Daily Mail and Rob Reiner

[Benjamin Cole]

Daily Mail  11/24----

"Director Rob Reiner claims he's unearthed PROOF that JFK was killed by FOUR shooters not one - and says the reason the first shot missed president's motorcade is KEY to theory

• President John F Kennedy was shot in Dallas, Texas , on November 22, 1963 and he was pronounced dead after arriving at the Parkland Memorial Hospital
• Official investigations concluded that he was assassinated by lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald from a sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.
• But Rob Reiner claims there were more people involved in the fatal shooting of Kennedy who he names in his 10-episode podcast titled 'Who Killed JFK?'" 

Reiner's intentions are probably good enough...but...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12785325/Rob-reiner-proof-jfk-killed-four-shooters.html

 

[Charles Blackmon]

So why did the first bullet miss so badly? An intentional miss maybe?

[Joe Bauer]

Oswald ( or whoever was in the SE corner 6th floor window of the TXSBD ) couldn't have drawn more attention to himself if he had pulled out a megaphone and shouted ..."I'M UP HERE!"

He at times stands so close to his half-opened window with rifle in hand, several sidewalk bystanders directly below who just happened to be idly gazing around see him well enough to give a general description of his build, clothing, hair type and even the rifle!

And the shooter chooses a building wall located shooting perch right next to and right above the motorcade route and which is so brightly illuminated by the full noon-time sun...it couldn't have been more visible had it been lighted up by half a dozen giant Hollywood premier spotlight lanterns.

Then, he sticks his cheap rifle out of this sun drenched illuminated window and pulls the trigger which makes a shot sound so loud the entire plaza area and hundreds of bystanders and dozens of police and other security are rocked by it's concussion. 

Many immediately turn their heads in the direction of the TXSBD.

Even workers inside the building hear and feel this first "BOOM!"

If that isn't the most attention drawing action ... what is?

Then, two more loud shots.

By this time many are looking directly at the upper floor windows.

How Oswald ( again if it was him ) could be so stupid in his "here I am" shooting feat action and not think of it's ridiculously obvious consequences is beyond logic.

Unless, like many have speculated, it was a purposeful action to draw all eyes on his location...and away from other more rationally hidden shooter ones?

Oswald took so many more logical planning precautions when he took one pot shot at Walker. At night. Hidden from sight. A good one shot only running away escape plan.

Still, using city buses to get to and from Walker's residence is not what one would call a highly sophisticated assassination plan.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Four snipers?

I think Reiner is going for the south knoll also.

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

So why did the first bullet miss so badly? An intentional miss maybe?

The first shot heard by the witnesses didn't miss. From chapter 5:

 

The First Shot Miss Myth

For those reluctant to read through the plethora of statements and testimony recounted in the pages to follow, but who are nevertheless curious as to how I can feel so sure the first shot did not miss, I hereby offer a telling taste of the statements of every witness I could find who described the activities in the limousine during or just after the first shot. While some of these witnesses believed the first shot missed, they almost all believed Kennedy responded to the shot by leaning forward or jerking to his left, actions the Zapruder film reveals occurred only after he'd been hit. My conclusion that these witnesses were thereby describing Kennedy's actions between frames 190 and 224 of the Zapruder film is further confirmed by the fact that not one of these witnesses said the President continued waving and smiling to the crowd on his right after the first shot rang out. Common sense tells us that this should have been the impression of at least a few of these witnesses should they really have heard a shot at the time proposed by most "first shot miss" proponents, around frame 160 of the Zapruder film. But common sense, alas, is often ignored in favor of something more glamorous.

Remote Viewers--those noting the impact of the shots from buildings looking down on Dealey Plaza (all listed witnesses heard three shots unless otherwise noted):

James Jarman (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p334-335) “He said that he heard a shot and then saw President Kennedy move his right hand up to his head."

Ruth Smith (12-21-63 FBI interview, CD206 p.9) “She looked back toward President Kennedy’s car after the first shot and thinks he raised his hands to his face.”

