Was Tippit at Lancaster and 8TH?

[Bill Brown]

15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

It is all confusing, and impossible to know much of anything for sure.  I went back and re read a bit in Nightmare.  I'd forgotten about the Top Ten records stop.  Drenas article is very good, it's referenced in Nightmare.  But I have to take it with a grain of salt when in the second paragraph he gives special thanks to Dave Perry for his advice.  Gary Mack was a convert by 97/98 if I'm not mistaken and Sneed's No More Silence is useful but is pretty much a lone nut work.

I still have to wonder about the timing.  Some have proposed the Top Ten encounter may have happened before the 12:54 response to dispatch.  I know Cortinas, the 18 year old employee said, years later, that it wasn't but 10 minutes after Tippit was in the shop that he heard about the shooting on the radio.  Which is impossible.  Though Cortinas account of Tippit leaving the shop is more detailed and differs from his 50 year old boss's account many years later.  The boss said JD took off North/East on Jefferson.  Cortinas is the one who said he crossed Jefferson on Bishop then ran the stop sign at Sunset turning right/N-E on it.  The next street North is 10th.

Then we have James Andrews being stopped by an agitated Tippit heading West on 10th, a few minutes after 1:00.

This is where it gets squirrely for me.  Drenas says Tippit's time of death was 1:10-1:15, acknowledging the WC says 1:15.  This has been discussed in depth and more like 1:06 seems to be more accurate.  If Tippit responded to dispatch at 12:54 from Lancaster or Lansing, that's 12 minutes before he was shot.  I don't think enough time for everything.

To go from the Gloco station at the Houston viaduct a block East to Lancaster then down it reporting in at 12:54 as he gets to 8th.  On down to Jefferson?  Then stopping at Top Ten to use the phone.  North on Bishop across Jefferson to Sunset, right on it.  Then stopping Andrews heading West on 10th 5 blocks East of where he would die a 1:06.  It doesn't make sense to me time wise.  Adding in him going by and asking Olsen if he'd seen Oswald pass by or looking in that area stretches the possibilities even more.

 

"It is all confusing, and impossible to know much of anything for sure.  I went back and re read a bit in Nightmare.  I'd forgotten about the Top Ten records stop.  Drenas article is very good, it's referenced in Nightmare.  But I have to take it with a grain of salt when in the second paragraph he gives special thanks to Dave Perry for his advice."

 

You critique Dave Perry (a very fine researcher, no doubt) while "forgetting" about the Top Ten scenario.  Hilarious.

Point being, if you're so ignorant on the goings on in Oak Cliff, then who are you to critique anyone, especially someone like Perry?

 

[Bill Brown]

 

Some of you need to read this and learn something...

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/welcome-to-texas-unusual-pronunciation/

 

"And we recently visited Lancaster to find out why it's pronounced "Lang-k's-ter" instead of "LAN-caster," as many people assume."

[Ron Bulman]

54 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

"It is all confusing, and impossible to know much of anything for sure.  I went back and re read a bit in Nightmare.  I'd forgotten about the Top Ten records stop.  Drenas article is very good, it's referenced in Nightmare.  But I have to take it with a grain of salt when in the second paragraph he gives special thanks to Dave Perry for his advice."

 

You critique Dave Perry (a very fine researcher, no doubt) while "forgetting" about the Top Ten scenario.  Hilarious.

Point being, if you're so ignorant on the goings on in Oak Cliff, then who are you to critique anyone, especially someone like Perry?

 

Well Bill, you do know they were hunting two Oswald's even before they got to the Texas Theater don't ya?  Even if they didn't know it.

 

[Tom Gram]

15 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

The funniest timeline of Tippit's movements in Oak Cliff is in the awful Book WITH MALICE by Dayle Myers, who, like Gary Mack started as a CTer and became a staunch LNter. 

Some excerpts:

See? Myers has Tippit driving North on Lancaster! He has him first driving north on Lancaster, and than waiting at the GLOCO gas-station, and leaving the GLOCO at 1:06.30... he not only knows the minute he knows the how many seconds went by  ... 

