The Mystery of Kennedy's Brain Deepens

[Adam Johnson]

Getting back to the original article Jim wrote for K&K......has anyone considered a legal search or request of records from the AFIP or its current iteration??? Somebody who worked at Walter Reed in 2011/12 in the AFIP you would think would still be alive and may have info or access to records or be able to offer further corroboration of the original sightings of JFK's brain at Walter Reed hospital post 1969..????

A.J

[Michael Crane]

7 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Michael, the kicker for me is the evidence from Roger Boyajian, (U.S. Marine sergeant in charge of a Marine security detail at Bethesda) in his report submitted November 26 '63 he wrote "At approximately 1835 the casket was received at the morgue entrance and taken inside."  He personally kept a copy of his report & 30 years later submitted same to the ARRB.  Boyajian's report was never submitted to either Warren or HSCA.

Further, other Bethesda personnel witnessed the front arrival of the grey ambulance from Andrews AFB with Jackie & RFK AFTER X-rays of JFK's body had been taken.  Officially the autopsy began c8 o'clock.  So that amounts to around 80 minutes for a pre-autopsy/surgery of the head scenario.

Pete,

I will agree with you on that (80 minutes)

But Jenkins was in the morgue from start until finish,and I have a very very hard time believing that Humes was performing clandestine surgery in front of people.

Sure,Doug Horne says that Reed & Robinson say they saw Humes using a saw,but he did not mention at what time they saw him ( could have been during the 8:00 autopsy) While Reed was an early witness,I seriously don't think that Robinson was an early witness.

And as far as all of the casket entries that night into the actual morgue itself?....Jenkins would have seen any re-introduction of the body.The casket entries IMO were brought in and stored in the morgue cold room & not placed in the autopsy room/table.

JFK's body was only taken out of one casket that night & that is the shipping casket IMHO.

*Keep in mind Pete that 3 sets of X-rays were taken and developed before the autopsy began.Chewing into those 80 minutes.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Pat Speer]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:42 AM, James DiEugenio said:

This is all very relevant I think Joe.

But to my knowledge, the only pics we have that are around today are those allegedly taken by Stringer.  And those depict  a pretty much intact brain with some disruption on the low right side.  And that reportedly weights 1500 grams.

BTW, in that HSCA illustration, I don't even see a bullet track.  I hope I am wrong about that.

That's the point I've been trying to make for what seems like forever. There was no bullet track from the EOP entrance to the presumed exit. There was missing brain along the top of the right cerebrum, and there was massive tears in the lower brain. This is proof--scientific proof---that the bullet creating this wound impacted at the top of the head. But it's worse than that. When I did a deep dive into brain injuries I realized that a number of the articles about impact wounds to the top of the head were written by Fisher and Lindenburg. So it would appear that members of the Clark Panel and Rocky panel were well aware that the evidence pointed to an impact at the top of the head. It seems probable, moreover, that this was one of the reasons why Fisher moved the entrance up towards the top of the head. It just made no sense for a bullet to enter where the autopsy doctors saw an entrance wound and exit where the autopsy doctors saw a large wound which they took to be an exit, (but which Dr. Clark in Dallas thought was a tangential wound). The trajectory made no sense and the brain injuries made no sense. So Fisher had to make a choice...tell Ramsey Clark that Thompson and the CTs were right about there having been two headshots OR conclude the autopsy doctors and participants were wrong about their having seen a bullet entrance low on the back of the head. Being the suck-up that he was he did the latter. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Joe Bauer]

5 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Michael, the kicker for me is the evidence from Roger Boyajian, (U.S. Marine sergeant in charge of a Marine security detail at Bethesda) in his report submitted November 26 '63 he wrote "At approximately 1835 the casket was received at the morgue entrance and taken inside."  He personally kept a copy of his report & 30 years later submitted same to the ARRB.  Boyajian's report was never submitted to either Warren or HSCA.

18:35 pm is military time, which is 6:35 PM standard time...correct?

 

5 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

 

Sure, Doug Horne says that Reed & Robinson say they saw Humes using a saw,

James Jenkins stated in the first interview video with David Mantik that he never witnessed a saw being used on JFK and he was with the body the entire time.

But that he did see a saw mark running longitudinal along the back top of the skull.

Perhaps indicating that someone else made that saw cut before Humes work?

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Crane]

6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

18:35 pm is military time, which is 6:35 PM standard time...correct?

 

James Jenkins stated in the first interview video with David Mantik that he never witnessed a saw being used on JFK and he was with the body the entire time.