Lillian Mooneyham (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H531) “Mrs. Mooneyham heard a gunshot and observed President Kennedy slump to the left of the seat of his car."

Cecil Ault (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “Mr. Ault heard three loud reports…Following the first shot Mr. Ault noted that President Kennedy appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the president slumped into his seat."

Dr. Samuel Paternostro (1-20-64 FBI report, 24H536) “He said he estimated several seconds, possibly four or five more, elapsed between the first report and the second and third reports. He said he observed President John F. Kennedy when he appeared to grab his head and thought at the time he is “well-trained;” then, when the other reports followed in quick succession, he realized that the President had been shot.”

Harold Norman (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) "I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something."

So, we're just beginning and the score is already 6-0. All these witnesses heard three shots and all of them believed Kennedy responded to the first shot.

Eastsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the Plaza to the east of the limousine at the time of the first shot:

Pierce Allman (11-22-63 eyewitness report on WFAA radio, between 1:45 and 2:00 PM CST) “Right after Mr. Kennedy passed in front of me I heard one big explosion and my immediate thought like most of the people standing around me was “this is firecrackers, but it’s in pretty poor taste”. I looked and saw the president, I thought, duck. Evidently, he was slumping at the time."

Jean Newman (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H489, 24H218) "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably scared him too, just like it did me, because he flinched like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest." (Only heard two shots.)

June Dishong (Letter written on 11-22-63, as read by her daughter on CNN, 11-21-2003, and featured on the Sixth Floor Museum website) “here come the president and his wife…His arm in the air waving…He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound. Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car."

Mary Woodward (11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) "After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car...I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun." (Kennedy, of course, does not turn and look around after frame 160, but resumes waving. What Woodward called "turning" then is almost certainly a reaction to the first shot's impact.)

Patricia Lawrence (11-24-63 FBI Report, 22H841): “When the motorcade passed she stated she was looking at Mrs. Kennedy who was looking to the other side of the car. The President was looking in her direction and she had waved. She heard the shot fired as the president was waving." (The president was not waving at frame 160 of the Zapruder film--the moment of the purported first shot miss--but was waving by frame 180, a second or so later. Still, as Lawrence does not specifically say the president stopped waving after the shot, it's difficult to say for sure that she is describing a first shot hit.)

Mrs. Ruby Henderson (12-6-63 FBI report, 24H524) “at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker, and saw what she thought was paper fly out of the Presidential car. She said she now realized it was a shot she heard and what she thought was paper was probably flesh." (If so, she thought the first of the four shots she heard was the head shot. This seems highly unlikely, in light of all the other statements. It seems probable then that she was mistaken on this point.)

TE Moore (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. Moore observed the President slump forward in the Presidential car."

Phil Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H492-497) "When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and slumped forward.”

Linda Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H498-499) (When asked if she heard shots) “Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward."

Welcome Eugene Barnett (7-23-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H539-544) “I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn’t look any more then. I thought he was ducking down."

Mary Sue Dickerson (Article by Beverly Shay in the 11-01-11 online edition of Now Magazine) “As she was making eye contact with the president of the United States, several things occurred at once. She heard what she thought were firecrackers, which initially seemed so celebratory, but then he slumped forward."

Karen Westbrook (11-28-17 Living History interview with the Sixth Floor Museum) "When I heard the shot fired... I thought it was a car backfiring... Everything seemed to go into slow motion in my mind. After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up..."

While we can't rightly count Mrs. Henderson, Ms. Lawrence or Ms. Newman as first shot hit witnesses, the statements of the other 9 witnesses definitely support that Kennedy was hit by the first shot. This makes the score 15-0. Unfortunately, things get a little more confusing when we move on to discuss the statements of those on the west end of the plaza.

Westsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the plaza to the west of the limousine at the time of the last shot:

Abraham Zapruder (2:10 PM 11-22-63 interview on WFAA) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.” (Only heard two definite shots, but felt certain Kennedy was hit by the first one.)

Emmett Hudson (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H481) “At the same time the President’s car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat." (First shot head shot.)

S.M. Holland (11-22-63 statement to Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 19H480, 24H212) “the President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over...After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up." (Once again...first shot, head shot.)