John Armstrong, despite spoiling his Tippit-piece with his crazy "Two and two Oswalds only theory" has it right, IMO, quote ( from Armstrongs HARVEY and LEE website ... 1998): 

What do you think? Was Tippit driving south or north on Lancaster, when he radioed that he was at Lancaster and Eight? Was he leaving GLOCO 12.54 PM or 12 minutes later, 13.06 PM? To me Myers is the clown here ... 

KK

 

Myers admits in With Malice that his “stop watch and some mathematics” linear regression calculations are only accurate to the minute, but even that is dubious. I suspect that Myers is deliberately and severely misrepresenting the error in his measurements, and he knows it. He tries to get around the error problem by using his alleged “anchors method”, where he tries to correlate time-stamped documents - which he pretends are 100% accurate - with transmissions on the dictabelt. It sure as hell looks like unscientific fantasy. I’d bet that a rigorous error analysis would reflect that Myers’ claim of 1-minute accuracy is off by 100% or more, easily. 

Flip through this thread for some more discussion on Myers’ questionable math. To my knowledge, he has never shared the actual regression + “anchors” calculations he used in With Malice, so no one can actually review his work. 

I admit that a lot of this is speculation on my part, and I’d gladly be proven wrong, but I think it’d be a worthwhile effort for someone to try to replicate Myers’ dictabelt calculations and determine the true margin of error. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Ron Bulman]

On 8/15/2023 at 6:11 PM, Tom Gram said:

I’m hearing “Lankt” and 8th. I think Bill is hallucinating if he actually hears a “ster” in there somewhere. 

Several of us are hearing it differently but only a couple hear Lan caster.  Which is how I pronounce it as a native Texan.  There is also a Lancaster Avenue in Fort Worth and used to be a Dr. Lancaster in Grapevine.  Lancaster Ave. in Oak Cliff starts at 1st St. a block from the Gloco station/Houston St. Viaduct and ends at 8th St.  It picks up again in south Dallas passing the Lancaster-Kiest shopping center and leading to, Lancaster Texas.  Due south of downtown Dallas.  Some natives may slur it to Lnkstr, Lnkster or other but most I've ever heard use the word pronounce it closer to the way I do.  Then again, I've never spent much time in Oak Cliff or South Dallas, never been to Lancaster that I remember.

I've listened to the link in the original post 7-8 times now, and DVP's loop 3-4, and I know this will sound silly, but I hear Linth and 8th.  FWIW.

[Michael Kalin]

11 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I admit that a lot of this is speculation on my part, and I’d gladly be proven wrong, but I think it’d be a worthwhile effort for someone to try to replicate Myers’ dictabelt calculations and determine the true margin of error. 

An arduous task involving estimates of both the amount of clock deviation from standard time and the height of the dispatcher. See CE1974:

1. "each dispatcher has a time stamp clock before him and...these clocks are not synchronized." If they are not synchronized with each other then it is unlikely any is synchronized with a known accurate time source, else why not synchronize all with the source at the same time? Then they would have been synchronized with each other.

2. "the position of the hands on the clock appear different, depending on the angle of sight from which one is looking at clock...a short person would have a different angle of sight than a tall person...this quite probably could explain the time element variation of the shooting of Officer J. D. Tippit with the Channel 1 entry indicating the approximate time as 1:16 P.M. and the Channel 2 entry indicating the approximate time as 1:18 P.M."

Given these conditions it's not obvious how to go about calculating a margin of error with respect to standard time. The requisite data does not exist.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Correction:

Hi Jim

I’d got time wrong by timing the ends rather than the start. 

I’ll focus it here to the crucial “Lansing and 8th”. Because this now places 2 officers there. Both are missing/obscured from WC transcripts. 

If you can share with John. I’ll deal with Bonnie View/Kiest once we’ve got to the bottom of these two. 

My updates YouTube comments on the University of Virginia are are Bosscat. The time links work particularly well on an iphone as just have to click on the blue time font. 

https://youtu.be/k1-CXd9qdIQ

I’ve also summarized it here. 

