Those Front Steps

[Roger Odisio]

42 minutes ago, Alan Ford said:

These are fair questions, Mr. Larsen.

To my knowledge, Mr. Kamp has not to date disclosed where the superior frame came from. He should.

As for why he's still trying to get access to the original Darnell film------a noble enterprise--------I suspect (though I don't of course know) that he was only shown/given the one superior frame he shared with us. But again, it's up to him to be forthcoming with this information.

Now unless he (& others in the PM-in-Darnell=LHO camp) are privy to some esoteric information that indicates that a superior version of Darnell shows Mr. Oswald------------a vanishingly unlikely scenario IMO------------then the honest response to the superior frame's emergence would be for the PM folks to put their hands up and say:

'OK, the emergence of this new, superior frame is a setback. We admit PM here doesn't look like LHO, or even a male. However, we have not given up. There is still a chance, albeit a small one, that this frame is utterly unrepresentative of what the full superior version of Darnell shows. In the meantime, we wish to stress that the claim that LHO went out front does not, and should not, come down to the single question of whether he is PM in Darnell.'

If they made this their line going forward, it would ventilate the issue of Mr. Oswald's whereabouts @12:30, and avoid making the mistake the old AltgensDoorwayman crew made: that of unreasonable, evidence-denying dogmatism.

What you advocate in the last sentence *is already* the position of PM researchers, Alan.  There is no "unreasonable, evidence denying dogmatism".  I've already told you that.   The evidence shows that Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting and thus did not descend down the back steps after the murder as the WR claimed. He was somewhere else.  PM is one of the possibilities.  A very intriguing one.

Oswald said he went outside to watch the P Parade.  But we don't know exactly when he went outside or how long he stayed. If Darnell and or Wiegman did capture him on the steps it was pure happenstance, a few seconds among minutes. Therefore validating his alibi does not depend on him being PM in either film.

That is why trying to decipher the PM figure is a win-no lose situation.  If it is Oswald, it blows up the WR.  If it is someone else, he could still have been out there without being caught on film by either camera in their quick pass by the steps.

Trying to get access to the original films necessary to decipher the figure is likely to be a long slog.  While we're working on that, there is room for you to flesh out your claim that he was somewhere else, apparently outside the building. If you can do that, it, too, would blow up the WR.

 

 

 

[Alan Ford]

7 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

What you advocate in the last sentence *is already* the position of PM researchers, Alan.  There is no "unreasonable, evidence denying dogmatism".  I've already told you that.   The evidence shows that Oswald was not on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting and thus did not descend down the back steps after the murder as the WR claimed. He was somewhere else.  PM is one of the possibilities.  A very intriguing one.

Oswald said he went outside to watch the P Parade.  But we don't know exactly when he went outside or how long he stayed. If Darnell and or Wiegman did capture him on the steps it was pure happenstance, a few seconds among minutes. Therefore validating his alibi does not depend on him being PM in either film.

That is why trying to decipher the PM figure is a win-no lose situation.  If it is Oswald, it blows up the WR.  If it is someone else, he could still have been out there without being caught on film by either camera in their quick pass by the steps.

Trying to get access to the original films necessary to decipher the figure is likely to be a long slog.  While we're working on that, there is room for you to flesh out your claim that he was somewhere else, apparently outside the building. If you can do that, it, too, would blow up the WR.

Thank you, Mr. Odisio.

My take remains that PM in Darnell used to be "one of the possibilities", and yes, an extremely intriguing one at that, but that it has already been (to use your word) "deciphered" sufficiently to rule out Mr. Oswald as a serious candidate. I find it a pity that there are good folks who seem to be in a state of denial about what has happened here. They must know deep down that, had the 'Kamp frame' been available back in 2013, the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim would never have entered anyone's head. (Mr. Kamp's own decision to use a PM still from Wiegman rather than Darnell on the cover of his recent book is pretty telling-----------why not use the now iconic hero shot from Darnell?) 

