Paul Landis Revelation About Assassination Bullet

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Another media article appearing today, following on from the Landis story.  Old news, but more MSM noise.

Several interviews given by nurse Hall in 2013 seem to corroborate Landis' fresh claim. 

'On the cart, halfway between the earlobe and the shoulder, there was a bullet laying almost perpendicular there, but I have not seen a picture of that bullet ever,' she told The Telegraph almost 10 years ago. 

Separately, she told the Sunday Mirror: 'I could see a bullet lodged between his ear and his shoulder. It was pointed at its tip and showed no signs of damage. I remember looking at it – there was no blunting of the bullet or scarring around the shell from where it had been fired.

'I'd had a great deal of experience working with gunshot wounds but I had never seen anything like this before.

'It was about one-and-a-half inches long – nothing like the bullets that were later produced.

Egads.

Did Landis find a pointy-head bullet or not?

OP Wright said the slug found in Parkland was a pointy-head bullet. The nurse says she saw a pointy-head bullet. 

CE399 has a dome-shaped head. 

Also, Landis said he left the bullet at the feet of JFK. The nurse said the bullet was near the head. 

This is like a plate a spaghetti---the leads go everywhere into an opaque mass, and no version of the JFKA seems to hold sauce. 

Which is by deign? 

[David Von Pein]

Fred Litwin, in this article on his website, posted a quote from The Columbus Dispatch newspaper dated November 20, 1988, which confirms something that is also found in this November 1983 newspaper article that I posted online two days ago:

The 1988 paper (seen in the pictures below), like the 1983 Associated Press newspaper article that I previously posted, says that Mr. Landis "picked up" a bullet "fragment" (not a whole bullet) and "handed" that fragment "to somebody".

So we now have two different newspaper accounts in the 1980s, five years apart, of Paul Landis saying to two different reporters that he had picked up only a "fragment" of a bullet, and that he had given that fragment "to somebody" (vs. Landis himself carrying any type of bullet or fragment into the hospital).

Also note that in the 1988 article seen below, the reporter/interviewer has placed quotation marks around these key words:

"I distinctly remember there was a bullet fragment on the seat which I picked up and handed to somebody."

So the reporter in 1988 is representing those words as having been directly spoken by Paul Landis. It's not being represented as merely something coming from the interviewer's memory of what Landis said, because there are quotation marks around that entire sentence.

The fact that we now have access to two different newspaper articles featuring interviews with Paul Landis that include the exact same information, with those articles and interviews being conducted some five years apart, virtually guarantees that Mr. Landis was not "misquoted" in either article concerning those two key "fragment" and "gave it to somebody" issues.

And Landis is, indeed, now saying that he was misquoted in at least one publication concerning those two important elements of his story. But the notion that two different interviewers (one in 1983 and another in 1988) both made the same mistakes and misquoted Landis in the exact same manner when it comes to both of those bullet-related issues does not seem to me to be a very credible or believable argument for Mr. Landis to be making.

Click these two images for a slightly larger view:

----------------------------------

FWIW....

Here's what I think happened....

Paul Landis really did see and pick up a bullet fragment (not a whole bullet) off of the back seat of the Presidential limousine at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963. He then might very well have given that fragment to someone else nearby, with that person never being identified.

And, it would seem, that particular bullet fragment which Mr. Landis handled never came to light as evidence either. But we must keep in mind that a lot of tiny fragments from the fatal head shot that were probably scattered all over the car and in Dealey Plaza were never introduced as official evidence either. After all, more than half of the bullet that struck President Kennedy in the head was never found or recovered at all.

But now, in 2023, for some unknown reason, that bullet fragment (which he gave to someone else at Parkland on 11/22/63) has now been embellished by Mr. Landis and has morphed into a whole bullet (the CE399 "stretcher bullet" or so-called "magic bullet"), with Landis embellishing things further by also now saying he took that whole bullet into the hospital himself and placed it on JFK's stretcher in the emergency room.

So, in my opinion, Mr. Landis' current story probably does contain a layer of truth in it, which is very common among witnesses who have, shall we say, enhanced or added things to their assassination stories over the years (with Jean Hill, Roger Craig, and Buell Wesley Frazier coming to mind as three such examples).

I think Paul Landis probably did see (and perhaps also pick up) a small bullet fragment in the limousine. That's the "layer of truth" that exists in his account. And the two newspaper articles from the 1980s cited above tend to confirm that "layer of truth". But the remainder of Landis' current 2023 story just simply cannot be believed, in my opinion.