 

Car 81 (Patrolman Angell) Time 12:44

Youtube 27:14

“81” “81 we’re still Lansing and 8th” 

That is not transcribed in WC705 or WC CE1974. (It does appear on the JFK website below as Corinth and 8th) 

 

Car 78 (Patrolman Tippit) Time 12:54

Youtube 37:28 

“78” “78” “you are in the Oak Cliff area are you not?” “Lansin’ and 8th” “you’ll be at large for any emergency that comes in” “10-4” 

 

This is transcribed as “Lancaster and 8th” in WC 705 and WC CE 1974

As a general comment. The WC transcripts seem to be done to focus on the events in Dealey Plaza. There are large chunks of other activity missing completely. So using WC to track officers will have ommissions and errors.

The “still Lansing and 8th” for Ptm Angell 81  is interesting as I can find no prior call from 81 previously to put him already there. 

It may have occurred in the famous gap with the “stuck microphone on a motorcycle”. 

 

 

 

 

 

Any more information on patrolman Angell, 81?  Maybe a first name, where he normally worked (Oak Cliff?)?

[Bill Brown]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Any more information on patrolman Angell, 81?  Maybe a first name, where he normally worked (Oak Cliff?)?

 

J.L. Angell

https://www.legacy.com/funeral-homes/obituaries/name/jl-angell-obituary?pid=184395600&v=batesville&view=guestbook

https://www.parker-ashworthfuneralhome.com/obituaries/6087733

 

His patrol car (#20) is captured on film in Dealey Plaza after the assassination.

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Bill Brown

[Ron Bulman]

So, from the obituary comments we learn at some point Angell was a detective, Sargent/supervisor/trainer in the S E Inc (?) unit, worked out of the Oak Cliff Sub Station.  

Googling his name I came across this FB page, with a little info on him, but also lots of good pictures of DPD officers, and a few S/O officers, many involved in the parade then investigation of the JFKA (e.g. Westbrook, in uniform).  Angel retired 8/11/81 after 25 years which means he would have started with the DPD in 1956, and, he would have been with them 7 years in 1963.

Dallas Police Department and Sheriff Office staff from 1960 to 1969 - Posts | Facebook

This WC Exhibit in it says he was assigned to the 1st floor of the TSBD until 3:45 on 11/22/63.

Why would he have been at Lansing and 8th at 12:44, 10 minutes before Tippit may have been there?  Waiting to catch him passing by and relay a message off the air?  

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Michael Kalin]

On 8/17/2023 at 3:26 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Car 81 (Patrolman Angell) Time 12:44

Youtube 27:14

“81” “81 we’re still Lansing and 8th” 

That is not transcribed in WC705 or WC CE1974. (It does appear on the JFK website below as Corinth and 8th) 

I can't make out either Lansing or Corinth in the 12:44 Angell message, but at 12:45 he clearly refers to Corinth:

"We're going north on Industrial from Corinth."

This appears in CE1974 and the Kimbrough/Shearer transcript (#387) available at Bill Drenas' website.
http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/dpd01-00.pdf

The Kimbrough/Shearer transcript also contains a preceding message from Angell, #364: "Corinth and Eighth."

It's not likely Angell was at Lansing & Eighth at 12:44.

[Gerry Down]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:59 PM, Larry Hancock said:

The sequence should be in TP,  I think the car stop was after his call at the record store.  Which brings up the obvious question of what would lead him to think Oswald would be in the back seat of a car (suggesting an accomplice at least).  Its interesting that very early on LIFE magazine put in a map which explored the question of whether Oswald might actually have been on the way to Ruby's apartment before being diverted...other than that many people may not realize the proximity of all this in Oak Cliff.

So if LIFE was open to spreading conspiracy theories, does this mean they were not as controlled by the CIA as we are so often led to believe?

[Larry Hancock]

LIFE at its executive level was dominated by the Luce family and if something got their attention they focused the magazine on it - just as Henry and Clare Booth focused the magazine on Castro and a campaign to overthrow him, focusing field reporters on the exile story, and media coverage of the valiant exile raiders. Targeted photo journalism.  That's editorial policy.  However LIFE employed reporters who had their own interests, ethics and agendas.  There is a collection of materials from a secret post assassination conspiracy investigation archived at a small university  (Ky or Tn, I forget which) investigated by first generation JFK researcher Wallace Millam.  It was apparently done without Luce's knowledge and the reporters on it were looking for a conspiracy - seriously. 

