Who were the Secret Service men at the Library?

[Steve Thomas]

In his after-action report to Chief Curry dated December 3, 1963 , Detective Marvin Buhk wrote,

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339939/m1/1/?q=%22Marvin%20Buhk%22

 

Now, maybe Buhk meant to write that the men at the Library were from the Police Department’s Special Service Bureau, but, Marvin Buhk was a Detective in the DPD’s Forgery Bureau, along with John B. Toney. E.L. Cunningham was one of its Lieutenants.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 31 of the pdf file.

 

As a Detective, you would think that he would know the difference between the Special Service Bureau and the Secret Service; especially since E.E. Taylor, who was with him,  was a Detective in that same Special Service Bureau.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 4 of the pdf file

 

In addition, I don’t know who in the Special Service Bureau would have been at the Library sooner than Buhk and Cunningham.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited August 25, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Benjamin Cole]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:21 AM, Steve Thomas said:

In his after-action report to Chief Curry dated December 3, 1963 , Detective Marvin Buhk wrote,

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339939/m1/1/?q=%22Marvin%20Buhk%22

 

Now, maybe Buhk meant to write that the men at the Library were from the Police Department’s Special Service Bureau, but, Marvin Buhk was a Detective in the DPD’s Forgery Bureau, along with John B. Toney. E.L. Cunningham was one of its Lieutenants.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 31 of the pdf file.

 

As a Detective, you would think that he would know the difference between the Special Service Bureau and the Secret Service; especially since E.E. Taylor, who was with him,  was a Detective in that same Special Service Bureau.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 4 of the pdf file

 

In addition, I don’t know who in the Special Service Bureau would have been at the Library sooner than Buhk and Cunningham.

 

Steve Thomas

Very interesting. Would like to know if the Secret Service showed ID at the library. After all, wearing a suit is not enough. At this late date....

As I am sure you know, there are credible accounts of Secret Service men outside the TSBD, and in the Grassy Knoll area. 

None of it explained. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:21 PM, Steve Thomas said:

In his after-action report to Chief Curry dated December 3, 1963 , Detective Marvin Buhk wrote,

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339939/m1/1/?q=%22Marvin%20Buhk%22

 

Now, maybe Buhk meant to write that the men at the Library were from the Police Department’s Special Service Bureau, but, Marvin Buhk was a Detective in the DPD’s Forgery Bureau, along with John B. Toney. E.L. Cunningham was one of its Lieutenants.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 31 of the pdf file.

 

As a Detective, you would think that he would know the difference between the Special Service Bureau and the Secret Service; especially since E.E. Taylor, who was with him,  was a Detective in that same Special Service Bureau.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 4 of the pdf file

 

In addition, I don’t know who in the Special Service Bureau would have been at the Library sooner than Buhk and Cunningham.

 

Steve Thomas

Ha, The SS raiding a Dallas Library, when none were in the area, officially.

[Benjamin Cole]

6 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Ha, The SS raiding a Dallas Library, when none were in the area, officially.

If I recall correctly, in 1963 it was the CIA that printed or produced Secret Service credentials. That practice was changed after 1963. 

[Pete Mellor]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If I recall correctly, in 1963 it was the CIA that printed or produced Secret Service credentials.

Is that so B.C.?  Interesting that on the 23rd & 24th supposed Secret Service man, ( a 'Mr. Smith') was in NPIC in D.C. with the Zapruder film.

[Gerry Down]

11 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If I recall correctly, in 1963 it was the CIA that printed or produced Secret Service credentials. That practice was changed after 1963. 

An interesting point. Hadn't heard that before. Can @Vince Palamara confirm this for us?

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:21 PM, Steve Thomas said:

In his after-action report to Chief Curry dated December 3, 1963 , Detective Marvin Buhk wrote,

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339939/m1/1/?q=%22Marvin%20Buhk%22

 

Now, maybe Buhk meant to write that the men at the Library were from the Police Department’s Special Service Bureau, but, Marvin Buhk was a Detective in the DPD’s Forgery Bureau, along with John B. Toney. E.L. Cunningham was one of its Lieutenants.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 31 of the pdf file.