All of which said! The enterprise of securing the original film is certainly a no-lose affair. And you and I are very much on the same page as to the end-goal: conclusive demolition of the WR fairytale account of Mr. Oswald's movements and whereabouts.

As such, we can just agree to differ and develop our respective lines of interest.

[Alan Ford]

So! To recap:

I believe this is Mr. Oswald in the Hughes film, standing way over on the west side of the doorway, taking a drink from his Coke. We do not see any flesh tone from his left hand (viewer's right) because it is behind his torso (he is holding something):

He is still in the same spot in Towner couple of seconds later, only now he is frenetically waving at Pres. Kennedy the object he was holding behind him in Towner: a flag (or somesuch):

And here he is, ~25 secs after the last shot, in Darnell ----------nowhere to be seen:

**

Between Towner and Darnell, of course, we have the Wiegman doorway frames, which also show us the west side of the doorway:

Here is where the ground gets very, very tricky, and tentative footsteps are called for...................

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

Some time back, this forum's Mr. Greg Doudna asked the question: "Is it certain there is a Prayer Man in the Wiegman film at all?"

I would rephrase the question: "Is it certain Prayer Man in the Wiegman film is the same person as Prayer Man in the Darnell film?"

Let's compare:

PM/Darnell is on the landing; PM/Wiegman is down at least one step.
Their bodies are oriented differently (compare the position of the left elbows).
Look how low PM/Wiegman's right elbow (viewer's left) goes when it's lowered. Look how close it comes to the narrow column of brickwork behind the white column:

Now of course, it's perfectly possible for PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell, stepping up on to the landing to become PM/Darnell.
But it's far from a given that this is what happened.
And it's no less possible for someone OTHER than PM/Wiegman to change position by the time of Darnell, for instance by moving across the landing to become PM/Darnell. There is ample time for this to happen.

If this is what happened, then we can comfortably solve the PM/Darnell riddle by identifying her as dark-haired Mrs. Pauline Sanders, who places herself on the east side when she came out to watch the motorcade:

[

The crux: I believe that PM/Wiegman is of potentially far more interest to the case than PM/Darnell..............

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

So! To recap:

I believe this is Mr. Oswald in the Hughes film, standing way over on the west side of the doorway, taking a drink from his Coke. We do not see any flesh tone from his left hand (viewer's right) because it is behind his torso (he is holding something):

He is still in the same spot in Towner couple of seconds later, only now he is frenetically waving at Pres. Kennedy the object he was holding behind him in Towner: a flag (or somesuch):

And here he is, ~25 secs after the last shot, in Darnell ----------nowhere to be seen:

**

Between Towner and Darnell, of course, we have the Wiegman doorway frames, which also show us the west side of the doorway:

Here is where the ground gets very, very tricky, and tentative footsteps are called for...................

Off the wall query:

Who is the figure in the pale blue (or powder-blue) long-sleeved shirt, who is towering over everyone around him? 

How is that figure so elevated? 

[Paul Bacon]

She's standing on the wall directly across the street from the doorway.  I think it's Tina Towner...

[Alan Ford]

That's young Miss Toni Glover. Pity she wasn't filming!

[Alan Ford]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:07 AM, Chris Davidson said:

Alan,

Welcome.

On a smaller scale with a little contrast added, albeit a little clearer:

 

 

Mr. Davidson, when you first posted this I missed the curious detail of what's going on here:

Perhaps not wholly irrelevant detail!: It was very windy out there..............

And did I mention a----------------flag?

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Roger Odisio]

9 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

Thank you, Mr. Odisio.