The reporters at LIFE did a number of stories in the early days which did highlight issues and the possibility others were involved with Oswald. Some of it got into print, some didn't,

Bottom line, painting LIFE or any other group, agency or institution with a single brush, viewing it as monolithic and attributing a single unified motive is unrealistic in my view.  Did the LIFE organization participate in covering up a conspiracy during the first few weeks...yep,  did it help set up Oswald as a Lone Nut....yep.  But it had staff who were just as skeptical about that as we are (so did the DPD, the FBI - and even the CIA).

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

LIFE at its executive level was dominated by the Luce family and if something got their attention they focused the magazine on it - just as Henry and Clare Booth focused the magazine on Castro and a campaign to overthrow him, focusing field reporters on the exile story, and media coverage of the valiant exile raiders. Targeted photo journalism.  That's editorial policy.  However LIFE employed reporters who had their own interests, ethics and agendas.  There is a collection of materials from a secret post assassination conspiracy investigation archived at a small university  (Ky or Tn, I forget which) investigated by first generation JFK researcher Wallace Millam.  It was apparently done without Luce's knowledge and the reporters on it were looking for a conspiracy - seriously. 

The reporters at LIFE did a number of stories in the early days which did highlight issues and the possibility others were involved with Oswald. Some of it got into print, some didn't,

Bottom line, painting LIFE or any other group, agency or institution with a single brush, viewing it as monolithic and attributing a single unified motive is unrealistic in my view.  Did the LIFE organization participate in covering up a conspiracy during the first few weeks...yep,  did it help set up Oswald as a Lone Nut....yep.  But it had staff who were just as skeptical about that as we are (so did the DPD, the FBI - and even the CIA).

That's what I was thinking. For example take the Nov 1966 edition of life titled "a matter of reasonable doubt". This shows that while the CIA might have some level of sway over the owners of the magazine, they did not have full control as is often believed.

The owners depended on the CIA probably for some of their Castro stories, but that did not mean the CIA then had full control of the magazine. I'd imagine the same is true for newspapers of the era. If the newspapers were controlled by intelligence agencies of the government, then the Pentagon papers would never have been released.

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

LIFE at its executive level was dominated by the Luce family and if something got their attention they focused the magazine on it - just as Henry and Clare Booth focused the magazine on Castro and a campaign to overthrow him, focusing field reporters on the exile story, and media coverage of the valiant exile raiders. Targeted photo journalism.  That's editorial policy.  However LIFE employed reporters who had their own interests, ethics and agendas.  There is a collection of materials from a secret post assassination conspiracy investigation archived at a small university  (Ky or Tn, I forget which) investigated by first generation JFK researcher Wallace Millam.  It was apparently done without Luce's knowledge and the reporters on it were looking for a conspiracy - seriously. 

The reporters at LIFE did a number of stories in the early days which did highlight issues and the possibility others were involved with Oswald. Some of it got into print, some didn't,

Bottom line, painting LIFE or any other group, agency or institution with a single brush, viewing it as monolithic and attributing a single unified motive is unrealistic in my view.  Did the LIFE organization participate in covering up a conspiracy during the first few weeks...yep,  did it help set up Oswald as a Lone Nut....yep.  But it had staff who were just as skeptical about that as we are (so did the DPD, the FBI - and even the CIA).

What a great way to phrase it.  There were skeptics on the inside from Life to the CIA.

Might one speculate, the stories of the skeptics may have often been closer to the truth?

Edited August 20, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Steve Roe]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:02 AM, Bill Brown said:

 

This whole thing is plain silly.

First, Tippit says he's at Lancaster and 8th.  He simply pronounced Lancaster and 8th like "Lankster & 8th".  All Tippit did was shorten Lancaster from three syllables to two.

Second, Lancaster and 8th is only two measly blocks from Lansing and 8th.  Am I to understand that whatever conspiratorial nonsense a moving patrol car could be involved in at Lansing & 8th could not happen just two simple blocks away at Lancaster and 8th?

Did you really think this through?

 

Bill, of course this mega-silly. Growing up and Dallas, I can confirm Lancaster was pronounced phonetically "Lank-ur-ster". That's what my relatives called it, and friends of the family. We were often in the area on the street of Lancaster in the early 1960's in Oak Cliff. Similar to this, Dallas residents often referred to Zang Blvd as "Zang's". 

And as usual, they never think this through.