Question about the Lead car

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

11 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I first read the story about Chaney and Curry's  meeting happening on the Stemmons onramp in a piece from Gary Mack. He claimed they each came to him independently and related the same account. I think they had both passed away by the time he told the story so it could not be verified.
 It is one of the most absurd stories I have ever heard and is so full of holes that it is a joke, imo.
 According to Mack, that stop happened for two reasons. Greer did not know how to get to parkland and needed directions, and secondly Curry was not sure if there really was an emergency that would necessitate a rush to Parkland.
 It is true that Greer did not know the route to Parkland, but the idea of bringing their rush to the hospital to a halt so someone could inform Greer, or to make sure they even needed to rush to Parkland is ridiculous. If they suspected there was a medical emergency is Curry going to stop the motorcade to have a talk with them? Even if Curry wanted to instruct Greer or ascertain the possible injuries he could use the radio. In addition it does not make sense that Greer could get lost when he was right behind Curry. With sirens going the traffic was getting out of the way and there is no chance Greer and Curry would get separated by a traffic light.
The idea he would stop the motorcade is unthinkable. What is he going to do, have some cops check everyone to see if they have been shot?
 Then there is the testimony of Curry in which he gives the timeline. According to Curry the conversation with Chaney absolutely happens in the plaza before hitting the underpass. That is true of all the witnesses to Chaney's ride forward.
 By the time they get to the Stemmonns onramp Curry was fully aware there was an emergency. He heard the shots fired and then both Sorrels and Lawson yell 'Shots fired get to Parkland"(Per their testimony.).He sees the limo speed up towards him so he floors it. But he says the limo still caught up to him under the overpass. He must have heard Kinney's siren too. Kinney and Kellerman also put out radio calls before they reached the underpass. When the limo caught Curry in the underpass Curry said he heard two people from the limo yell "Get to Parkland!". Hill and Greer have verified they yelled this. By that time the limo was slightly ahead of Curry and accelerating, (Approx 35mph just before going under the overpass.)
 The idea that Curry would tell Mack that he needed to stop the motorcade to verify that they needed to rush to Parkland is not believable.
 Chaney would have also seen the panic in the plaza, heard Kinney's siren, and seen Curry and the limo accelerating out of the plaza. He may have also heard the two radio calls from Kinney and Kellerman.
As seen in the McIntyre photo Chaney would also have seen that the Limo was about 800 ft ahead of him by then and that it was racing for the onramp. Kinney's siren was still blaring. But instead of attempting to use his radio Chaney must have decided he would catch up to the limo before giving his message to Curry.
He was not aware the Limo would stop on the onramp. He must have assumed that he would be chasing it down the Stemmons freeway for some time before he could catch up and relay the most important and time sensitive message of his career. 
 If Chaney did catch up on the onramp Curry, would he still think he had to inform Curry that there was a problem in the motorcade at that point?  
 Davis Lifton has said they stopped on the onramp because Jackie tried to jump out of the limo. Possibly due to a delayed panic reaction. Maybe that is true and Curry's reason for stopping was a cover story for Jackie's benefit. But the sequence of events up to that point point make it very clear both Chaney and Curry already knew there was an emergency.  
 Gary Mack's story does not pass the smell test. It is more likely Mack made the whole thing up to explain away the testimony of Curry, Chaney, Hargis, Sorrels and Lawson. 
 

Earle Brown said that the motorcade stopped for at least 30 sec on the on-ramp.

Hoffman's account supports Brown.

Plus we have other similar accounts.

Plus a lot of evidence fits a stoppage.

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Jeff Royle said:

The Muchmore film shows the lead car's tail light is lit-up (brakes being applied).  I'm not sure if the president's limo slowed down but I would agree that Connally was probably a bit too tall/big for the jump seat and was doing his best to sit comfortably in it.  That might mean he was leaning forward.

I looked at Robert Groden's "The Killing of a President" today for what I mentioned earlier.  Pg. 42.  Black and white, hard to tell for sure but it looks like exactly what you said'  Brake lights.  Which makes sense.  At the sound of the shots the limo finally sped up, the lead car slowed down.  What I gather from the photo, only 30-40 yards apart?

