My New Book, A Heritage of Nonsense: Jim Garrison's Tales of Mystery and Imagination

[Jonathan Cohen]

32 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

I asked Mr. Litwin a few weeks ago if he had ever contracted with any government-affiliated agencies to promote public criticism of Warren Commission debunkers, but he never answered my question.

So what? That hardly allows you to imply that he has, or is presently doing so.

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

ignores the fact that there was-- and still is-- an organized, heavily-funded psy op to promote Allen Dulles's "Lone Nut" WCR narrative about the conspiracy to murder John F. Kennedy.

W. that's total garbage BS! Whose funding this? You have no idea whose funding anything!

If you're going back to government  suppression of the JFK files. The government can do that very cheaply.

But when you use the phrase "heavily funded", you seem to be implying private interests and if so, who are they?

Let's dissolve your myths. Please answer

1)W. Do you actually believe that people in the present government 60 years later know who killed JFK?

2)Whose threatened? Do you honestly think the World superpower is going to dismantle their Intelligence?

3)What is the worst that could happen? Since nobody in the present government was there on the 60's. Why would there be anything other than probably very innocent bureaucrats being fired and a rearrangement of the lounge chair seats?

 

In regard to what Pat's saying. There's a territorial issue going on about Litwin, who at least from what I've seen has been sort of silently trolling around here for years. And now he's actually engaging.

Unfortunately there's sort of an extensive  JFKA conspiracy buffet of stories, witnesses ,conspiracy superheroes, and super authors and I've seen a lack of critical thinking here, so that it's easier to just order the whole menu and stubbornly defend it,  rather than repudiating any of it, or it's sources, and it's left us with a lot of dogma.  I think there are a number of relatively new people here who are open to the truth wherever it leads. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

 

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

C'mon, Pat.

If the CIA Mockingbird establishment has invested so much money (since the 1950s) in mainstream media propaganda, are we supposed to believe that they wouldn't spend money on 21st century internet propagandists?

That concept makes no sense at all-- especially in an era when so many people are getting their "news" and information from internet sources.

One thing that I realized, while reading about CIA psy ops in books by Fletcher Prouty, David Talbott, Stephen Kinzer, et.al., is how diabolically clever Allen Dulles, Frank Wisner, Phillip Graham, Edward Lansdale, et.al., were in matters of propaganda psy ops.

Those guys were brilliant, to begin with, but they were also remarkably prescient about propaganda-- going back to their WWII days in the OSS.

I think "propaganda" if you will has been mainstreamed, and is now just a part of everyday life in the good ole USA. And probably everywhere else. I mean, I think we both grew up in an era where we were told to get under our desks if a bomb was dropped, and told we needed to fight in Vietnam so we wouldn't be fighting over here, etc. We were propagandized as school kids and it has never really let up. 

My point is that the JFK ass is a minor blip to the people engaged in the battle for our hearts and minds. Rightly or wrongly, they are more concerned with fighting disinformation on Covid, Ukraine, Gaza, January 6, etc. 

Well, that's what they call it, anyhow. "Fighting disinformation." To those disagreeing with their position, of course, it is "Spreading Propaganda."

Still, I don't think we can go back. Not with an internet filled with all kinds of misinformation and disinformation. I mean we can't have the kiddos reading fake messages from Taylor Swift in which she tells young girls to kill their parents, or whatever. And we can't have Russian or Chinese bots telling grandma that Drano cures cancer. Someone has to police this stuff. The question is who and to what extent. 

[W. Niederhut]

21 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

W. that's total garbage BS! Whose funding this? You have no idea whose funding anything!

If you're going back to government  suppression of the JFK files. The government can do that very cheaply.

But when you use the phrase "heavily funded", you seem to be implying private interests and if so, who are they?

Let's dissolve your myths. Please answer

1)W. Do you actually believe that people in the present government 60 years later know who killed JFK?

