Did the Plotters View RFK's Murder of Marilyn Monroe as Justification for Killing JFK?

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And any auther who relies on Otash is simply not credible.

James Ellroy is a great auther.

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/13/1199058023/book-review-james-ellroy-the-enchanters-sees-return-of-freddy-otash

[Michael Griffith]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Will you stop it Mike. I don't think you realize just how bad posts like the above make you look.

And I don't think you realize how bad your dismissive polemic makes you look. You're attacking and rejecting a book that you haven't even read, and your primary source for rejecting Rothmiller is a love-struck Marilyn Monroe fan who can't even admit that she was promiscuous or that she had affairs with RFK and JFK.

Fred Otash, of all people. And any auther who relies on Otash is simply not credible.

Says the guy who relies on the anti-Semitic crackpot Fletcher Prouty. What about all the documents in the 11 boxes from Otash's storage unit? What about the parts of Otash's story that Thompson was able to verify? Oh, that's right: you don't know about any of this because you haven't read the book.

I won't even comment on Prouty, Jeff Carter is on fine footing there. This is just more of your frothing about like a wild geyser at Yosemite.

Jeff Carter didn't even discern from the video that Prouty clearly claimed that Chiang Kai-shek was at the Tehran Conference, when we know for a fact that he was not. You might want to go read my last two replies in that thread. 

I think Mike is being deliberately obtuse on this one since no one would buy his Vietnam baloney.

I think any objective person who reads our exchanges on Vietnam will see (1) that your research on Vietnam has been limited and one-sided; (2) that you cited many fringe, amateurish sources, sources that even liberal scholars have repudiated (e.g., Turse); (3) that you made several inexcusably erroneous claims about the war, (4) that you are not qualified to talk about the war; and (5) that you had no answer for the evidence I presented.

Mike, if you have nothing to say or contribute, just don't say anything.  Because your net contribution to this forum is really quite negative. 

On the contrary, you are the one who spews personal attacks and dismissive diatribes against anyone who doesn't go along with your version of JFK and the assassination. Just yesterday you created a thread dedicated solely to throwing personal insults and strident attacks against Mark Shaw, a decent and sincere researcher who has developed significant new evidence in the JFK case, and who has reached many more people with the basic case for conspiracy than your books have reached.  

All over the fact that you cannot accept that in 1991, John Newman and Oliver Stone and Fletcher Prouty were correct on JFK getting out of Vietnam.

We both know that even the vast majority of liberal scholars reject the Stone-Prouty-Newman fiction about JFK getting out of Vietnam. You have gone so far out to the fringe on this issue that you even find it necessary to attack liberal scholars who are just as anti-war as you are. 

Indeed, you've even claimed that ultra-liberal activist and investigative journalist Chip Berlet is not really a liberal. Oh, Berlet most definitely is a liberal, an ultra-liberal, who has done valuable work in exposing white supremacists, neo-fascists, and anti-Semites, and who has worked for a long list of liberal groups, including the ACLU. But you have gone so far to the extreme left of the spectrum that even Berlet does not qualify as a liberal in your eyes, partly because Berlet has documented Prouty's anti-Semitic activities and statements.

I suspect that one of the reasons you have launched such a frenzied attack on a good guy like Mike Rothmiller, without even bothering to read his book, is that his transcription of Marilyn's diary includes an entry that shows that JFK was determined to win the Vietnam War. 

And, by the way, Marilyn's friends and associates verified that she was a diligent diary keeper, that she often kept her diary handy and that she made frequent entries. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Tom Gram]

4 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I suspect that one of the reasons you have launched such a frenzied attack on a good guy like Mike Rothmiller, without even bothering to read his book, is that his transcription of Marilyn's diary includes an entry that shows that JFK was determined to win the Vietnam War. 

And, by the way, Marilyn's friends and associates verified that she was a diligent diary keeper, that she often kept her diary handy and that she made frequent entries. 