First post, welcome Jeff.

[Ron Bulman]

The photo I found in Groden's book is actually Altgens 7.  It's clear the limo has taken off after it's stop or near stop.  Hill is all the way on the bumper step and Jackie is starting to climb onto the trunk.  It does appear the brake lights on the lead car are on, compared to the darkness of those on the limo.  It seems they stopped or slowed way down.  After they heard shots?  Or a radio report by Kellerman?  Probably trying to see what was going on behind them before going under the RR overpass/starting into the curve of the entrance ramp?  IDK, make sense?

[Pat Speer]

Here are the quotes I've collected from the passengers of the lead car. 

From chapter 6 at patspeer.com:

Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry drove the small white lead car in the motorcade. (11-24-63 article by Donald Jansen in the New York Times) "The chief was riding in a car 40 feet ahead of the limousine carrying Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy and Gov. and Mrs. John B. Connally Jr. of Texas. The Motorcade was on its way to the Trade Mart where the President was to have spoken at a lunch. Chief Curry said he could tell from the sound of the three shots that they had come from the book company building, near downtown Dallas." (undated report found in a 12-18-63 report of the Secret Service, CD3 p 55) "As I recall, we were about half-way between Houston and the Triple Underpass when I heard a sharp crack. Someone said: 'Is that a firecracker?' After this remark, I remember hearing two other sharp reports. All of these reports were fairly close together. There was perhaps a longer pause between the first and second reports than between the second and third. At this time I glanced into my rear view mirror and could see a commotion in the President's car which I believe was about 100 feet behind our car at this time." (4-22-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H150-202) “I was riding in a Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President’s car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn’t tell where it was coming from...We were just approaching an underpass…from the report I couldn’t tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind...we heard this report…we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so (down Elm)…(when asked how far ahead of the Presidential vehicle he was) “to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet” (when asked where the President’s car was at the time of the first shot) “I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125- 150 feet west of Houston Street…(when asked how far it had gone by the time of the second shot) “perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along”  (and the third shot) “A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further”  (when asked the duration of the shots) “perhaps 5 or 6 seconds…I heard three shots.  I will never forget it.” (9-25-64 interview with William Manchester, as represented in The Death of a President, 1967) (On the first shot) "Curry was under the impression that someone had fired a railroad torpedo." (8-18-69 interview with Johnson Library) "The Secret Service man had a radio but it didn't seem to be working too well at the time. He had been talking to some of the agents in the cars behind him, but it was a little portable machine. When I heard the shots and looked back in the rear view mirror I could see commotion in the President's car. About that time a motorcycle also pulled over, and I asked him what had happened, if someone had been hurt, and he said yes. I told him, "Take us to Parkland Hospital." (Curry's description of the shots in his book, JFK Assassination File, published 1969) "About half-way between Houston and the triple-underpass I heard a sharp crack. Someone in the car said, 'Is that a firecracker?' Two other sharp reports came almost directly after the first. All of the reports were fairly close together, but perhaps there was a longer pause between the first and second than between the second and third. The President's car was only about 100 feet behind our car at that moment. I glanced into my rear view mirror and could see the commotion in the President's car. Everyone was confused." (9-5-75 FBI report) “Lt. Jack Revill of Dallas Police Department told SA Brown that he had recently been contacted by former Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry who told him he still has the impression that two men were involved in the shooting of President Kennedy.” (2-6-77 UPI article found in the Valley News) "Reflecting on the fateful day which changed his life, Curry says, "The first shot sounded like a firecracker or a railroad torpedo. When the second and third shots came, I was sure it was rifle fire."