Malcolm Summers (11-23-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H500) “The President’s car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, “Oh, no,” then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots." (Only recalled hearing two shots, with the first one most probably the head shot.)

Jack Franzen (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H840) “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President’s car and noticed small fragments flying inside the car and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile." (Once again, the first shot he describes is the head shot.)

Mrs. Jack Franzen (11-25-63 FBI report, 24H525) “She advised shortly after the President’s automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her to as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile." (Her statement mimics her husband's. Once again, the first shot is the head shot.)

Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker (Undated 1963-1964 statement included with Decker Exhibit 5323, 19H458) “I distinctly remember hearing 2 shots. As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw what appeared to be a spray of water come out of the rear seat of the President’s car." (Only heard two shots, the first of which can be presumed to be the head shot.)

J.W. Foster (3-26-64 FBI report, CD897 p.20-21) “Just as the vehicle in which President Kennedy was riding reached a point on Elm Street just east of the underpass, Patrolman Foster heard a noise that sounded like a large firecracker…he realized something was wrong because of the movement of the President. Another report was heard by Patrolman Foster and about the same time the report was heard, he observed the President’s head appear to explode, and immediately thereafter, he heard a third report which he knew was a shot.” (As President Kennedy's movements between Zapruder frame 160 and 190 would not have convinced Foster that something was wrong, it follows that the first shot was heard after 190, and that this shot hit Kennedy.)

Marilyn Sitzman (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “There was nothing unusual until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left." (Only heard two shots.)

Stavis Ellis (HSCA Vol. XII, p.23) “On August 5, 1978...Ellis said that just as he started down the hill of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy’s car and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb. Ellis thought it was a fragment grenade. Ellis also said that President Kennedy turned around and looked over his shoulder." (Even though Ellis believed the first shot missed, his description of Kennedy's actions by no means matches the behavior of Kennedy observed between frames 160 and 190 of the Zapruder film, and instead suggests the first shot hit. The "fragment grenade" observed by Ellis was most logically a piece of Kennedy's skull, which would suggest the first shot heard by Ellis was the head shot. It also seems possible Ellis heard less than three shots.)

Well, this is a surprise. Here, we have ten witnesses from the west end of the plaza--and all of them recalling at least two shots--and seven of them describing the events observed in the Zapruder film at the time of the head shot as the events they observed at the time of the FIRST shot. Now, this is curious, and suggests that (as Kennedy was obviously hit at least once before the head shot) not only did the first shot not miss, but that the second shot was the head shot. Huh. It follows then that it was the THIRD shot that missed. Now, as far as the other three witnesses--the ones who thought the first shot was other than the head shot--well, they all saw Kennedy react to the first shot. So, yeah, all ten indicated Kennedy was hit by the first shot. (Now we can call it 25-0 or count Foster and disregard the others, whereby it rests at 16-0. You decide.)

Centrists--those standing to the west of Kennedy at the time of the first shot, and to the east of Kennedy at the time of the last shot.

William Newman (11-22-63 interview on WFAA) “we were at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President when we heard the first shot and the President.....I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked....you know, fear." (Only heard two shots.)

Frances Gayle Newman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up."

Mary Moorman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over." (Moorman's photo depicts the head shot. In other words, she thought the first shot was the head shot.)

Jean Hill (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H479, 24H212) “Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the President and Jackie in the back seat…Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap." (Once again...first shot--or burst--head shot.)

Charles Brehm (11-22-63 NBC television interview first broadcast around 3:15 CST, as shown in Rush to Judgment) “He was coming down the Street and my five-year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street. And I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved and I waved (breaks up)…as he was waving back, the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat."

John Chism (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H471) "When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him “The President,” sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side." (Only heard two shots.)

Marvin Faye Chism (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H472) “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left." (Only heard two shots.)

Well, this is also interesting. Why did so few of those in the middle of the plaza hear three shots? The thought occurs that one of the shots was harder to hear than the others. The score, when one includes those hearing but two shots is now 32-0. Should one limit the count to those initially claiming to have heard three shots, moreover, the score is still 18-0.