 

As a Detective, you would think that he would know the difference between the Special Service Bureau and the Secret Service; especially since E.E. Taylor, who was with him,  was a Detective in that same Special Service Bureau.

 

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf page 4 of the pdf file

 

In addition, I don’t know who in the Special Service Bureau would have been at the Library sooner than Buhk and Cunningham.

 

Steve Thomas

In his after-action report, John B. Toney makes no mention of going to the Library
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338554/m1/1/?q=Toney

He said that about 1:50 PM, while "cruising the Oak Cliff area of Dallas", a report came over the radio that a policeman had been shot and that the suspect was hiding in the balcony of a movie theater.

(There's a good hafl an hour of time missing there)

In his after-acti9n report, E.L. Cunningham
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338004/m1/1/?q=Cunningham

wrote that on their way to 1oth and Patton, they heard about the Library, and went there.
"We checked this out and found it to be a false report."

In E.E. Taylor's report, 
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337733/?q=E.E. Taylor

He wrote that after hearing about the Library, "We proceeded to this location, and upon arriving, found it to be false."

Nothing about any Secret Service guys from any of the other three policemen.

None of the four were called to testify before the Warren Commission.

So, where did Buhk's story come from?

How totally odd.

Steve Thomas

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

An interesting point. Hadn't heard that before. Can @Vince Palamara confirm this for us?

Yes, in fact I think Vince is the source of this. 

[Vince Palamara]

11 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

An interesting point. Hadn't heard that before. Can @Vince Palamara confirm this for us?

That is a 1000 percent correct, as I state and reference in my book(s) and as also noted by author Phil Melanson.

[Gerry Down]

3 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

That is a 1000 percent correct, as I state and reference in my book(s) and as also noted by author Phil Melanson.

Thanks 👍

[Michael Kalin]

The library incident seldom receives sufficient attention. It was primarily the focus of Decker's men, who swarmed the location before Walker's announcement diverted the DPD away from the actual murder scene. Much of this is discussed in William Weston's article, Missing Radio Transmissions.

 

On 8/25/2023 at 1:02 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

If I recall correctly, in 1963 it was the CIA that printed or produced Secret Service credentials. That practice was changed after 1963. 

The missing link! Buhk's Secret Service men were CIA Field Officers (see the Stratfor Glossary for this term) operating under SS covers. What did fate have in store for Hamby if not for their intervention? Try to imagine the incredible heaps of additional pretzel logic needed by the WC to "prove" that JFK, Tippit & Hamby were all killed by the same lone gunman.

[Steve Thomas]

Several questions have crossed my mind:

1) Did the "Secret Service" men at the Library present Buhk with any kind of credentials, like the SS man on the knoll did to Office Joe Smith?

2) Marvin Buhk was a Detective in the Forgery Bureau. Surely he would have some skill in spotting forged documents.

3) Was there any connection between the "Secret Service" men at the Library with the IBM men at Johnny Brewers Shoe Store who disappeared from history?

4) Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “Secret Service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/3572-the-balcony-arrest/?page=3

4) A long time ago I read a theory (I think it was from Greg Parker) that the Library incident was an effort to draw attention away from the search of the Abundant Life Temple. Oswald disappeared for about a half an hour between the time of the Tippit shooting at roughly 1:15 and the sighting at the Theater at 1:45.  Where was he?

 

Questions. Questions.

Steve Thomas

Edited August 26, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Michael Kalin]

It all gets wonky with a dispatcher's mysterious "Signal 19, police officer, 510 East Jefferson" that appears on DPD channel 1 radio transcripts (Kimbrough/Shearer #914) immediately after Bowley reports the correct location of the shooting. The corresponding channel 2 broadcast states, "All squads, we have a report that an officer has been involved in a shooting in the 400 E. 10th." [CE 1974, p. 177, last digit of 400 is unclear.]

The 1961 city directory lists "Charlie R Phillips Mtrs used cars" at the 510 East Jefferson address, and 1964's aerial view (CE 1968) shows a used car lot, possibly by then part of Johnnie Reynolds Used Cars. Between it and the library at 542 East Jefferson one building stands, a doctor's office according to the 1961 directory.