2)Whose threatened? Do you honestly think the World superpower is going to dismantle their Intelligence?

3)What is the worst that could happen? Since nobody in the present government was there on the 60's. Why would there be anything other than probably very innocent bureaucrats being fired and a rearrangement of the lounge chair seats?

 

In regard to what Pat's saying. There's a territorial issue going on about Litwin, who at least from what I've seen has been sort of silently trolling around here for years. And now he's actually engaging.

Unfortunately there's sort of an extensive  JFKA conspiracy buffet of stories, witnesses ,conspiracy superheroes, and super authors and I've seen a lack of critical thinking here, so that it's easier to just order the whole menu and stubbornly defend it,  rather than repudiating any of it, or it's sources, and it's left us with a lot of dogma.  I think there are a number of relatively new people here who are open to the truth wherever it leads. 

 

 

 

 

Kirk,

     Are you familiar with William Colby's Church Committee testimony, and Carl Bernstein's famous Rolling Stone article about CIA Operation Mockingbird?

      The CIA has had ample funding sources, and shell companies, for decades.

       In more recent history, Udo Ulfkotte documented the CIA's mainstream media propaganda ops in his 2014 opus, Presstitutes.

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

Dr. N., you are derailing..., it was about the here and now, within the JFKA subject, on the EF and in books, and about certain members. 

So, again I ask you : who?

We all know the CIA is still up and running, no dispute there... c´mon. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 minute ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Dr. N., you are derailing..., it was about the here and now, within the JFKA subject, on the EF and in books, and about certain members. 

So, again I ask you : who?

We all know the CIA is still up and running, no dispute there... c´mon. 

Huh?

Derailing what?

Did you read the WaPo "review" of JFK Revisited by Mr. Litwin's associate, Alecia P. Long?

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jonathan,

     Do you deny that CIA-affiliated propagandists have been active in the U.S. mainstream media, and on social media?

     Was William Colby lying to the Church Committee about CIA Operation Mockingbird?

     How about John McAdams?

 

     

W.If the CIA Mockingbird establishment has invested so much money (since the 1950s) in mainstream media propaganda, are we supposed to believe that they wouldn't spend money on 21st century internet propagandists?

 

W. And that was 50 years ago, before you even thought there was a conspiracy, right?

W. Are you familiar with William Colby's Church Committee testimony, and Carl Bernstein's famous Rolling Stone article about CIA Operation Mockingbird?

 Dude, I was there way back then either listening to Colby live or in a news wrap up that night. W. and I did read Bernstien's RS article and I do know how Colby died..

W. Are you ever going to answer any of my questions?

Now relax and listen. No offense.You're obsession with "operation mockingbird" is so out of date, all that remains of it is a dog whistle for Maga!

Do you honestly think the CIA has ever had 1000th the ability to influence large numbers of the public as currently Elon Musk and Mark  Zuckerberg has?

Well think about it.

****

W. while orchestrating smear campaigns against the honest investigators, attorneys, and film makers who have exposed their fraudulence-- e.g., Jim Garrison, Fletcher Prouty, Oliver Stone, James DiEugenio, et.al.

I don't think it's my place to argue "honesty". But all these "conspiracy superheroes" are just people W. They make mistakes. I disagree a little to a lot with  them and in some areas I think some have exercised really bad judgment, which doesn't negate their accomplishments..

 

W. As an Orthodox Christian, I have a deeply-rooted aversion to dishonesty and the bearing of false witness. 

Ok, no offense but  I find that sort of funny!

W.   Litwin is selling a false, revisionist history of an honest, conscientious man -- one of the true heroes of the JFKA Truth movement, along with Fletcher Prouty and Oliver Stone, whose reputations have been similarly impugned by CIA-funded propagandists during the past 32 years.  It's disgraceful.

-   You seem to be complicit in that sordid CIA endeavor.

-W. 60 years if this Mockingbird propaganda is, frankly, more than I can stomach-- especially on the Education Forum.

uhhh yeah, I think we know.