[James DiEugenio]

I have always thought his myself.

Good summary.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

The first shot heard by the witnesses didn't miss. From chapter 5:

 

The First Shot Miss Myth

For those reluctant to read through the plethora of statements and testimony recounted in the pages to follow, but who are nevertheless curious as to how I can feel so sure the first shot did not miss, I hereby offer a telling taste of the statements of every witness I could find who described the activities in the limousine during or just after the first shot. While some of these witnesses believed the first shot missed, they almost all believed Kennedy responded to the shot by leaning forward or jerking to his left, actions the Zapruder film reveals occurred only after he'd been hit. My conclusion that these witnesses were thereby describing Kennedy's actions between frames 190 and 224 of the Zapruder film is further confirmed by the fact that not one of these witnesses said the President continued waving and smiling to the crowd on his right after the first shot rang out. Common sense tells us that this should have been the impression of at least a few of these witnesses should they really have heard a shot at the time proposed by most "first shot miss" proponents, around frame 160 of the Zapruder film. But common sense, alas, is often ignored in favor of something more glamorous.

Remote Viewers--those noting the impact of the shots from buildings looking down on Dealey Plaza (all listed witnesses heard three shots unless otherwise noted):

James Jarman (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p334-335) “He said that he heard a shot and then saw President Kennedy move his right hand up to his head."

Ruth Smith (12-21-63 FBI interview, CD206 p.9) “She looked back toward President Kennedy’s car after the first shot and thinks he raised his hands to his face.”

Lillian Mooneyham (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H531) “Mrs. Mooneyham heard a gunshot and observed President Kennedy slump to the left of the seat of his car."

Cecil Ault (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “Mr. Ault heard three loud reports…Following the first shot Mr. Ault noted that President Kennedy appeared to raise up in his seat in the Presidential automobile and after the second shot the president slumped into his seat."

Dr. Samuel Paternostro (1-20-64 FBI report, 24H536) “He said he estimated several seconds, possibly four or five more, elapsed between the first report and the second and third reports. He said he observed President John F. Kennedy when he appeared to grab his head and thought at the time he is “well-trained;” then, when the other reports followed in quick succession, he realized that the President had been shot.”

Harold Norman (3-24-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H186-198) "I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something."

So, we're just beginning and the score is already 6-0. All these witnesses heard three shots and all of them believed Kennedy responded to the first shot.

Eastsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the Plaza to the east of the limousine at the time of the first shot:

Pierce Allman (11-22-63 eyewitness report on WFAA radio, between 1:45 and 2:00 PM CST) “Right after Mr. Kennedy passed in front of me I heard one big explosion and my immediate thought like most of the people standing around me was “this is firecrackers, but it’s in pretty poor taste”. I looked and saw the president, I thought, duck. Evidently, he was slumping at the time."

Jean Newman (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H489, 24H218) "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably scared him too, just like it did me, because he flinched like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest." (Only heard two shots.)

June Dishong (Letter written on 11-22-63, as read by her daughter on CNN, 11-21-2003, and featured on the Sixth Floor Museum website) “here come the president and his wife…His arm in the air waving…He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound. Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car."

Mary Woodward (11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) "After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car...I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun." (Kennedy, of course, does not turn and look around after frame 160, but resumes waving. What Woodward called "turning" then is almost certainly a reaction to the first shot's impact.)

Patricia Lawrence (11-24-63 FBI Report, 22H841): “When the motorcade passed she stated she was looking at Mrs. Kennedy who was looking to the other side of the car. The President was looking in her direction and she had waved. She heard the shot fired as the president was waving." (The president was not waving at frame 160 of the Zapruder film--the moment of the purported first shot miss--but was waving by frame 180, a second or so later. Still, as Lawrence does not specifically say the president stopped waving after the shot, it's difficult to say for sure that she is describing a first shot hit.)