You’ve got to be kidding. McGovern proved, beyond any shadow of a doubt, with primary source documents, that Bob Slatzer’s book was a complete fiction designed solely to make money on the heels of Mailer’s complete fiction. Slatzer didn’t even write it. It was literally fiction by committee. 

The existence of MM’s so-called “little red diary” was never mentioned, by anyone, until Slatzer’s book in 1974. Slatzer and his team invented it. The diary didn’t exist. 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/marilyns-diary/

The irony in all the preceding is this: while Bombshellinvokes the Rashomon Effect in order to dismiss Robert Slatzer as an unreliable eyewitness, even though he eye witnessed nothing, Rotson accepts the stage prop that Slatzer created, quite possibly with help from Frank Capell, Marilyn’s infamous Little Red Diary; and that acceptance is as rich as a French Silk pie.

Not one piece of credible or verifiable evidence has been presented during the past forty-five plus years which proves that Marilyn’s Red Book of Secrets ever existed; and there is absolutely no credible or verifiable evidence presented in Bombshell which proves that Michael Rothmiller actually saw and even read a diary, much less the diary which the movie star herself disavowed. She ac­knowl­edged that she occasionally wrote about the events of her life. Thus, Marilyn’s journals, the ones accidentally discovered by Lee Strasberg’s widow prove conclusively what Marilyn wrote about and how she actually wrote. The red diary as inconsistently and absurdly described by Robert Slatzer, Jeanne Carmen, Samir Muqaddin, Ted Jordan, and now Michael Roth­miller, never existed

[James DiEugenio]

And if you want to read something that is at once appalling and absurdly funny, in a Kafkaesque manner, Jordan's search for the diary is simply priceless.

BTW, do you know how proprietary these clowns got? One of them, Bozo Slatzer (without his make up) sued the other--Jordan.

LOL, ROTF.  

As Tom notes, there was no so called little red diary.  That was a fraud made up by the con man Slatzer. And adapted later by other hacks.  

What MM kept was something like  a journal notebook.  Which was not discovered until later while going through her possessions that were willed to Strasberg.    That Rothmiller uses this ploy in spite of that tells you what you need to know about his book.

Edited September 28, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Griffith]

34 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

You’ve got to be kidding. McGovern proved, beyond any shadow of a doubt, with primary source documents, that Bob Slatzer’s book was a complete fiction designed solely to make money on the heels of Mailer’s complete fiction. Slatzer didn’t even write it. It was literally fiction by committee. 

The existence of MM’s so-called “little red diary” was never mentioned, by anyone, until Slatzer’s book in 1974. Slatzer and his team invented it. The diary didn’t exist. 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/marilyns-diary/

The irony in all the preceding is this: while Bombshellinvokes the Rashomon Effect in order to dismiss Robert Slatzer as an unreliable eyewitness, even though he eye witnessed nothing, Rotson accepts the stage prop that Slatzer created, quite possibly with help from Frank Capell, Marilyn’s infamous Little Red Diary; and that acceptance is as rich as a French Silk pie.

Not one piece of credible or verifiable evidence has been presented during the past forty-five plus years which proves that Marilyn’s Red Book of Secrets ever existed; and there is absolutely no credible or verifiable evidence presented in Bombshell which proves that Michael Rothmiller actually saw and even read a diary, much less the diary which the movie star herself disavowed. She ac­knowl­edged that she occasionally wrote about the events of her life. Thus, Marilyn’s journals, the ones accidentally discovered by Lee Strasberg’s widow prove conclusively what Marilyn wrote about and how she actually wrote. The red diary as inconsistently and absurdly described by Robert Slatzer, Jeanne Carmen, Samir Muqaddin, Ted Jordan, and now Michael Roth­miller, never existed

You haven't read Bombshell either, have you?

