Oswald Or Not ?

[Thomas Graves]

Bill:

Stop trying to break the thread.Thank you.

No one is talking about Moorman, stockade fences or cops...???????

B

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Bernice,

I agree with you.

FWIW, Thomas

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[Robin Unger]

Can someone refresh my recollection when the photo was taken?

Weaver photo:

Credit: Bernice

[Tim Gratz]

Thanks, Robin. Obviously only a minute or two before the bullets started!

[Allan Eaglesham]

Duncan:

Is anything present around the "sniper's nest" in the Weaver frame that isn't present also in this photograph by Jack Kimbrough, taken about 25 minutes later? Please take into consideration the different points of view; Kimbrough was much closer to the TSBD and slightly to the west of where Weaver was.

Allan

Edit: I have been informed by Robin Unger that the frame on the left is Hughes not Weaver. Thanks, Robin.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Allan Eaglesham

[Allan Eaglesham]

Duncan:

Is anything present around the "sniper's nest" in the Weaver frame that isn't present also in this photograph by Jack Kimbrough, taken about 25 minutes later? Please take into consideration the different points of view; Kimbrough was much closer to the TSBD and slightly to the west of where Weaver was.

Allan

Duncan:

Is anything present around the "sniper's nest" in the Weaver frame that isn't present also in this photograph by Jack Kimbrough, taken about 25 minutes later? Please take into consideration the different points of view; Kimbrough was much closer to the TSBD and slightly to the west of where Weaver was.

Allan

Hi Allan..Yes the difference is that there is no one at the window in the Jack Kimbrough photograph.

I did a very quick enhancement which shows no one there,just the boxes,and a light bulb shining above on the ceiling.

Duncan

Duncan:

On what basis is this enhanced? Enlarged yes, but doesn't "enhanced" mean that things are seen more clearly?

I don't think that is a light bulb -- rather it's the sun striking the "wall" of book cartons behind the "rifle rest" boxes -- please see below. If it were a light bulb, from that angle it would be way back within in the book depository and much smaller in size.

Allan

PS Although the "rifle-rest" boxes were moved before the photograph below was taken, the wall of book cartons behind is unaltered.

[Allan Eaglesham]

Allan,

It was a very quick job for demonstration purposes only,just blown up and sharpened slightly so that anyone looking could have a closer view.You may be right about the sun striking the book cartons,although my main point was to show that no one was there.I think you may be looking at the comparison with a view that the figure i believe i have shown is just the sunlight on the book cartons?

Duncan

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Duncan:

I didn't mean anything specific other than that the spot is not an electric light bulb.

I see only a blurred image in your enhanced graphics. It could be a figure -- it could be a lot of things -- but comparison with the Kimbrough photograph suggests that what may be a figure is actually light and shadow. It is important to understand the carton arrangement around the window and the shadow pattern.

Can you provide an outline of what you see as a person?

Thank you.

Allan

[Allan Eaglesham]

Allan,

Here's an outlined version of what i see.I do appreciate and understand the point you make.

Duncan

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Duncan:

Thank you -- that helps a lot.

I believe that the reason you don't see a figure in the Kibrough photograph is that it is too clear. In other words, your figure results from light and shadows.

If you disagree with me on that, please see the composite below. They show that the figure you outlined was diminutive -- about three feet tall.

Allan

[Allan Eaglesham]

Allan,

I disagree on the presumption that this figure could and probably was in a kneeling down position.I believe that any shooter would almost certainly be in a low down position before and during firing,and possibly on their kness to avoid being seen.I have used your image to make my point,ie i have cut off your simulated shooter just below the knees and moved him in to a more central position as we see in the frames.

Duncan

Duncan:

By "diminutive" I meant in all respects, not just height.

Please take a look at the sketch. It is fairly closely to scale. Please compare the size of the man in the sketch with the man in your figure. Also please see what little legroom there would be for a man on his knees in the location of your figure.

Allan

[Frank Agbat]

Duncan:

By "diminutive" I meant in all respects, not just height.

Please take a look at the sketch. It is fairly closely to scale. Please compare the size of the man in the sketch with the man in your figure. Also please see what little legroom there would be for a man on his knees in the location of your figure.