Mrs. Ruby Henderson (12-6-63 FBI report, 24H524) “at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker, and saw what she thought was paper fly out of the Presidential car. She said she now realized it was a shot she heard and what she thought was paper was probably flesh." (If so, she thought the first of the four shots she heard was the head shot. This seems highly unlikely, in light of all the other statements. It seems probable then that she was mistaken on this point.)

TE Moore (1-10-64 FBI report, 24H534) “By the time President Kennedy had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. Moore observed the President slump forward in the Presidential car."

Phil Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H492-497) "When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and slumped forward.”

Linda Willis (7-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H498-499) (When asked if she heard shots) “Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward."

Welcome Eugene Barnett (7-23-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H539-544) “I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn’t look any more then. I thought he was ducking down."

Mary Sue Dickerson (Article by Beverly Shay in the 11-01-11 online edition of Now Magazine) “As she was making eye contact with the president of the United States, several things occurred at once. She heard what she thought were firecrackers, which initially seemed so celebratory, but then he slumped forward."

Karen Westbrook (11-28-17 Living History interview with the Sixth Floor Museum) "When I heard the shot fired... I thought it was a car backfiring... Everything seemed to go into slow motion in my mind. After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up..."

While we can't rightly count Mrs. Henderson, Ms. Lawrence or Ms. Newman as first shot hit witnesses, the statements of the other 9 witnesses definitely support that Kennedy was hit by the first shot. This makes the score 15-0. Unfortunately, things get a little more confusing when we move on to discuss the statements of those on the west end of the plaza.

Westsiders--those noting the impact of the shots from a location in the plaza to the west of the limousine at the time of the last shot:

Abraham Zapruder (2:10 PM 11-22-63 interview on WFAA) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.” (Only heard two definite shots, but felt certain Kennedy was hit by the first one.)

Emmett Hudson (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H481) “At the same time the President’s car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat." (First shot head shot.)

S.M. Holland (11-22-63 statement to Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 19H480, 24H212) “the President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over...After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up." (Once again...first shot, head shot.)

Malcolm Summers (11-23-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H500) “The President’s car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, “Oh, no,” then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots." (Only recalled hearing two shots, with the first one most probably the head shot.)

Jack Franzen (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H840) “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President’s car and noticed small fragments flying inside the car and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile." (Once again, the first shot he describes is the head shot.)

Mrs. Jack Franzen (11-25-63 FBI report, 24H525) “She advised shortly after the President’s automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her to as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile." (Her statement mimics her husband's. Once again, the first shot is the head shot.)

Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker (Undated 1963-1964 statement included with Decker Exhibit 5323, 19H458) “I distinctly remember hearing 2 shots. As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw what appeared to be a spray of water come out of the rear seat of the President’s car." (Only heard two shots, the first of which can be presumed to be the head shot.)

J.W. Foster (3-26-64 FBI report, CD897 p.20-21) “Just as the vehicle in which President Kennedy was riding reached a point on Elm Street just east of the underpass, Patrolman Foster heard a noise that sounded like a large firecracker…he realized something was wrong because of the movement of the President. Another report was heard by Patrolman Foster and about the same time the report was heard, he observed the President’s head appear to explode, and immediately thereafter, he heard a third report which he knew was a shot.” (As President Kennedy's movements between Zapruder frame 160 and 190 would not have convinced Foster that something was wrong, it follows that the first shot was heard after 190, and that this shot hit Kennedy.)

Marilyn Sitzman (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “There was nothing unusual until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left." (Only heard two shots.)

Stavis Ellis (HSCA Vol. XII, p.23) “On August 5, 1978...Ellis said that just as he started down the hill of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy’s car and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb. Ellis thought it was a fragment grenade. Ellis also said that President Kennedy turned around and looked over his shoulder." (Even though Ellis believed the first shot missed, his description of Kennedy's actions by no means matches the behavior of Kennedy observed between frames 160 and 190 of the Zapruder film, and instead suggests the first shot hit. The "fragment grenade" observed by Ellis was most logically a piece of Kennedy's skull, which would suggest the first shot heard by Ellis was the head shot. It also seems possible Ellis heard less than three shots.)