But that he did see a saw mark running longitudinal along the back top of the skull.

Perhaps indicating that someone else made that saw cut before Humes work?

 

There are parts of Jenkins story that I have a difficult time accepting.

The saw being one of them and him not seeing a bullet entrance low in the back of the head ( causing cerebellum leakage)

Edited August 30, 2023 by Michael Crane

[James DiEugenio]

I would not buy into the Boyajian Report so readily. I was not a big fan of Harry Livingstone, and I gave his book Kaleidosope a poor review.  But this part was a valuable piece.

V. The Valuable

There is another document which Horne very much played up in his book as being another smoking gun. This one was used to back the idea that Kennedy’s body was not really being transferred to Bethesda Medical Center by Bobby and Jackie Kennedy as millions watched on television as they drove across Washington. That particular casket was empty. The body was actually entered into Bethesda at 6:35 PM, not at the later, official time of seven o’clock. Horne referred to this document more than once throughout the book, and each time it was referenced as backing up David Lifton’s theory of body swiping and wound alteration.[65]

Horne referred to it as the Boyajian report. Roger Boyajian was a Marine Sgt. on duty at Bethesda on the 22^nd. He led a small detail of men that day called the Honor Guard.[66] According to Horne, Boyajian wrote a report the next day that proves that it was his detail that actually brought in Kennedy’s casket at the earlier time of 6:35. Therefore Lifton and his body switching idea are upheld. In my review of Horne’s series, I did not mention Boyajian or his report. This was supposed to be dealt with by Gary Aguilar in another review of Horne’s series. Unfortunately Aguilar was going through a long and complicated divorce process that entailed him having to relocate. So he never got around to writing his review.

Well, Livingstone deals with the issue at length here, and in my opinion he does a good job with it. It would appear that Horne oversold the document and Livingstone uses the opportunity to really pile onto Horne with a lot of invective. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in that regard but let us spell out some of the problems that the document has and that Horne did not elucidate very well.

First, the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”. As Livingstone properly notes, this is a serious fault with Horne’s claim. It is hard to believe that if Boyajian knew he was handling JFK’s casket, would he not write that down and specifically note that fact?

Further, there is a real problem of authentication as this report is not signed by Boyajian and there is no trace in the record as to why he did not sign it. There is a second page to the report that lists the ten men in the detail – none of which signed the document either. What makes it all a bit worse is that when the ARRB questioned Boyajian about whether he recalled picking up Kennedy’s casket, Boyajian couldn’t recall doing so.[68] In fact, he could not recall much at all about that day. And importantly, it does not appear that the report the ARRB had was the original document leading us to question as to whether or not that original was ever filed with the military.[69] All of this seems strange if the casket really was Kennedy’s.

Additionally, Livingstone shows, if one lives in the area, as he did, it is very hard to understand how Horne could buy into this idea without questions. After all, Horne did live in Washington while working for the ARRB. As Livingstone describes it, the route through downtown Washington from Andrews AFB to Bethesda is about 18 miles.[70] But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.

There was no trap door near where the coffin was located on the return trip from Dallas on November 22, 1963. The square grille in the near foreground was directly under the bathroom in the Presidential suite in 1963. The space where a trapdoor was claimed to have been would have been all the way at the rear of the cargo hold in the middle. In addition, according to Boeing diagrams and blueprints, there are any number of control cables and wires running through the floor down the center aisle which would have precluded any kind of trap door being in that area. Boeing's diagrams from 1962 (when the plane was placed into service (in October, 1962)) do not show any trap door in the rear of the plane leading to the rear cargo hold. (Photo Courtesy Jamie Sawa)

As Livingstone explains, Boyajian did not pick up Kennedy’s casket. Bethesda is also a morgue. It did not stop being so just because Kennedy was being transported there that day. Other military men died that day. After all, America was involved in a war. Livingstone interviewed several people who identified another person’s body being delivered to the morgue that day. There was no autopsy done and his body was being stored in the “Cold Room” for burial at Arlington.[72] The weight of the evidence seems to dictate that it was this person’s body that Boyajian’s detail picked up.

There are other good points that Livingstone develops to counter some of the excesses in Horne’s books. For instance, the issue of Roy Kellerman having blood on his shirt aboard Air Force One does not mean that Kellerman was somehow performing surgery on JFK’s body in a secret compartment. Kellerman helped get Kennedy’s body out of the limousine and onto a gurney at Parkland. [73] And concerning the alleged secret compartment, Livingstone supplies some good photos illustrating the work of James Sawa showing that there was “no trap door leading from the rear baggage compartment up to the rear of the aircraft.” This vitiates one of the earlier theories Lifton had about secret surgery on board Air Force One.[74]

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

54 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”.