By time the Strasbergs came along, most of Marilyn's diaries were long gone. The diaries that the widow found have nothing to do with the diary compilation that Rothmiller examined and transcribed from. 

[James DiEugenio]

That is so ridiculous.

Do you mean Slatzer's or Jeanne Carmen's or Ted Jordan's?

Take your pick since they are all different.😀

[Michael Griffith]

It really boils down to this: Those who say that there was no Marilyn Monroe diary that revealed her affairs with RFK and JFK are saying that Mike Rothmiller is lying, that he fabricated the pages that he says he transcribed from the copy of Marilyn's diary that he says he saw in the OCID files. 

I don't buy that for a minute. In watching Rothmiller's interviews, I get the sense that he is an honest, genuine person who is accurately reporting on what he saw and heard. I encourage anyone who has not watched his interviews to go watch them. I put links to two of them in my OP for this thread. I also suggest you watch the interview with co-author Douglas Thompson. 

Rothmiller has a sterling record as a whistleblower against corruption and cover-up. His testimony before the LA Police Commission led to major efforts to clean up the LAPD. He has also revealed that one of the OCID files he saw said that 10 bullets were recovered from the RFK shooting, which is two more bullets than Sirhan could have fired. He has further revealed that the CIA had agents and assets in the LAPD.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[James DiEugenio]

Do you know how many of these diaries there were Mike?

I only listed three.  Slatzer, Carmen and Jordan.  But I did say they were different and anyone can see that by reading their books. Which you apparently have not.

But now we have two more, Grandison's and Rothmiller's.  That makes five. And those two are different.   Grandison's version was really  a little nutty.  In his version MM was approached by Bob Maheu and James McConnell.  And somehow she knew that Hunt was nicknamed Eduardo.  🙂

Anyone who believes that does not merit being talked to.  Now Rothmiller says JFK was going to stay in Vietnam, as If Kennedy said this to her.

Mike, if you cannot see what has occurred here, then you are not as smart as I thought you were or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Clearly, in their hopes of making money, these fruitcakes and clowns in the MM field stole quite liberally from the JFK literature. And it did not matter if it made sense or checked out factually.  

I would have hoped that would not have been the case with you.  Apparently I was wrong.

Edited September 30, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:25 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Do you know how many of these diaries there were Mike?

I only listed three.  Slatzer, Carmen and Jordan.  But I did say they were different and anyone can see that by reading their books. Which you apparently have not.

But now we have two more, Grandison's and Rothmiller's.  That makes five. And those two are different.   Grandison's version was really  a little nutty.  In his version MM was approached by Bob Maheu and James McConnell.  And somehow she knew that Hunt was nicknamed Eduardo.  🙂

Anyone who believes that does not merit being talked to.  Now Rothmiller says JFK was going to stay in Vietnam, as If Kennedy said this to her.

Mike, if you cannot see what has occurred here, then you are not as smart as I thought you were or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Clearly, in their hopes of making money, these fruitcakes and clowns in the MM field stole quite liberally from the JFK literature. And it did not matter if it made sense or checked out factually.  

I would have hoped that would not have been the case with you.  Apparently I was wrong.

It is a quite a sad reach to compare the Slatzer/Carmen/Jordan diary claims with Rothmiller's transcriptions from the diary compilation that he saw in OCID files. You are falsely comparing apples to rotten grapes. And Rothmiller is nothing like Slatzer, Carmen, or Jordan.

Rothmiller's diary transcriptions do make sense, and Thompson, a respected international journalist, was able to verify a number of aspects of Rothmiller's story. You'd know this if you would break down and read the book, instead of relying on a love-struck Marilyn Monroe fan who can't even admit well-known negative facts about Marilyn and the Kennedys.

You would be championing Rothmiller as a credible, solid source if his disclosures did not include information about JFK and RFK that you cannot tolerate. It is as simple as that.

