealey Plaza in older age then you cannot be taken seriously about anything, sorry.

COINTELPRO - well done 

"If" you don't agree, "then" no one should listen

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
 

Edited July 18, 2023 by David Josephs

[Ron Bulman]

For those who might not read this article because of it's source a paraphrased summary.  It's pretty well documented, two sets of three tramps were arrested in different locations near Dealy Plaza 1-2 hours apart.  Read the article yourself and tear it apart.

The Oswald Code: Tramp Documents

Bowers, 50-100 officers in the railroad yards a few minutes after the assassination, "with shotguns and tommy guns shaking them out of box cars", 3 arrested, to Ball in his WC testimony.

Arrest reports of Gedney, Abrams and Doyle all three say "taken off box car Right After President Kennedy was shot", signed by DPD officer Chambers.

Deputy Sherrif Elkins Affidavit: searched the yard for 10 minutes, went to tower and talked with Bowers about cars driving through.  To the TSBD, mixed with crowd, took several to the Sherrif's Office, went to WFAA TV studio to pick up two witnesses taken there by reporters took them back to the SO.  "A while later a DPD officer came in with three prisoners arrested in the railroad yards." 

Bowers had received the all clear to release trains, shortly there after, radio dispatch, 1:56 PM, DPD Officers Temple and Vaughn info from T&P agent, train stopped on triple overpass, person jumping at 9th boxcar, hiding in it.

In 1968 FBI agent Bardwell Odum (the Caretaker?) investigating the MLK assassination interviewed DPD officer William Bass regarding his being in the tramp pictures, for some reason.  Bass said he, Vaugh and Wise took three men off a box car about a mile down the tracks from the TSBD.  In 1975 Bass told the Rockefeller Commission it was at the Houston street viaduct about a half mile from the TSBD.  To the HSCA he said me, (Marvin) Wise and (Roy) Vaugh ran a quarter mile to the Grain Cars, and marched the prisoners back to Elm, past the TSBD, to the Sheriff's Office.

DPD officer Roy Vaughn to the HSCA.  Ran down the tracks 3-4 blocks to the grain cars near the Union Terminal (Union Station plus now days Reunion Tower, south of Dealy Plaza).  Climbed up a box car, went to the other end and looked down on the open car, with three men in it he cocked his shotgun and ordered them out.

11/22/93, Vaughn, it was after lunch 1-2:00, 2:30 or after.  Me and several other officers were involved in getting people out of an open type car.

1994, Wise, Bowers points 3-400 yards down the track, I saw three men running beside the train,90 minutes after the assassination.  Wise, ultimately left with them after taking them to the Sheriff's office and waiting while they were questioned was then told to take them to Fritz at the DPD, where he was asked to wait while they were questioned then told to take them back to Decker at the SO.  Where he had to explain the ordeal again and finally got loose from responsibility for them, never knowing what happened to them from there.

Wise was asked specifically was it a box car or a gondola?  He said a gondola, filled with grain.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

I don't know if anyone read the actual article or my summary above.  I meant to clarify one thing in the article that I disagree with.  Weberman identifies the three tramps arrested later, down the tracks as Hunt, Sturgis and Christ, based on the word of Gerry Patrick Hemming.

From reading in the Oswald Code and elsewhere I've come to question the veracity of some of his statements.  Weberman went to Florida and buddied up to Hemming for a while, paid him for information.  Some of it seemed like a line of BS or bluster.

Hunt in particular at that point in his career it seems to me had progressed beyond the point of being a shooter or hands on otherwise in the JFKA, after Iran, Guatemala and other operations.  I can't see him running down the tracks, climbing into a grain car to hide.  If he was there, he had cover, in some other capacity.  Frank Fiorini/Sturgis, questionable as well regarding other actions.  Christ I've read little about.  A CIA asset, arrested and imprisoned for a while by Castro (?).

The statements of the officers and the documents do seem to support the arrest of a second set of three tramps roughly a couple of hours after the assassination.

I don't remember seeing a side by side picture comparison of these three men, circa 1963 with the tramps.

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Wise was asked specifically was it a box car or a gondola?  He said a gondola, filled with grain.

2 of the arrest report tramps said it was a coal car.

17 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I don't remember seeing a side by side picture comparison of these three men, circa 1963 with the tramps.

on the Oswald project page I linked to earlier, if you scroll down they do side by side and overlay comparisons of what appears to be contemporary photos.

All that matters to me at this time is that those 3 and the 3 arrested be recognized as 6 different people.

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

All that matters to me at this time is that those 3 and the 3 arrested be recognized as 6 different people.

Except that they aren't three different people and never have been...

[Ron Bulman]

20 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Except that they aren't three different people and never have been...

Read the statements of the DPD officers involved at the time and over time as well as the SO Officer and the documents of this.  They are generally consistent.  A mile, a half mile, 1/4 mile, 3-400 yards down the tracks.  Well after the assassination, after lunch 1:00-2:00, 2:30.

Not "right after President Kennedy was shot", in the railroad yards, as the arrest records say.

[David Josephs]

48 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Except that they aren't three different people and never have been...

. 6 people... aren't SIX different people...  unless you are trying to say the 3 tramps in the photos are not 3 different people and never have been... that would be more in line with your understanding of the case and the quality of your commentary.

Mr. Cohen... stand on whoever's shoulders you like...  1 line declarations that look, smell and taste like an opinion based on whose shoulders you are on at the time, do little more than reveal the character of the person posting it.

btw - you forgot to add, "cause I say so, nahner, nahner, nanher "

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by David Josephs

[Jonathan Cohen]

42 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

. 6 people... aren't SIX different people...  unless you are trying to say the 3 tramps in the photos are not 3 different people and never have been.

The three tramps are Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle, and John Gedney, and we have both their arrest records and their own post-LaFontaine confirmations to prove it.

[Ron Bulman]

20 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

The three tramps are Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle, and John Gedney, and we have both their arrest records and their own post-LaFontaine confirmations to prove it.

The arrest records state immediately after the president was shot.  Look at the shadows in the photos.

[Jonathan Cohen]

18 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

The arrest records state immediately after the president was shot.  Look at the shadows in the photos.

Ron, in my opinion, impossible-to-verify theories about shadows in photos do nothing to invalidate the arrest records and the actual 1992-era statements of two of the three men. 

[Steve Thomas]

To anyone,

How do you account for this?

FBI Interview of William Chambers 3/4/92

Page 2

https://www.geocities.ws/CapitolHill/Senate/5439/Susp_124-10179-10312.html

 

William Chambers: “When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

 

The way I look at it is that mostly the first people to  flood the railway yards were Sheriff's Deputies. They were closest to the action, and the City Policemen who were on the scene were manning the intersections. I can see Sheriff's people picking up the Tramps first, right behind the TSBD.

Dispatch put out a call for all available units to report to Elm and Houston Code 3. A lot of them did respond and assisted in searching the TSBD.

Later, the Tramps were picked up south of Dealey Plaza by Wise and Vaughn and Bass, etc.

You can see Wise standing guard on the west side of the TSBD, just like he said he did, here:

Wise is on the left next to car 59.

https://jfkinvestigators.wordpress.com/2016/02/24/jfk-investigators-identification-project/

 

Steve Thomas

Edited July 19, 2023 by Steve Thomas