My thanks to Fred Litwin for tracking down and providing me with the above screen captures from the 1988 newspaper article.
 

Edited September 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The copper/brass/lead slug is usually called a bullet. But some authors might call the whole round a bullet -- in which case the slug might be called a fragment, even if pristine.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The 2 copper or brass halves of a Carcano slug jacket were the result of the ricochet (offa the overhead signals) of Oswald's shot-1 at about pseudo Z103.

The Landis slug was the magic bullet, ie Oswald's shot-2 at Z218, which might have bounced out of Connally & offa the back of the front seat & then to almost anywhere in the limo.

The Landis slug duznt necessarily change anything re the SBT.

The headshot at Z312 was the last shot of Hickey's autoburst of say 4 or 5 shots of his AR15 at about Z305 to Z312. Young probly saw the remnant slug (it exited JFK's head & cracked the windshield).

Edited September 14, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

The 2 copper or brass halves of a Carcano slug jacket were the result of the ricochet (offa the overhead signals) of Oswald's shot-1 at about pseudo Z103.

The Landis slug was the magic bullet, ie Oswald's shot-2 at Z218, which might have bounced out of Connally & offa the back of the front seat & then to almost anywhere in the limo.

The Landis slug duznt necessarily change anything re the SBT.

The headshot at Z312 was the last shot of Hickey's autoburst of say 4 or 5 shots of his AR15 at about Z305 to Z312. Young probly saw the remnant slug, after it exited JFK's head, after it cracked the windshield.

Wow. Mr. Rynkiewicz's embellishments make Mr. Landis' seem like nothing.

When reading Marjan's latest fantasy above, it's rather difficult to locate even that "layer of truth" I was talking about in my previous post. (But, however, Marjan does seem to endorse the SBT. So I guess that's certainly some "layer of truth". Good job there, Marjan.)

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The SBT has been "proven" a number of times.

We have Lattimer in 1994 -- he could not get any bulging of the jacket nor any lapel eversion unless the Carcano firstly tumbled as it passed throo "JFK" (see my giff on the other forum).

We have the Adelaide tests (2004??) -- the slug bounced off "Connally's thigh" & out of the "limo"-- but in 1963 that there slug must have bounced offa the back of the front seat (& then to anywhere u like).

We have the photographic & laser measurements of the alignment of Oswald's shot from the SN.

Etc etc.

Re the 1983 1988 etc news snippets quoting Landis -- Landis calls it an assassination -- nope, it was an accidental homicide. Hickey should have been charged.

But Landis' sunglasses have me worried -- he infers that Bennett picked them up after McIntire's photo -- but i thort that Bennett inferred that Bennett had picked them up before McIntire's photo -- no sleep tonite.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Joe Bauer]

Did Landis ever have any thoughts on the ugly and twisted inner windshield frame indentation?  A frame made of solid steel?

A bullet sized and deep hole that both limo driver Bill Greer and fellow SS agent passenger Roy Kellerman stated they couldn't remember ever seeing before that day?

Edited September 14, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[David Von Pein]

A lighter moment with Paul Landis. (This is a very funny story.) ....

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Did Landis ever have any thoughts on the ugly and twisted inner windshield frame indentation?  A frame made of solid steel?

A bullet sized and deep hole that both limo driver Bill Greer and fellow SS agent passenger Roy Kellerman stated they couldn't remember ever seeing before that day?

That dent was made by the second-last shot of Hickey's auto-burst -- at about Z309.

The 55 grain hollowpoint slug passed just over the windshield of Queen Mary & just under the rollbar/divider of the JFK-limo.

The initial spray of lead from the initial indent damaged the rear vision mirror.

I think that Greer & Kellerman commented on the indent -- & no other SSA said anything.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Peter Fokes]

On 9/9/2023 at 11:34 PM, David Von Pein said:

Yes, it is a bit confusing. One of the blurbs on Landis' Amazon book page specifically says this:

"Landis learns about the raging conspiracy theories—and realizes where they all go wrong."

He surely isn't totally ignorant of the fact that JFK also had a wound in his throat. Or is he?

~shrug~

 

 

On 9/12/2023 at 10:04 PM, David Von Pein said:

So, what's your point?

 

To say Hello, David.

Good to see you are still fact checking this 60-year old mystery. 

RIP to the many JFK truth seekers who are no longer with us. (McAdams, Hunt & others)
 

You asked “Is he?”

