Was Tippit at Lancaster and 8TH?

[David Von Pein]

FWIW....

In J.D. Tippit's last radio transmission concerning his location, I definitely can hear a "K" (or hard C) sound being uttered by Tippit, which almost certainly eliminates "Lansing" from the mix. And while the "S" in Lancaster can't be discerned, I think the "er" at the end of "Lancaster" can be heard. Sounds like an "er" to my ears anyway. It's at 5:04 in this video:

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The poster replies:

It’s being rebutted by a “Bill Brown” who’s insisting it’s:-

 

1) been contracted to “Lankster”. 

 

When it hasn’t!  The whole point is that any element of “ster” is absent. 

 

You know what?  All ya gotta do is listen to the tapes for yourself.  The "ster" is most definitely there.

 

[Gerry Down]

I'm hearing "Lankst and 8th". I wonder if "Lankst" was Dallas shorthand for Lancaster.

He might be trying to say "Lankster" but trails off while saying the "er".

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

I'm hearing "Lankst and 8th". I wonder if "Lankst" was Dallas shorthand for Lancaster.

He might be trying to say "Lankster" but trails off while saying the "er".

 

I’m hearing “Lankt” and 8th. I think Bill is hallucinating if he actually hears a “ster” in there somewhere. 

[Mark Ulrik]

45 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I’m hearing “Lankt” and 8th. I think Bill is hallucinating if he actually hears a “ster” in there somewhere. 

I'm not sure I hear the "s" either, but there is something. I'm getting "lanktr'n'8th".

Edited August 16, 2023 by Mark Ulrik

[David Von Pein]

I'm not hearing even a hint of an S. But I'm certainly hearing the K sound, plus the ER.

I've looped the Tippit transmission several times at the link below.

http://box.com / audio file / J.D. Tippit Radio Transmission (Nov. 22, 1963)

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

I don't hear squat other than maybe 8th, it's too jumbled, too quick.

[Ron Bulman]

18 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ok ROn, what do you think this means if TIppit was actually at Lansing then and not Lancaster.

I'm not sure.  The person who emailed you raised an interesting question.  Might Tippit have been observing from Lansing and 8th before taking off?  Could the gambling house, with Olsen there have been a potential destination for Oswald?  A random thought.

Either way I think he went down 8th to Patton, left, then left on 10th.  His car was pointed N.E. per Nightmare.

[Michael Kalin]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Either way I think he went down 8th to Patton, left, then left on 10th.  His car was pointed N.E. per Nightmare.

Not likely. There's an intervening stop at Top Ten Record Shop near the Texas Theater that occurred in the interval between Tippit leaving Gloco and arriving at the scene of his murder. This may be a good time to reread Bill Drenas' excellent article on the subject, "Car 10 Where Are You?" -- even if Tippit detoured from Lancaster to Lansing there was insufficient time to accomplish much of anything en route.

Since there is no solid evidence to prove that Olsen did see Tippit or that Tippit drove past Olsen's location, and given Olsen's testimony the most intelligent conclusion at this time is that Tippit did not stop off to see Harry Olsen. Even though Olsen admitted that he knew Tippit the timeline illustrated here does not give Tippit much time to visit Olsen. I believe Tippit had other pressing matters to attend to.

We now have Tippit "tearing" south on Lancaster from the Gloco gas station at the corner of North Zangs and North Marsalis Ave. The exact route Tippit took to the next sighting has many different possibilities. Because of the lack of witnesses at this point in the timeline we will probably never know Tippit's exact movements.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/car10.htm

Edited August 16, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Ron Bulman]

It is all confusing, and impossible to know much of anything for sure.  I went back and re read a bit in Nightmare.  I'd forgotten about the Top Ten records stop.  Drenas article is very good, it's referenced in Nightmare.  But I have to take it with a grain of salt when in the second paragraph he gives special thanks to Dave Perry for his advice.  Gary Mack was a convert by 97/98 if I'm not mistaken and Sneed's No More Silence is useful but is pretty much a lone nut work.