Winston Lawson (11-23-63 report, 17H628-629) “It was about the time our car was arriving at this bridge that I heard the first shot.  I believe I heard two more sharp reports and looking back saw people scurrying away from the route, as though they were taking cover. Almost immediately the President’s car leaped ahead.” (12-1-63 statement, 17H630-634) “As the lead car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away.” (4-23-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 4H317-358) (when asked how far ahead they were of the limousine) “I think it was a little further ahead than it had been in the motorcade…I heard this very loud report…my first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that…I can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on the grassy median kind of area running around and dropping down….I am positive that it came from the rear, and then I spun that way to see what had occurred back there…Then I heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer together than the first. There was one report, and a pause, then two more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than one and two.” (1-31-78 interview with HSCA investigator, file #180-10074-10396) "As they neared the Triple Overpass, Lawson heard the first shot, which to Lawson sounded like a "firecracker" or "cherry bomb." This was followed by a total of two more shots." (9-5-03 interview with the Sixth Floor Museum) "I believe I was just about to go under the--pretty close to it anyway--the underpass to go out on the Stemmons Freeway sometime a little bit later, and I heard a shot, (makes sound) like that, and then I heard another one (makes sound). And the third one was a little closer to the second one than the first one was to the second one...I thought 'shots'...I thought immediately that it had come from over my right hand shoulder." (11-22-03 article in the Dallas Morning News)  “And then came the first shot. Like most witnesses, Win Lawson recalls two more, though puzzled by the quicker pace between the second and third.” (Interview in the Discovery Channel program The Kennedy Detail, first broadcast 12-2-10) (While purportedly discussing the last two shots) "I heard a bang (he then waits about two seconds) bang." (Later in the program, when discussing the number of shots fired) "There were three. They were exactly like that. The third one came closer to the second one than the second one was to the first one. Bang (he waits about three seconds) Bang..Bang (This last bang now comes about a second after the second bang.) They were from back of me over my right shoulder. Nothing went bang in front of me. Nothing went bang from the side of me--the front side of me. That shot came from the school book depository, back over my right hand shoulder." 

Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker rode in the back seat of the lead car. (11-22-63 article in the Dallas Times-Herald) "Sheriff Decker said he and Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry were riding in the lead car in the parade about one and a half lengths in front of the President's car. The Sheriff said he heard two shots and 'may have seen one of the bullets hit the concrete and bounce.' He said he did not see the other bullet. 'It all happened so fast, I'm just not sure what happened,' Sheriff Decker said." (Undated 1963-1964 statement included with Decker Exhibit 5323, 19H458) “I distinctly remember hearing 2 shots. As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw what appeared to be a spray of water come out of the rear seat of the President’s car. At this same moment, Mr. Lawson said, “Let’s get out of here and get to the nearest hospital.” When I heard the shots I noted motorcycle officers coming off their cycles and running up the embankment on Dealey Plaza.” (Undated report found in a 12-18-63 Secret Service report, CD3 p56) "I was in the lead car with Chief of Police Jesse Curry...SA Lawson made the statement that were just about on time...At about the time of that conversation there were two shots that I heard. There were three shots fired but I do not remember hearing one of them." 

Forrest Sorrels (11-28-63 statement, 21H548) “When we were at a point approximately three fourths of the distance between the Houston and Elm Street intersections and the first underpass, I heard what sounded like a rifle shot and said “What’s that?”, as I turned to my right to look back in the direction of the terrace and the Texas School Book Depository. When I heard two more shots, I said “let’s get out of here”. I looked towards the top of the terrace to my right as the sound of the shots seemed to come from that direction. I noted that the President’s car had excelerated its speed and was fast closing the gap between us.” (5-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H332-360) “I looked back to see how close the President’s car was in making the turn…we were probably, oh, I would say, several car lengths ahead of it...so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were about five minutes away. And it seemed like almost instantly after that the first shot was heard…I just said “What’s that?” And turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction…Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said “Let’s get out of here” and looked back all the way back to where the President’s car was, and I noticed some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.” (8-26-64 and 9-24-64 interviews with William Manchester, as represented in The Death of a President, 1967) (On the first shot) "Most of the hunters in the motorcade--Sorrels, Connally, Yarborough, Gonzalez, Albert Thomas--instinctively identified it as rifle fire." (Notes of an HSCA investigator on a 3-15-78 interview with Sorrels, as found in the Malcolm Blunt Archives) "Shots sounded like gunfire. Didn't sound like came from bldg but from North slope of Elm. Heard 3 shots all tog" 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

(Notes of an HSCA investigator on a 3-15-78 interview with Sorrels, as found in the Malcolm Blunt Archives) "Shots sounded like gunfire. Didn't sound like came from bldg but from North slope of Elm. Heard 3 shots all tog" 

I guess this is from what Bart Kamp found in Uncle Malcom's archives?