Well, this is a surprise. Here, we have ten witnesses from the west end of the plaza--and all of them recalling at least two shots--and seven of them describing the events observed in the Zapruder film at the time of the head shot as the events they observed at the time of the FIRST shot. Now, this is curious, and suggests that (as Kennedy was obviously hit at least once before the head shot) not only did the first shot not miss, but that the second shot was the head shot. Huh. It follows then that it was the THIRD shot that missed. Now, as far as the other three witnesses--the ones who thought the first shot was other than the head shot--well, they all saw Kennedy react to the first shot. So, yeah, all ten indicated Kennedy was hit by the first shot. (Now we can call it 25-0 or count Foster and disregard the others, whereby it rests at 16-0. You decide.)

Centrists--those standing to the west of Kennedy at the time of the first shot, and to the east of Kennedy at the time of the last shot.

William Newman (11-22-63 interview on WFAA) “we were at the edge of the curb, getting ready to wave at the President when we heard the first shot and the President.....I don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked....you know, fear." (Only heard two shots.)

Frances Gayle Newman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H218) “When President Kennedy’s car was about ten feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and then covered his head with his hands and then raised up."

Mary Moorman (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over." (Moorman's photo depicts the head shot. In other words, she thought the first shot was the head shot.)

Jean Hill (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H479, 24H212) “Just as Mary Moorman started to take a picture we were looking at the President and Jackie in the back seat…Just as the President looked up toward us two shots rang out and I saw the President grab his chest and fall forward across Jackie’s lap." (Once again...first shot--or burst--head shot.)

Charles Brehm (11-22-63 NBC television interview first broadcast around 3:15 CST, as shown in Rush to Judgment) “He was coming down the Street and my five-year old boy and myself were by ourselves on the grass there on Commerce Street. And I asked Joe to wave to him and Joe waved and I waved (breaks up)…as he was waving back, the shot rang out and he slumped down in his seat."

John Chism (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H471) "When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him “The President,” sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side." (Only heard two shots.)

Marvin Faye Chism (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H472) “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left." (Only heard two shots.)

Well, this is also interesting. Why did so few of those in the middle of the plaza hear three shots? The thought occurs that one of the shots was harder to hear than the others. The score, when one includes those hearing but two shots is now 32-0. Should one limit the count to those initially claiming to have heard three shots, moreover, the score is still 18-0.

Excellent review of eye-ear witnesses. Curious that so many heard only two shots.  

That could suggest the second and third shots came from two separate locations. 

The speed of sound is 1,128 fps.

So, if you are an ear-witness, and one shot is fired from a gun 282 feet away from you, and another gun is fired 141 feet away from you, but an eighth of a second later, you will hear only one shot. The sound from the two separate shots will reach your ears simultaneously. 

 

[Pat Speer]

30 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Excellent review of eye-ear witnesses. Curious that so many heard only two shots.  

That could suggest the second and third shots came from two separate locations. 

The speed of sound is 1,128 fps.

So, if you are an ear-witness, and one shot is fired from a gun 282 feet away from you, and another gun is fired 141 feet away from you, but an eighth of a second later, you will hear only one shot. The sound from the two separate shots will reach your ears simultaneously. 

 

My conclusion as well. While those further away heard three shots, with the last two bang-bang, those close to JFK and the knoll heard two shots. This suggests that these last two shots (or sounds) came from different locations. But, it could be that these witnesses were so horrified by what they were witnessing that only one sound registered at this point. To wit, those close enough to discern which of the last two bang-bang shots hit Kennedy almost uniformly thought he was hit by the first of these shots. (When I set out to create a data base of witness statements, I was fairly certain it would indicate the witnesses thought the first shot struck Kennedy, but was totally surprised that the witnesses were also quite clear about the second shot being the fatal head shot, as opposed to the third shot (or sound). 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Pat Speer

[John Deignan]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Four snipers?

I think Reiner is going for the south knoll also.

In one of the podcasts he mentioned talking with Sherry Fiester. I definitely think he is positioning a shooter on the south Knoll.