I still have to wonder about the timing.  Some have proposed the Top Ten encounter may have happened before the 12:54 response to dispatch.  I know Cortinas, the 18 year old employee said, years later, that it wasn't but 10 minutes after Tippit was in the shop that he heard about the shooting on the radio.  Which is impossible.  Though Cortinas account of Tippit leaving the shop is more detailed and differs from his 50 year old boss's account many years later.  The boss said JD took off North/East on Jefferson.  Cortinas is the one who said he crossed Jefferson on Bishop then ran the stop sign at Sunset turning right/N-E on it.  The next street North is 10th.

Then we have James Andrews being stopped by an agitated Tippit heading West on 10th, a few minutes after 1:00.

This is where it gets squirrely for me.  Drenas says Tippit's time of death was 1:10-1:15, acknowledging the WC says 1:15.  This has been discussed in depth and more like 1:06 seems to be more accurate.  If Tippit responded to dispatch at 12:54 from Lancaster or Lansing, that's 12 minutes before he was shot.  I don't think enough time for everything.

To go from the Gloco station at the Houston viaduct a block East to Lancaster then down it reporting in at 12:54 as he gets to 8th.  On down to Jefferson?  Then stopping at Top Ten to use the phone.  North on Bishop across Jefferson to Sunset, right on it.  Then stopping Andrews heading West on 10th 5 blocks East of where he would die a 1:06.  It doesn't make sense to me time wise.  Adding in him going by and asking Olsen if he'd seen Oswald pass by or looking in that area stretches the possibilities even more.

[James DiEugenio]

Nice work Ron. 

We have a problem.

[Karl Kinaski]

The funniest timeline of Tippit's movements in Oak Cliff is in the awful Book WITH MALICE by Dayle Myers, who, like Gary Mack started as a CTer and became a staunch LNter. 

Some excerpts:

Quote

 

12:45:55 Dispatcher  Jackson  orders  Tippit  and  Nelson
into  the  central  Oak  Cliff  area.  Tippit  reports  at
Kiest  and  Bonnieview;  Nelson  at  Marsalis  and
R.L.  Thornton.   

()

12:54:43 Dispatcher Jackson contacts Tippit, who reports
at  Lancaster  and  Eighth  in  central  Oak  Cliff.
Jackson  tells  him  to  “be  at  large  for  any
emergency that comes in.”  

()

12:56:30 Tippit  arrives  at  the  Gloco  gas  station  at  the
south end of the Houston Street Viaduct (...) Witnesses  state
Tippit sat in his car watching traffic coming out of
downtown.

()

1:06:30 Tippit pulls out of the Gloco service station and
heads  south  on  Lancaster  at  a  “high  rate  of
speed.”

 

See? Myers has Tippit driving North on Lancaster! He has him first driving north on Lancaster, and than waiting at the GLOCO gas-station, and leaving the GLOCO at 1:06.30... he not only knows the minute he knows the how many seconds went by  ... 

John Armstrong, despite spoiling his Tippit-piece with his crazy "Two and two Oswalds only theory" has it right, IMO, quote ( from Armstrongs HARVEY and LEE website ... 1998): 

Quote

 

Officer J.D. Tippit, who was observed by 5 witnesses sitting in his patrol car at the GLOCO station (1502 N. Zang Blvd) watching traffic.
The witnesses were photographer Al Volkland, his wife Lou, and three employees of the Gloco station-Tom Mullins, Emmett Hollingshead, and J.B. "Shortly" Lewis, and they all knew Tippit personally.

()

At 12:54 PM, after leaving the Gloco station in a hurry, Tippit reported his position as Lancaster and 8th. He
drove 1/4 mile south to Jefferson Blvd, turned right, and then drove west one mile (2-3 minutes) to the Top
Ten Record Store (where he arrived circa 12:58 PM). Tippit parked his patrol car, hurriedly entered the store,
and asked store clerk Louis Cortinas for permission to make a phone call. Louis Cortinas was a store clerk in
the record shop in 1963 and his boss, the shop's owner, was Dub Stark. 

close quote

 

What do you think? Was Tippit driving south or north on Lancaster, when he radioed that he was at Lancaster and Eight? Was he leaving GLOCO 12.54 PM or 12 minutes later, 13.06 PM? To me Myers is the clown here ... 