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I guess this is from what Bart Kamp found in Uncle Malcom's archives?

I am fairly certain that any reference on my website to the Malcolm Blunt Archives is a reference to the materials Malcolm provided Bart so he could put them online. IOW, if you're looking for the original of something I mention as coming from the Malcolm Blunt Archives, you can probably find it on the Dealey Plaza UK website, where Malcolm's materials can be accessed. 

P.S. I'm sorry if that sounded vague. Perhaps some backstory is needed. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a Malcolm Blunt Archives, as an Archives is normally understood. That is, there was no place you could go and talk to a librarian and have her retrieve something, or whatever. What there was was dozens of boxes filled with papers that Malcolm had collected over the years from his many trips to the archives, plus some boxes of videotapes he'd collected and so on. At a certain point he realized he needed to do something with this stuff before he got too old and it all ended up in the trash. So, if memory serves, he donated his materials to the Assassination Archives and Research Center, which in turn hired Bart, for a nominal fee, to scan and place it online. Now I could be wrong. Perhaps he gave it to Dealey Plaza UK and they asked the AARC to chip in or something. But the bottom line is that Malcolm's papers were made available to us all through a group effort. And that is to be commended.

This brings up another point. While much is made of the government's concealing records, and the likes of CBS and NBC hoarding their materials, one rarely hears any appreciation expressed for those who have devoted their time and money to sharing materials. For example, Rex Bradford. I'd bet half the people on this website have no idea who he is, and yet he is the creator of both the History Matters and Mary Ferrell Foundation websites, and has overseen the scanning and uploading of millions of pages of records. Or what about Oliver Curme, who gave Mary Ferrell a cool million for her collection and then turned around and hired Rex to put it up online? I mean, how many people even know his name? Or what about the people at Hood College, such as Clay Ogilvie, who scanned Harold Weisberg's archives and put them online? None of these people had to do these things. And yet they did. Because they thought it was the right thing to do, IMO. 

Edited February 24 by Pat Speer

[Ron Bulman]

27 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I am fairly certain that any reference on my website to the Malcolm Blunt Archives is a reference to the materials Malcolm provided Bart so he could put them online. IOW, if you're looking for the original of something I mention as coming from the Malcolm Blunt Archives, you can probably find it on the Dealey Plaza UK website, where Malcolm's materials can be accessed. 

Pat, I wasn't questioning your source.  Just noting Barts role in exposing us all to Uncle Malcom's work.  Thanks for your original post regarding this, it was informative, to me at least.

[Chris Bristow]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:07 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

Sources for the Hargis, Sorrels, Lawson, Ellis, and Chaney statements, please.llk

The problem is, you can't "put alteration aside." 

I believe it was in JFK Horsemen (sorry, I don't have the link offhand) where one of the motorcycle officers described Hargis as running between the stoppedkkk limo and the follow-up car. The limo may have taken off in that space, but it would have delayed the follow-up car another second or two. (I wonder if anyone who saw the "other" Z film ever described this?)

I put alteration aside just to make a point about the, imo, impossible timing of Chaney's ride forward. If there was no limo stop removed the timing is even more problematic.
   While taking out a limo stop is the hardest and most difficult alteration to achieve I still think it was done based on the 4 cops testimony about it fully stopping or almost  stopping.
 I have to search for all the relevant statements again because it has been some years since I researched the issue. Several of them testified to the WC more than once and some gave interviews to journalists. I have found testimony in volumes 3,4 and 7 So far. I found Sorrels saying "Get out of here" but not specifically about going to Parkland.
  Starves Ellis made his comment in an interview. He said the motorcade came to a full stop and he turned around and rode back and became part of the Chaney Curry exchange. But he tended to put himself at the center of his stories which makes me have some doubt about the details of his account. I will look for the interview.
   Hargis' account is in his WC testimony. He mentions Chaney's ride forward in his testimony in vol 4 pg 294.