The DPD Channel 1 transcript repeats this address several times, and the sheriff's transcript echoes the location, declaring "104-An officer shot here at 510 East Jefferson." This document is sparse. Its communications describe little more than how deputies were sent to a used car lot, while failing to disclose the actual Tippit murder location at any time.

It's not much of a stretch from 510 to 542 East Jefferson. The source of the false information is unknown, which leads to a big question. Why were squads dispatched to the wrong location?

[Michael Kalin]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:49 AM, Steve Thomas said:

4) Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:32PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.”. This is only about an eight-minute window of opportunity. When did these “Secret Service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

Steve, here's a brief sequence of events, using Kimbrough/Shearer transcript reference numbers.

1. LHO leaves McWatters' Marsalis bus downtown, long before it reaches the library.
2. Tippit tears down Lancaster toward the library.
3. Tippit gets killed at 10th & Patton.
4. At 1:26 Hill tells the dispatcher on channel 1, "I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him." (1065)
5. At 1:34 Walker tells the dispatcher on channel 1, "he's in the library at Jefferson -- east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson." (1208)
6. Lt. Cunningham arrives a few minutes later, "surprised to find thirty to forty armed civilians already there."
7. The Marsalis bus arrives about the same time.

6 & 7 are described in the "It's another Battle of the Little Big Horn" section of William Weston's "Missing Radio Transmissions" article, well worth reading.

Evidently Walker was blind to the presence of 30 to 40 armed civilians. Cunningham identified them "as constables and deputies in plain clothes." It's no coincidence that Hill was parked at the sheriff's substation a few blocks away, where he kept an eye on the activities of Decker's men. Much speculation has been made in vain over the identity of Hill's "man in the car." There was no man in his car -- yet -- he was making sure officers knew where to find him in the event that a suspect was apprehended at either location (murder scene or library).

There are more possibilities. Please let me know if you wish to pursue any of this.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Michael Kalin said:

Steve, here's a brief sequence of events, using Kimbrough/Shearer transcript reference numbers.

4. At 1:26 Hill tells the dispatcher on channel 1, "I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him." (1065)
5. At 1:34 Walker tells the dispatcher on channel 1, "he's in the library at Jefferson -- east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson." (1208)
6. Lt. Cunningham arrives a few minutes later, "surprised to find thirty to forty armed civilians already there."

 

Michael,

I'd never heard about the 20-40 armed civilians at the Library. Can you tell me where you found this?

 

I've often wondered about Hill being south of Jefferson at 1:26. He radioed in and said he had someone with him who could "identify the suspect"

I wonder which "suspect" the man was prepared to identify. I say this because in his WC testimony, Hill told the Commission that,

WC testimony of DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill:

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

"We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

 

At that same 1:26 time, the Dispatcher responded to Unit 91 (Patrolman W. D. Mentzel (and) J. W. Courson}

91	What was the description besides the white jacket?
	Dispatcher	White male, thirty, five feet eight, black hair, slender build, white shirt, black trousers. Going west on Jefferson from the 300 block.

So again, I ask, I wonder which "suspect" the man was prepared to identify?

I think an alternate scenario was being worked out that would blame the shooting on on somebody named Harvey Lee Oswald

There have been references on several threads about a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

I think this is in the Weisberg collection.

L.D. Stringfellow was a Detective in the Dallas Police Department's Special Service Bureau of which Revill was a Lieutenant.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

Stringfellow Cable

In this referenced cable, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with light brown hair and blue eyes.

https://ia601309.us.archive.org/22/items/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK/AI%20JFK%2001.pdf’’

 

In her WC testimony on April 8, 1964, Earlene Roberts twice said that when the police came to the rooming house on Beckley, they were looking for somebody named Harvey Lee Oswald.

 

The initial description broadcast over the DPD radio at 12:45 PM was for a suspect 5"10" tall weighing 165 lbs and nobody knows where that description came from.

There's a scenario being worked out here that never came to fruition.

Steve Thomas