W. Geez...more guano from Operation Mockingbird Redux!

 Fred Litwin's sales pitch to smear Jim Garrison is merely the latest example of this 60 year CIA-funded public relations scam.

W. These are absurd. You are a broken record.

W. Is everybody who disagrees with you CIA?  I sense that. You seem intent on enforcing complete ideological hegemony. Di Eugenio was  doing that for years not only about who killed JFK but his entire political philosophy. To make such accusations is  simply not your job as moderator.

 

W. As for my volunteer status as a moderator, I'd prefer to be a regular member who is at liberty to tell the truth without worrying about offending delusional people.

W. Honestly I haven't noticed you've curtailed your tendencies as a moderator at all.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Fred Litwin's sales pitch to smear Jim Garrison is merely the latest example of this 60 year CIA-funded public relations scam.

Another explanation is that he is a private researcher who has studied the case extensively and came to the conclusion (all on his own) that Jim Garrison was borderline nuts. If you have any proof (not insinuations) of a CIA affiliation for Litwin or any of the LNs here post it. If you have no such proof, you should retract the statement-especially considering you are a "moderator."

[Joe Bauer]

13 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Dude, I was there way back then either listening to Colby live or in a news wrap up that night. W. and I did read Bernstien's RS article and I do know how Colby died..

How did Colby die?

[Bill Brown]

 

Once again, I wonder if ANY member here can post ANY document created at ANY time BEFORE Cherami's death, re: supposed foreknowledge of the assassination in Dallas.

Betcha can't.

There is NOTHING from Fruge or Weiss until once Cherami had passed away.  This is a fact.

There is no proof that Cherami made any claims about what was supposedly about to happen in Dallas.

 

[Fred Litwin]

Cherami didn't say one word about the supposed conspiracy from the time they took her to Houston in November 1963 to when she died in September 1965. She had lots of time to tell all sorts of people but no one came forward with such a story.

fred

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

How did Colby die?

Joe,

     I hate to impugn the reputation of a fellow liberal, but Kirk Gallaway has always been shockingly naive about Operation Mockingbird and the vast financial resources of the CIA.  Nobody's perfect.

     Allen Dulles was quite the Wall Street maven.   Among other CIA front corporations, Dulles and his boys, including GHWB, were involved with Dresser Industries and Zapata Oil (which later became Pennzoil.)

      The CIA was never short of cash or front corporations.  And they have been deeply involved with U.S. (and European) media corporations and moguls since the late 1940s-- e.g., Henry Luce, William S. Paley, Phillip & Katherine Graham, et.al.  Udo Ulfkotte documented the European CIA media issues, before his untimely death.

      And, as Colby confessed to Congress, (before his strange, untimely death in a fishing accident) the CIA was funding more than 400 contract journalists in the U.S. mainstream media in the 60s and 70s.  Not to mention academicians.

      In more recent history, does Kirk Gallaway know that the CIA signed a $600 million dollar contract with Jeff Bezos, after Bezos acquired the Washington Post?

      Given their historic enmeshment with the mainstream media, does any rational person really imagine that the CIA wouldn't invest in 21st century internet propaganda?

       Let's get real guys.  This is the Education Forum.

[Pat Speer]

13 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Joe,

     I hate to impugn the reputation of a fellow liberal, but Kirk Gallaway has always been shockingly naive about Operation Mockingbird and the vast financial resources of the CIA.  Nobody's perfect.

     Allen Dulles was quite the Wall Street maven.   Among other CIA front corporations, Dulles and his boys, including GHWB, were involved with Dresser Industries and Zapata Oil (which later became Pennzoil.)

      The CIA was never short of cash or front corporations.  And they have been deeply involved with U.S. (and European) media corporations and moguls since the late 1940s-- e.g., Henry Luce, William S. Paley, Phillip & Katherine Graham, et.al.  Udo Ulfkotte documented the European CIA media issues, before his untimely death.