Yes he is. He mentions it. 

Landis writes a book late in life. Good for him. He deserves accolades not the pillory pole. I trust his motives are good. I doubt a man who held a bullet retrieved from the limo on the day of the assassination would ever forget that fact. 
 

Of course, some will doubt, find contradictions and dismiss his account.

But, holding that bullet seems an action one would never forget.

Ciao

 

[David Von Pein]

6 hours ago, Peter Fokes said:

You asked “Is he?”

Yes he [Landis] is [aware of the bullet wound in JFK's throat]. He mentions it. 

Ah, OK. I see what your "point" was now. Sorry, I didn't understand at first what you were referring to.

Hello back, Peter!

Seeing you posting JFK stuff again takes me back to the "aaj" (alt.assassination.jfk) days when everybody's newsgroup posts had to be approved by the moderators before going live. And you were one such moderator as I recall.

I only wish THIS AAJ NEWSGROUP could be revived again. But after Mr. McAdams' death in April 2021, the aaj forum just stopped operating entirely (due to the fact that John, at that point in 2021, was the only moderator for the forum).

Too bad that you, Peter, weren't still part of the moderation force in '21. If you had been, maybe that forum would still be going strong.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

BTW / FWIW....

Here's another 1983 newspaper (pictured below) featuring the same article about Paul Landis that I've already linked to previously, except that in this 11/22/83 paper from Greenfield, Ohio, the author of the article is also shown ("Tim Curran, Associated Press Writer").

Click to enlarge:

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Micah Mileto]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:36 PM, Micah Mileto said:

This is from Robert Groden's report to the HSCA:

 

The Washington Post of December 18, 1963, after checking the 
report with the FBI before publication, stated that a bullet was recov- 
ered from deep within the President’s shoulder. This was again con- 
firmed in the Post on May 29, 1966. 

The fact of the recovery of this bullet fully destroys the myth of the 
“single bullet,” and that evidence of an additional gunshot during the 
assassination was suppressed.

 

Does anybody have this Washington Post article from May 29, 1966?

 

edit: https://web.archive.org/web/20230920203346/http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/W Disk/Whitewash I Press/Item 01.pdf

Think I found it https://web.archive.org/web/20230920203346/http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/W Disk/Whitewash I Press/Item 01.pdf

[Micah Mileto]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:36 PM, Micah Mileto said:

 

Does anybody have this Washington Post article from May 29, 1966?

From the Washington Post, 12/18/1963, Kennedy Autopsy Report by Nate Haseltine (Link):

 

PRESIDENT KENNEDY was shot twice, both times from the rear, and could readily have survived the first bullet which was found deep in his shoulder.

 

The second bullet to hit the President, however, tore off the right rear portion of his head so destructively as to be “completely incompatible with life.” A fragment was deflected and passed out the front of the throat, creating an erroneous belief he may have been shot from two angles.

 

These are the findings of the as yet unofficial report of pathologists who performed the autopsy on the President's body the night of Nov. 22.

 

The findings clear up confusions over whether the President was shot once or twice, and particularly whether one shot hit him in the neck from the front.

 

Now it is known that both shots came from the back, the first hitting him high in the back shoulder. It caused a hematoma, a pooling of blood, inside the neck and shoulder muscles, but no critical harm.

 

[...]

 

The disclosure that a bullet hit the President in the back shoulder, 5 to 7 inches below the collar line, came as a complete surprise to doctors at the Dallas hospital The President, they said, was on his back from the moment he was brought into the hospital until the body was covered with a sheet after he was pronounced dead.

 

Dr. James Carrico, the hospital’s resident in surgery and first to examine the President, confirmed the fact that the shoulder wound was not observed.

 

[...]

 

The Dallas doctors admittedly were in disagreement. Some believed the President had been shot twice, the neck wound being from a glancing hit; one of the surgeons explained over television that he was shot once once, and that a fragment from the bullet that hit his head coursed downward and emerged through the front of the throat.

 

The so-small and clean wound in the front of the throat led to open speculation that the President may have been shot from two sides, which the autopsy showed to be false.

 

From the Washington Post, 5/29/1966, An Inquest: Skeptical Postscript to Warren Group's Report on Assassination by Richard Harwood (Link):

 

The reasons for the Commission’s uncertainty on this vital point are well documented: [...]

 

(5) On Dec. 18, 1963, The Washington Post an other newspapers reported on the basis of rumors from Dallas, that the first bullet to strike the President “was found deep in his shoulder.” This report was confirmed prior to publication by the FBI.