Yes I agree and did notice that is a doubt when not referring to 'Kennedy's casket'.

Yet back in 2003 at Lancer I first heard Dennis David's account of meeting a black Cadillac hearse, delivered by men in suits, and offloading a lightweight ordinary shipping casket.  David's team working under orders from Secret Service.  Apparently three other witnesses to this were Paul O'Conner, Don Rebentisch & Floyd Riebe.  Add the report from Gawler's Funeral Home dated 23rd November stating "Body removed from metal shipping casket at USNH at Beth."

O'Conner also told of JFK's body taken out of shipping casket in a zippered body bag & John Van Hoeson of Gawler's also told ARRB that Kennedy's body arrived in a "black zippered plastic pouch."

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.

Correct.  Many report a helicopter landing on a Bethesda hospital car park area. I don't know what to make of these claims.  Whatever went on before and during Kennedy's autopsy, testimonies and statements do not add up to the official story.  It all seems like a David Blaine routine.  I've never bought into Lifton's idea that JFK's body was lifted out of the Dallas casket on AF1, but I can understand why he arrived at that theory to explain these later anomalous reports.

[Michael Crane]

O'Connor reported hearing two helicopter landings if my memory serves me well.

Earlier,I stated that the pre autopsy autopsy might have happened on the Bethesda compound,the head brace shown in some of the autopsy pictures is not the correct head brace.A different head rest is what held up Kennedy's head.

The towel under Kennedy's head does say US Naval Hospital Bethesda in the death stare photo,so that is why I think the pre autopsy autopsy might of been performed on the Bethesda compound or at least a mortuary close by & not on board an airplane.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Joe Bauer]

34 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

O'Connor reported hearing two helicopter landings if my memory serves me well.

Earlier,I stated that the pre autopsy autopsy might have happened on the Bethesda compound,the head brace shown in some of the autopsy pictures is not the correct head brace.A different head rest is what held up Kennedy's head.

The towel under Kennedy's head does say US Naval Hospital Bethesda in the death stare photo,so that is why the I think the pre autopsy autopsy might of been performed on the Bethesda compound or at least a mortuary close by & not on board an airplane.

Agree

[Mervyn Hagger]

You guys are so far away from the 'instant act' that you have lost the plot completely.

[Michael Crane]

57 minutes ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

You guys are so far away from the 'instant act' that you have lost the plot completely.

Just curious Mervyn,

Do you believe that any of the wounds were enlarged or bullets taken out of JFK before the official autopsy?

A single bullet to the back of the head caused this much damage?

That dog won't hunt.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I would not buy into the Boyajian Report so readily. I was not a big fan of Harry Livingstone, and I gave his book Kaleidosope a poor review.  But this part was a valuable piece.

V. The Valuable

There is another document which Horne very much played up in his book as being another smoking gun. This one was used to back the idea that Kennedy’s body was not really being transferred to Bethesda Medical Center by Bobby and Jackie Kennedy as millions watched on television as they drove across Washington. That particular casket was empty. The body was actually entered into Bethesda at 6:35 PM, not at the later, official time of seven o’clock. Horne referred to this document more than once throughout the book, and each time it was referenced as backing up David Lifton’s theory of body swiping and wound alteration.[65]

Horne referred to it as the Boyajian report. Roger Boyajian was a Marine Sgt. on duty at Bethesda on the 22^nd. He led a small detail of men that day called the Honor Guard.[66] According to Horne, Boyajian wrote a report the next day that proves that it was his detail that actually brought in Kennedy’s casket at the earlier time of 6:35. Therefore Lifton and his body switching idea are upheld. In my review of Horne’s series, I did not mention Boyajian or his report. This was supposed to be dealt with by Gary Aguilar in another review of Horne’s series. Unfortunately Aguilar was going through a long and complicated divorce process that entailed him having to relocate. So he never got around to writing his review.

Well, Livingstone deals with the issue at length here, and in my opinion he does a good job with it. It would appear that Horne oversold the document and Livingstone uses the opportunity to really pile onto Horne with a lot of invective. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in that regard but let us spell out some of the problems that the document has and that Horne did not elucidate very well.

First, the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”. As Livingstone properly notes, this is a serious fault with Horne’s claim. It is hard to believe that if Boyajian knew he was handling JFK’s casket, would he not write that down and specifically note that fact?