      And, as Colby confessed to Congress, (before his strange, untimely death in a fishing accident) the CIA was funding more than 400 contract journalists in the U.S. mainstream media in the 60s and 70s.  Not to mention academicians.

      In more recent history, does Kirk Gallaway know that the CIA signed a $600 million dollar contract with Jeff Bezos, after Bezos acquired the Washington Post?

      Given their historic enmeshment with the mainstream media, does any rational person really imagine that the CIA wouldn't invest in 21st century internet propaganda?

       Let's get real guys.  This is the Education Forum.

I think I may have brought this up before, but perhaps the biggest government propaganda blitz in U.S. history took place in World War 1, when there was no CIA, let alone a mockingbird. 

I seem to remember an expose some time back about the Pentagon's own propaganda efforts, which dwarfed the CIA's efforts during the Vietnam war. 

In short, I think it's naive to always be pointing at the CIA, when there are so many other groups, both public and private, engaged in a battle for our hearts and minds. 

[W. Niederhut]

39 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I think I may have brought this up before, but perhaps the biggest government propaganda blitz in U.S. history took place in World War 1, when there was no CIA, let alone a mockingbird. 

I seem to remember an expose some time back about the Pentagon's own propaganda efforts, which dwarfed the CIA's efforts during the Vietnam war. 

In short, I think it's naive to always be pointing at the CIA, when there are so many other groups, both public and private, engaged in a battle for our hearts and minds. 

It's not naive at all, Pat.  Here are some standard references people should read.

For starters, have you read Edward Bernay's classic Propaganda text?  (It was Joseph Goebbels' favorite book.)

Propaganda: Edward Bernays, Mark Crispin Miller: 8601404243394: Amazon.com: Books

You are correct about Edward Bernays and Woodrow Wilson's CPI WWI propaganda blitz in 1917, but Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Phillip Graham, et.al., took mass media propaganda to a whole new level in the U.S. with their Mighty Wurlitzer Mockingbird ops.

The Mighty Wurlitzer: How the CIA Played America: Wilford, Hugh: 9780674032569: Amazon.com: Books

Then there is Carl Bernstein's famous 1977 essay on Mockingbird.

The CIA And The Media — Carl Bernstein

The German journalist, Udo Ulfkotte, published a more recent update on the pervasive involvement of the CIA in the European mass media, prior to his untimely death.

Presstitutes Embedded in the Pay of the CIA: A Confession from the Profession - Kindle edition by Ulfkotte, Udo, Leonard, John-Paul, Schlademan, Andrew. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

[Pat Speer]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

It's not naive at all, Pat.  Here are some standard references people should read.

For starters, have you read Edward Bernay's classic Propaganda text?  (It was Joseph Goebbels' favorite book.)

Propaganda: Edward Bernays, Mark Crispin Miller: 8601404243394: Amazon.com: Books

You are correct about Edward Bernays and Woodrow Wilson's CPI WWI propaganda blitz in 1917, but Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles, Phillip Graham, et.al., took mass media propaganda to a whole new level in the U.S. with their Mighty Wurlitzer Mockingbird ops.

The Mighty Wurlitzer: How the CIA Played America: Wilford, Hugh: 9780674032569: Amazon.com: Books

Then there is Carl Bernstein's famous 1977 essay on Mockingbird.

The CIA And The Media — Carl Bernstein

The German journalist, Udo Ulfkotte, published a more recent update on the pervasive involvement of the CIA in the European mass media, prior to his untimely death.

Presstitutes Embedded in the Pay of the CIA: A Confession from the Profession - Kindle edition by Ulfkotte, Udo, Leonard, John-Paul, Schlademan, Andrew. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

I read all of that decades ago. At the time the CIA was the big boogeyman. Since that time, however, people like John Newman have turned a lot of their attention towards the Pentagon, and I suspect he's on to something.