Lawson says in vol 4 pg 353 that he heard a radio message saying "We should get to the nearest hospital" as he saw Clint Hill on the back of the limo. A few sentences later he is asked what the lead car was doing at the time and he mentions the bike cop who pulled forward to inform them. He  seems to be giving a timeline and then says the limo jumped forward while still a good distance behind them. That would be in the plaza before the limo caught them in the underpass.  
 That is all I have found so far. 
  I have heard the version where Hargis runs between the limo and follow up car. Only If the limo stopped would this be possible. Other wise I doubt Hargis would step in front of the follow up car and cause a delay for the SS officers trying to get LBJ out of the plaza as quickly as they could.
 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

20 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

I put alteration aside just to make a point about the, imo, impossible timing of Chaney's ride forward. If there was no limo stop removed the timing is even more problematic.
   While taking out a limo stop is the hardest and most difficult alteration to achieve I still think it was done based on the 4 cops testimony about it fully stopping or almost  stopping.
 I have to search for all the relevant statements again because it has been some years since I researched the issue. Several of them testified to the WC more than once and some gave interviews to journalists. I have found testimony in volumes 3,4 and 7 So far. I found Sorrels saying "Get out of here" but not specifically about going to Parkland.
  Starves Ellis made his comment in an interview. He said the motorcade came to a full stop and he turned around and rode back and became part of the Chaney Curry exchange. But he tended to put himself at the center of his stories which makes me have some doubt about the details of his account. I will look for the interview.
   Hargis' account is in his WC testimony. He mentions Chaney's ride forward in his testimony in vol 4 pg 294.

Lawson says in vol 4 pg 353 that he heard a radio message saying "We should get to the nearest hospital" as he saw Clint Hill on the back of the limo. A few sentences later he is asked what the lead car was doing at the time and he mentions the bike cop who pulled forward to inform them. He  seems to be giving a timeline and then says the limo jumped forward while still a good distance behind them. That would be in the plaza before the limo caught them in the underpass.  
 That is all I have found so far. 
  I have heard the version where Hargis runs between the limo and follow up car. Only If the limo stopped would this be possible. Other wise I doubt Hargis would step in front of the follow up car and cause a delay for the SS officers trying to get LBJ out of the plaza as quickly as they could.
 

Did Ellis say that the motorcade stopped briefly on the on-ramp? 

If yes then he is witness No4 to say so.

[Chris Bristow]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:17 AM, Pat Speer said:

You are correct in that no way in heck did the limo stop on the on-ramp. My understanding of the story was that the limo raced past Curry and he wasn't sure what happened. And that Chaney caught up to him on the on-ramp and told him for a fact that the President was shot, and that Chaney, along with Jackson and I believe Martin then raced on up ahead and led the limo to Parkland. To my understanding this exchange between Chaney and Curry took but a few seconds. (I don't think they even stopped.) 

But if you have exact quotes from Mack claiming the limo came to a dead stop, and exact quotes from Curry claiming they stopped before they even reached the underpass, now that would be interesting. (I'm not sure this would even make sense seeing as Curry was already past the grassy knoll when the shots rang out and but a few seconds from the railroad bridge." 

The thought occurs that some witnesses used words like "plaza" and people assumed this meant east of the railroad bridge, while they may have meant east of the freeway. This kind of imprecision is evident all throughout this case. Such as when people say "occipital" or "firecracker."

I tend to agree the limo probably did not stop on the onramp. But if it didn't there is no way for Chaney to catch up to it unless he chased it down the freeway for quite  a ways. The McIntyre photo supposedly shows Chaney in the underpass some 800 ft behind the limo as it approaches the onramp. The Bell film shows the LBJ's car and his SS car moving towards the underpass and Chaney is not in the picture.  Chaney either spoke to Curry in the plaza or he pulled up to Curry well after they entered the Stemmons. The latter does not make much sense to me.
  I don't think Curry said they completely stopped in the plaza. If Chaney caught up to him in the plaza maybe they were both just going very slow. If Curry was about 125 ft in front of the limo at the head shot then he was 100 ft away from the underpass. If Curry was crawling along very slowly it might all make sense. But then again Altgens 7 is about 4 seconds after the head shot and does not show Chaney. It is all very weird.
Curry's timeline puts the Chaney event east of the underpass. The Bell film and McIntyre photo make it impossible for the meeting to have happened west of the underpass, unless it happened way down the Stemons freeway I have to look again at Lawsons and Sorrels accounts but I think their timelines also put the event east of the underpass. 
 