 

[...]

 

Deadline Extended

 

[...]

 

[...] Some of the contradictions are relatively simple to resolve, however.

 

The first one involves the credibility of the FBI report of Dec. 9, which states that the bullet which struck Mr. Kennedy’s shoulder did not leave his body.

 

This report, the FBI said last week,was based on the medical evidence at the time. But there is other evidence that it was based on nothing more than hearsay.

 

The autopsy on the President began at Bethesda Naval Hospital at about 8 p.m. on the night on Nov. 22.

 

Wound Confused Doctors.

 

Two FBI agents who were present overheard Dr. Humes, Dr. Finck and Dr. J. T. Boswell speculate about the President’s shoulder wound. The doctors were confused by it because an incision made in the front of the President’s throat in Dallas obscured the exit wound.

 

Before the three doctors at Bethesda had completed the autopsy and before they had traced the path of the bullet from the President’s shoulder to his throat, the FBI observers left the room and called in a report that the bullet had not passed through the President’s body.

 

Incredibly, this verbal report became the basis of the erroneous statement that appears in the Dec. 9, five volume summary submitted to the Warren Commission.

 

The official autopsy report which contradicts the FBI was in the hands of the Secret Service, not the Bureau, and may have never been supplied to the FBI.

[David Von Pein]

A Landis Summary.....

As of the time I'm writing this post on September 26, 2023, I think there are five versions of Paul Landis' "bullet" story, with versions 2 and 3 being virtually identical. I'll outline those versions and variations below:


Version #1: November 1963. In this earliest version, via two separate Secret Service reports (one of which is extremely long and detailed), Landis doesn't say a word about seeing or finding any type of "bullet" or "bullet fragment":

PAUL LANDIS' REPORTS (11/27/63 & 11/30/63)


Version #2: November 1983. In this version, which appeared in at least two Ohio newspapers, Landis tells Associated Press writer Tim Curran that "there was a bullet fragment on the top of the back seat" which Landis said he "picked up and gave to somebody":

THE COSHOCTON (OHIO) TRIBUNE (NOV. 20, 1983)

GREENFIELD (OHIO) DAILY TIMES (NOV. 22, 1983)


Version #3: November 1988. This version is nearly identical to Version 2, with the only difference being that Mr. Landis, in 1988, doesn't specifically say he found the fragment "on top" of the back seat. In his 1988 interview, he merely says he found a fragment "on the seat".

But another key difference in this 1988 article is the fact that the reporter/writer has placed quotation marks around the key words being spoken by Mr. Landis, indicating that these words (shown below) are not just a mere paraphrasing on the part of the author of the article, but instead represent a direct and verbatim quote coming from the mouth of Paul E. Landis Jr.:

"I distinctly remember there was a bullet fragment on the seat which I picked up and handed to somebody."

THE COLUMBUS (OHIO) DISPATCH (NOV. 20, 1988)


Version #4: 2010 (in the book "The Kennedy Detail"). In this version, like the 1983 and 1988 newspaper accounts, Landis says he saw a bullet "fragment" in the back portion of JFK's limousine. But in this 2010 version, unlike the earlier articles from the 1980s, Mr. Landis doesn't say anything about giving the fragment to another person. Instead, he says he placed the fragment "on the seat".

Here's the complete excerpt concerning Landis and the "bullet fragment" as it appears on Page 225 of the 2010 book "The Kennedy Detail" (with thanks going to Vincent Palamara for providing the screen capture linked below):

"When Agent Paul Landis helped Mrs. Kennedy out of the car he saw a bullet fragment in the back where the top would be secured. He picked it up and put it on the seat, thinking that if the car were moved, it might be blown off."

PAGE 225 OF "THE KENNEDY DETAIL" (2010)


Version #5: Landis' current version, which first surfaced publicly in September 2023, which has Landis now saying he saw and picked up a whole bullet off of the top portion of the back seat of the Presidential limousine on 11/22/63, with Mr. Landis, unlike all previous statements he has ever made concerning the discovery of any type of "bullet" material, now claiming to have put that whole bullet in his pocket and then carrying it himself into Parkland Hospital where he then placed the whole bullet at the foot of the stretcher being occupied by John F. Kennedy in Trauma Room #1.

INTERVIEW WITH PAUL LANDIS (SEPT. 12, 2023)

-------------------------------

DVP's JFK Archives / Discussion About Paul Landis

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by David Von Pein