Further, there is a real problem of authentication as this report is not signed by Boyajian and there is no trace in the record as to why he did not sign it. There is a second page to the report that lists the ten men in the detail – none of which signed the document either. What makes it all a bit worse is that when the ARRB questioned Boyajian about whether he recalled picking up Kennedy’s casket, Boyajian couldn’t recall doing so.[68] In fact, he could not recall much at all about that day. And importantly, it does not appear that the report the ARRB had was the original document leading us to question as to whether or not that original was ever filed with the military.[69] All of this seems strange if the casket really was Kennedy’s.

Additionally, Livingstone shows, if one lives in the area, as he did, it is very hard to understand how Horne could buy into this idea without questions. After all, Horne did live in Washington while working for the ARRB. As Livingstone describes it, the route through downtown Washington from Andrews AFB to Bethesda is about 18 miles.[70] But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.

There was no trap door near where the coffin was located on the return trip from Dallas on November 22, 1963. The square grille in the near foreground was directly under the bathroom in the Presidential suite in 1963. The space where a trapdoor was claimed to have been would have been all the way at the rear of the cargo hold in the middle. In addition, according to Boeing diagrams and blueprints, there are any number of control cables and wires running through the floor down the center aisle which would have precluded any kind of trap door being in that area. Boeing's diagrams from 1962 (when the plane was placed into service (in October, 1962)) do not show any trap door in the rear of the plane leading to the rear cargo hold. (Photo Courtesy Jamie Sawa)

As Livingstone explains, Boyajian did not pick up Kennedy’s casket. Bethesda is also a morgue. It did not stop being so just because Kennedy was being transported there that day. Other military men died that day. After all, America was involved in a war. Livingstone interviewed several people who identified another person’s body being delivered to the morgue that day. There was no autopsy done and his body was being stored in the “Cold Room” for burial at Arlington.[72] The weight of the evidence seems to dictate that it was this person’s body that Boyajian’s detail picked up.

There are other good points that Livingstone develops to counter some of the excesses in Horne’s books. For instance, the issue of Roy Kellerman having blood on his shirt aboard Air Force One does not mean that Kellerman was somehow performing surgery on JFK’s body in a secret compartment. Kellerman helped get Kennedy’s body out of the limousine and onto a gurney at Parkland. [73] And concerning the alleged secret compartment, Livingstone supplies some good photos illustrating the work of James Sawa showing that there was “no trap door leading from the rear baggage compartment up to the rear of the aircraft.” This vitiates one of the earlier theories Lifton had about secret surgery on board Air Force One.[74]

 

I disagree vigorously with Jim on this topic. The witness statements are just too compelling and corroborative of each other to dismiss Horne's (Lifton's) theory.

This review by David Mantik, regarding the casket chicanery, is more fair. See especially the table on the last page giving information on the three casket entries.

Plus you gotta see Horne's superlative timeline:

 

The fact that the body arrived in so short of time, to me, merely proves that the body traveled by helicopter. Something which I had already been convinced of by other researcher.

 

[James DiEugenio]

The points Livingstone made are valid, and as I recall Horne did not mention them.

Boyajian did not specify it was Kennedy's casket.

He did not sign his own report?

None of the ten others signed it?

When he was questioned, he could not recall if it was Kennedy's casket?

The ARRB could not figure out if this was the original report or not?

The hearse traversed 18 miles in 20 minutes?  (BTW, Lifton later on dismissed  the helicopter flight.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The points Livingstone made are valid, and as I recall Horne did not mention them.

Boyajian did not specify it was Kennedy's casket.

He did not sign his own report?

None of the ten others signed it?

When he was questioned, he could not recall if it was Kennedy's casket?

The ARRB could not figure out if this was the original report or not?

 

I'd like to hear Horne's side.

Nevertheless, the Horne/Lifton scenario is sufficiently supported by corroborating evidence even without Boyajian. Apparently the "Boyajian Report" just nailed the time of day to a precise number.

 

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

The hearse traversed 18 miles in 20 minutes?  (BTW, Lifton later on dismissed  the helicopter flight.)

 

Based on everything I've read on the topic, I was convinced long ago that the body was flown in by helicopter.

This new (to me) information (18 miles in 20 minutes) just proves that the body went by helicopter.

 

 

[Mervyn Hagger]

12 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Just curious Mervyn,

Do you believe that any of the wounds were enlarged or bullets taken out of JFK before the official autopsy?

A single bullet to the back of the head caused this much damage?

That dog won't hunt.

W