[James DiEugenio]

BTW Ben and Pat, this is what Bob Tanenbaum thinks also about the earwitness evidence.

That the people closer to the scene heard something different than those further away.

[Paul Brancato]

How about we listen first? I’m impressed, hugely, by the tone of it. Rob Reiner cares - a lot. 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, John Deignan said:

In one of the podcasts he mentioned talking with Sherry Fiester. I definitely think he is positioning a shooter on the south Knoll.

I think I pointed out in one of the other threads that if Reiner was gonna cite Plumlee, he would have to deal with Plumlee's claim the fatal shot was fired from the south knoll. It appears he is doing just that, and is swallowing it all up. 

[David Von Pein]

I just listened to Episode 3 of Rob Reiner's new 10-part podcast ("Who Killed JFK?") --- and it's just about what I would expect from conspiracy theorists, with all the usual Conspiracy Myths being recycled and rehashed for a new audience here in November of 2023, including the myth about the Warren Commission being forced to accept the Single-Bullet Theory when the WC found out about James Tague. Mr. Reiner and company, as usual, totally ignore (or failed to read and comprehend) Page 117 of the Warren Report, which clearly states that the Commission had considered multiple possibilities to explain Mr. Tague's slight cheek injury.

And then there's the usual CT denial with respect to what can clearly be seen going on with Governor Connally at frames 224 to 230 of the Zapruder Film, with Mr. Reiner assuring his listeners that Connally wasn't reacting to his bullet wounds until well after JFK was reacting to his (which is just a flat-out falsehood).

Etc., etc....

So, if you want to listen to this tripe linked below, just be prepared for the usual conspiracy-flavored conjecture and speculation.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Mike Aitken]

I have to go to a firearms range for work, and I’ve also been around/heard gunfire on the street from different distances, in a major city.  It’s extremely difficult to distinguish the number of rounds fired, based solely on the acoustics, when the rounds are fired in quick succession.  Additionally, when shots are fired in an urban environment with large buildings around, it is difficult to distinguish an actual shot from a reverberation/repercussion.

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I just listened to Episode 3 of Rob Reiner's new 10-part podcast ("Who Killed JFK?") --- and it's just about what I would expect from conspiracy theorists, with all the usual Conspiracy Myths being recycled and rehashed for a new audience here in November of 2023, including the myth about the Warren Commission being forced to accept the Single-Bullet Theory when the WC found out about James Tague. Mr. Reiner and company, as usual, totally ignore (or failed to read and comprehend) Page 117 of the Warren Report, which clearly states that the Commission had considered multiple possibilities to explain Mr. Tague's slight cheek injury.

And then there's the usual CT denial with respect to what can clearly be seen going on with Governor Connally at frames 224 to 230 of the Zapruder Film, with Mr. Reiner assuring his listeners that Connally wasn't reacting to his bullet wounds until well after JFK was reacting to his (which is just a flat-out falsehood).

Etc., etc....

So, if you want to listen to this tripe linked below, just be prepared for the usual conspiracy-flavored conjecture and speculation.

 

Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"

That happens ~Z-295. 

According to your theory, after being shot through the chest, then Gov. Connally turns to look over his own right shoulder, nearly making a 180-degree turn in his seat, to check on JFK's condition. But unable to see JFK, and still unaware he has been shot through the chest, then JBC straightens up to face forward, in order to try to look over his own left shoulder---and only then is thrust forward, as if shot. 

Your version just does not hold water.

I seriously doubt JBC, shot through the chest (let alone also through the wrist), would make a 180-degree turn in his seat to then check on JFK. 

JBC described his wound as immediately incapacitating, a very believable statement. In addition, he was alert and coherent even when he got to Parkland. 

In the Z-film, JBC is indisputably pushed forward around ~Z-295.

In the past, you have erroneously stated a bullet passing through a body will not push a body.

That is true for bullets that do not strike major bones.

But the slug that hit JBC pushed through 4 inches to 5 inches of rib (tunneling along the rub) before exiting, thus meeting resistance nearly the whole way. 

You need to re-appraise your scenario.