Your version of the JFK assassination is driven by your near worship of JFK and RFK and by your far-left ideology. Thus, even though Rothmiller is one of the genuine good guys, even though he has a sterling record as a whistleblower against police and CIA wrongdoing, and even though he is with us on the JFK and RFK assassinations, you feel compelled to reject his story and to viciously attack him because his story refutes your version of the Kennedys and of the JFK case.

And, mind you, there is nothing inherently wrong with being far left/ultra-liberal. Bernie Sanders is ultra-liberal, but I respect him as a principled and sincere politician, and I actually agree with him on a few issues. But when you let your ideology overrule your objectivity, as I think you do, that's when there's a problem.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Ron Bulman]

Marilyn's suicide had nothing to do with the JFKA.

[Michael Griffith]

Rothmiller's disclosures shed important new light on the JFK assassination. Since OCID knew about RFK's role in Marilyn's death, the CIA knew about it as well, because the CIA had agents in OCID. If J. Edgar Hoover was aware of the information from the audio surveillance of Marilyn and Peter Lawford's houses, he knew about RFK's guilt as well. Hoover and the CIA surely would have taken note of the phone calls that Bobby placed to JFK the day before and the day of Marilyn's death, which suggested that JFK may well have had some knowledge about how and why Marilyn was killed and may have approved of Bobby's action.

This knowledge would have made the plotters feel strongly justified in deciding to eliminate JFK, and in deciding to kill Bobby five years later. In their minds, the killing of Marilyn Monroe made Bobby a murderer or an accomplice to murder, and made JFK an accomplice or an accessory after the fact. Indeed, Marilyn's death may have been the last straw for some of the plotters and may have convinced them that killing JFK would be morally justified. 

[James DiEugenio]

RFK had no role in MM's death.  Proved by Don McGovern and Susan Bernard.

There was no FBI taping or by Hoffa. Proved by Gary Vitacco Robles and the New York authorities who arrested Spindel.

Therefore, the above is flapdoodle.  

Rothmiller was trying to sell a silly book.  

Mike is starting to sound as goofy as Mark Shaw.

Edited October 4, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Cory Santos]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

RFK had no role in MM's death.  Proved by Don McGovern and Susan Bernard.

There was no FBI taping or by Hoffa. Proved by Gary Vitacco Robles and the New York authorities who arrested Spindel.

Therefore, the above is flapdoodle.  

Rothmiller was trying to sell a silly book.  

Mike is starting to sound as goofy as Mark Shaw.

Assuming I agree with you that RFK had no role in MM’s death, do you agree that does not preclude others (not related to the Kennedy’s) from having killed her?

[Pamela Brown]

On 10/4/2023 at 12:27 PM, James DiEugenio said:

RFK had no role in MM's death.  Proved by Don McGovern and Susan Bernard.

There was no FBI taping or by Hoffa. Proved by Gary Vitacco Robles and the New York authorities who arrested Spindel.

Therefore, the above is flapdoodle.  

Rothmiller was trying to sell a silly book.  

Mike is starting to sound as goofy as Mark Shaw.

Your opinion. You are entitled. I think you are mistaken. Nothing has been "proved".  Positions are being asserted. That's all.  Claiming those in the opposite camp are greedy or 'goofy' is ineffective, imo...

Edited October 8, 2023 by Pamela Brown

[Joe Bauer]

Too many illogical aspects to MM's death, death scene and the persons there and soon showing up there and who waited so long before they even called the police to not rationally suspect something much more nefarious than the simple story she just wanted to end it all "on her own" and did.

One might also consider the fact that people who overdose often may not realize how many pills they have actually taken, due to the impaired effect of the first handful they take, and in so doing in a way, debatably, accidentally kill themselves.

Is that what happened to MM?

I don't want to believe RFK would ever do anything as diabolical as okaying the killing of a woman he and/or his brother may have had sexual relations with. 

For "any" reason.

It would be the ultimate cynicism on top of so much already regards the killings of JFK, RFK and MLK.