My take remains that PM in Darnell used to be "one of the possibilities", and yes, an extremely intriguing one at that, but that it has already been (to use your word) "deciphered" sufficiently to rule out Mr. Oswald as a serious candidate. I find it a pity that there are good folks who seem to be in a state of denial about what has happened here. They must know deep down that, had the 'Kamp frame' been available back in 2013, the PM-in-Darnell=LHO claim would never have entered anyone's head. (Mr. Kamp's own decision to use a PM still from Wiegman rather than Darnell on the cover of his recent book is pretty telling-----------why not use the now iconic hero shot from Darnell?) 

All of which said! The enterprise of securing the original film is certainly a no-lose affair. And you and I are very much on the same page as to the end-goal: conclusive demolition of the WR fairytale account of Mr. Oswald's movements and whereabouts.

As such, we can just agree to differ and develop our respective lines of interest.

I don't speak for Bart, but I can guess a reason for his choice of the cover photo.  It's because its shows nothing.  

The book is a meticulous account of Oswald's last days and along the way a thorough debunking of the WR fairytale.  It's not about, and does not depend, on what Darnell and Wiegman shows.

So, an unsolicited suggestion:  Spend less of your time trying to dismiss what Darnell and Wiegman might show, and more on developing your alternative account of where Oswald was at the time of the murder.

If you can convincingly do that, the PM concept will indeed be dead (your current claim of that is premature), but so will the WR, which is what matters.

[Chris Davidson]

Response to Alan's previous posting:

I believe that's the extended shadow from the woman(left side of the mailbox) running towards the steps/building.

Another point being that when some videos are stabilized, even using inferior quality material, sometimes events become a little clearer.

So those that question these methods might want to take that aspect into consideration.

Added on edit: The object you point out could be part of a stationary shadow from the woman in white ahead of the running woman.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Chris Davidson

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

So, an unsolicited suggestion:  Spend less of your time trying to dismiss what Darnell and Wiegman might show

I'm not the one trying to dismiss what Darnell shows, Mr. Odisio. As for Wiegman, try actually reading my posts before delivering yourself of ill-informed de haut en bas comments. Thank you.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ford

[Alan Ford]

1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

Response to Alan's previous posting:

I believe that's the extended shadow from the woman(left side of the mailbox) running towards the steps/building.

Another point being that when some videos are stabilized, even using inferior quality material, sometimes events become a little clearer.

So those that question these methods might want to take that aspect into consideration.

Added on edit: The object you point out could be part of a stationary shadow from the woman in white ahead of the running woman.

Yes I see what you mean about the running woman (good catch!). But I need a bit more time with these frames tbh---the height of the white area(s?) that come(s) into view is confusing when compared with the mailboxes sans object-in-front.............

As for the value of your stabilizations: inestimable.

Thank you! 👍

[Charles Blackmon]

On 10/26/2023 at 9:13 AM, Alan Ford said:

Can you see the image below, Mr. Blackmon (of Officer Baker & Mr. Roy Truly)?

How about this image of Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier?

No I cannot see it. Hate that.

[Alan Ford]

18 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

No I cannot see it. Hate that.

Well then I'm stumped. Perhaps a firewall issue? Hope you solve it!

[Alan Ford]

12 hours ago, Alan Ford said:

The crux: I believe that PM/Wiegman is of potentially far more interest to the case than PM/Darnell..............

Well!

As a preliminary to teasing out the issue of PM/Wiegman's possible identity, let's go back to our old friend, Mr. Billy Lovelady.

As already pointed out, Wiegman shows him at two different elevations on the steps.

Let's now note that, at both elevations, it shows the right side of his body (viewer's left) in shadow:

OK. So the western column of the doorway is casting a shadow over half his body. No big deal.

Only one problem. Let me introduce it by inviting you to compare Mr. Lovelady (Wiegman) with Mrs. Madie Reese* (Darnell):

*She's the lady in white who in Darnell is standing very close to the Lovelady-in-Wiegman position:

 

You will agree, I think, that Mrs. Reese is standing in full sunlight, yes?

Well-------------------why isn't Mr. Lovelady?

Edited October 27, 2023 by Alan Ford