KK

 

[Michael Kalin]

6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This is where it gets squirrely for me.  Drenas says Tippit's time of death was 1:10-1:15, acknowledging the WC says 1:15.  This has been discussed in depth and more like 1:06 seems to be more accurate.  If Tippit responded to dispatch at 12:54 from Lancaster or Lansing, that's 12 minutes before he was shot.  I don't think enough time for everything.

Agreed, Drenas got wishy-washy about the time of death, evidently failing to take into account Bowley's arrival at 1:10. McBride's discussion of the Top Ten incident leading to the murder in Into the Nightmare (450-6) is one of the highlights of the book, too rich in details to summarize in a few sentences. The resolution of various sightings & statements is expert, culminating with "It was shortly after the reported record store incident, probably about 1:06, that Tippit apparently pulled over a pedestrian eight blocks from the scene of his telephone call."

An Olsen rendezvous at any point is extremely unlikely, rhotic or otherwise, and there is no evidentiary basis for such an event. It has not even been established that Olsen was present at any of the several locations he fed various interrogators.

A near coincidence is that Tippit, soon after the Lancaster & 8th broadcast (nominally 12:54), passed the 10th Street intersection a few minutes before the person resembling Oswald began his westward traverse of this street.

[James DiEugenio]

More on Lansing vs Lancaster:

 

Hi Jim

There is another “Lansing and 8th” from a different officer on the tape, 10 minutes earlier than Tipitt’s last voice call.

Youtube 27:14 mins:secs 

Car 81 (Patrolman Angell) Time 12:44pm (DPD time) 

“81” 

“81 we’re still Lansing and 8th” 

That is not transcribed in WC705 or WC CE1974.

 

Youtube 37:28 

Car 78 (Patrolman Tippit) Time 12:54pm DPD time 

“78” 

“78” 

“you are in the Oak Cliff area are you not?” “Lansin’ and 8th” 

“you’ll be at large for any emergency that comes in” 

“10-4” 

This is transcribed as “Lancaster and 8th” in WC 705 and WC CE 1974. 

 

As a general comment. The WC transcripts seem to be done to focus on the events in Dealey Plaza and Parkland. There are large chunks of other activity missing completely. So using WC to track officers will have omissions and errors.

 

The “‘still’ Lansing and 8th” for Ptm Angell 81 is also odd as I can find nor hear any prior call from 81 to put him already there. The dispatcher does not query how he can still be at a place he hasn’t previously said he’s at. 

[James DiEugenio]

Correction:

Hi Jim

I’d got time wrong by timing the ends rather than the start. 

I’ll focus it here to the crucial “Lansing and 8th”. Because this now places 2 officers there. Both are missing/obscured from WC transcripts. 

If you can share with John. I’ll deal with Bonnie View/Kiest once we’ve got to the bottom of these two. 

My updates YouTube comments on the University of Virginia are are Bosscat. The time links work particularly well on an iphone as just have to click on the blue time font. 

https://youtu.be/k1-CXd9qdIQ

I’ve also summarized it here. 

 

Car 81 (Patrolman Angell) Time 12:44

Youtube 27:14

“81” “81 we’re still Lansing and 8th” 

That is not transcribed in WC705 or WC CE1974. (It does appear on the JFK website below as Corinth and 8th) 

 

Car 78 (Patrolman Tippit) Time 12:54

Youtube 37:28 

“78” “78” “you are in the Oak Cliff area are you not?” “Lansin’ and 8th” “you’ll be at large for any emergency that comes in” “10-4” 

 

This is transcribed as “Lancaster and 8th” in WC 705 and WC CE 1974

As a general comment. The WC transcripts seem to be done to focus on the events in Dealey Plaza. There are large chunks of other activity missing completely. So using WC to track officers will have ommissions and errors.

The “still Lansing and 8th” for Ptm Angell 81  is interesting as I can find no prior call from 81 previously to put him already there. 

It may have occurred in the famous gap with the “stuck microphone on a motorcycle”.