[Chris Bristow]

23 minutes ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Did Ellis say that the motorcade stopped briefly on the on-ramp? 

If yes then he is witness No4 to say so.

I don't remember Ellis saying that. Do you have a reference for Earle Browns statement? I do remember Hoffman saying the limo saying took a long time to appear on the onramp below him indicating it might have stopped.

[Chris Bristow]

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

The photo I found in Groden's book is actually Altgens 7.  It's clear the limo has taken off after it's stop or near stop.  Hill is all the way on the bumper step and Jackie is starting to climb onto the trunk.  It does appear the brake lights on the lead car are on, compared to the darkness of those on the limo.  It seems they stopped or slowed way down.  After they heard shots?  Or a radio report by Kellerman?  Probably trying to see what was going on behind them before going under the RR overpass/starting into the curve of the entrance ramp?  IDK, make sense?

If the Z film is unaltered then the limo position in Altgens 7 shows it was taken 4 to 5 seconds after the head shot. The limo would only be 4 seconds away from the overpass in Altgens 7. If all that is correct where is Chaney?   Chaney would not have enough time to catch Curry and then disappear in 4 seconds and he would not have enough time to have his meeting with Curry after Altgens 7.
   Maybe the limo really did stop on the onramp but that is hard to believe unless it was because Jackie did try to jump out. Maybe Mack's version of them stopping because Greer needed directions and to verify if there were injuries was coverup for Jackie's sake.  
  

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I don't remember Ellis saying that. Do you have a reference for Earle Browns statement? I do remember Hoffman saying the limo saying took a long time to appear on the onramp below him indicating it might have stopped.

Earle Brown's statement was to Mack i think. Any  search will find it.

Hoffman said that Queen Mary stopped below him & turned its light signals off.

[Tony Krome]

Curry, Chaney and Jackson all saying the same thing;

https://jacks.forumotion.com/t50-chaney-talks-to-curry

 

Edited February 25 by Tony Krome

[Pete Mellor]

On 2/24/2024 at 4:54 AM, Pat Speer said:

P.S. I'm sorry if that sounded vague. Perhaps some backstory is needed. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a Malcolm Blunt Archives, as an Archives is normally understood. That is, there was no place you could go and talk to a librarian and have her retrieve something, or whatever. What there was was dozens of boxes filled with papers that Malcolm had collected over the years from his many trips to the archives, plus some boxes of videotapes he'd collected and so on. At a certain point he realized he needed to do something with this stuff before he got too old and it all ended up in the trash. So, if memory serves, he donated his materials to the Assassination Archives and Research Center, which in turn hired Bart, for a nominal fee, to scan and place it online. Now I could be wrong. Perhaps he gave it to Dealey Plaza UK and they asked the AARC to chip in or something. But the bottom line is that Malcolm's papers were made available to us all through a group effort. And that is to be commended.

Pat,  Indeed, not an Archive in the true sense of the word.  Malcolm had his massive stash of papers in filing cabinets and boxes in a location close to his home that Bart was introduced to when he visited Malcolm in Gloucester.  I think it was Bart who insisted that instead of languishing unseen this treasure-trove should be digitised and put on-line for JFKA researchers to access.  Which is what he undertook over the following years, loading these docs onto Dealey Plaza U.K.'s website.

Also in Malcolm's possession was Harrison Livingstone's research papers, (if memory serves the two had worked together at some point in time) & the intention was to put these in a shipping container & send it back to the States, possibly for the A.A.R.C.  I'm not certain of these details & have asked Bart to clarify if & when Livingstone's archive was sent back across the pond.  I know of nobody hiring Bart for his tireless efforts on this project, but again I'm not certain.  However, massive kudos to Uncle Malcolm for all his time spent in the U.S. researching this case, and Bart for the years spent loading this goldmine onto D.P.U.K.'s pages!