Allan

Perhaps of equal importance, consider the sight lines from the location of the photographer and the supposed location of Oswald as outlined by Allan. If the shooter was in the "sniper pose" as the picture was snapped, most of him would be hidden from a picture taken from the angle in question. I would be more conviced if the image showed someone peering around the corner of the window (lower/right area).

The Weaver frame was not taken from an angle perpendicular to the face of the TSBD. The angle from which it was taken and the wall of the building obscures an additional portion of the "nest" area that is behind the wall.

Consider:

Red area = sight-line obscured area for a straight-on picture.

Yellow area = additional area sight-line obscured due to the angle of the Weaver frame.

I don't mean to discourage you, but I don't believe that there is an actual figure evident in the enlarged/enhanced photos you have posted.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Allan,

Here's an outlined version of what i see.I do appreciate and understand the point you make.

Duncan

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Duncan:

Thank you -- that helps a lot.

If you disagree with me on that, please see the composite below. They show that the figure you outlined was diminutive -- about three feet tall.

Allan

Alan, could you elaborate on your statement that the figure outlined is diminutive. Like you, I am trying to figure out whether the figure outlined could be a man. I am trying to do a thought experiment and would appreciate your comments. I come up with this: I am 5' 11" in height. From my knee to the ground measures 1' 9" (21"). It is roughly 17' from the TSBD floor to the bottom of the window sill (correct?). If I was kneeling in the window I calculate there would 3' 2" of me below the window sill and 2' 9" of me above it. so 2' 9" of me would be visible to the outside world.

I do not know how high the window was raised. Presumably I would not appear diminutive by your calculations, even after allowance for Weaver's upward angle of view. Can you calculate (roughly) how tall I would appear to Weaver if I was in the window when Weaver took this photo?

Thank you.

[Allan Eaglesham]

I reckon that the lower edge of the open window was about 3 ft* from the floor. Also the window breadth was about two and a half feet. Therefore, an average man at that window would occupy more than half of the area visible from outside (see the photograph, bearing in mind that the window sill on the fifth floor is higher than on the sixth). In my opinion, Duncan's outline is consistent with the stature of a child, not of a man, even if he were on his knees.

Allan

*Raymond, the window sill is about 13-14 inches from the floor.

[Frank Agbat]

Allan,Frank,Raymond

I have tried the same thing myself.

What everyone seems to be getting wrong is the fact that this enhancement was produced from the Jack Weaver photograph which was taken probaly around 30 seconds before the limo even turned on to Elm Street.( If anyone can give an exact time,pleas supply).

The figure would probably not i suspect have been in his firing position his with rifle hanging out of the window at this point in time,as this surely would have been too risky until the limo got on to Elm.He was probably standing a little further back too which must be considered in the overall equation.Anyway,i have scaled the outside window view with the inside window view which Allan supplied.It's as exact as i can get it.

Duncan

First off, I STILL don't see anything resembling a figure. All I see is pixel hash, etc. Honestly, I think you're seeing things that aren't there. A better scan of this picture would probably help -- the ones that are widely available contain a noticeable vertical crosshatch pattern which, not surprisingly, shows up on the enlagements. Perhaps someone knows a location for a high-res scan or can direct us to the right person. I don't know the history of this particular picture, so I don't know what has or hasn't survived.

Secondly, I do understand the timing of this picture. My point was that a savvy 6th floor assassin would work hard not to be visible at all *especially* as the motorcade moved *toward* him. I would not expect the assassin to be standing in front of the window. As I said, at the most, a very subtle peek from the "shooting position". I would expect to, at best, see a partial head in the lower right.

Thirdly, the size issue is important. (size matters?) Anyway... Your "figure" barely makes it up to the first crossmember of the window, while the kneeling shooter in the re-creation is substantially taller. The known figure on the 5th floor was kneeling and leaning on the window sill. There isn't enough room on the 6th floor with the boxes to assume this position and remain inside... This would make the "figure" short (4-foot something) AND kneeling - probably at an angle.

[Allan Eaglesham]

I reckon that the lower edge of the open window was about 3 ft* from the floor. Also the window breadth was about two and a half feet. Therefore, an average man at that window would occupy more than half of the area visible from outside (see the photograph, bearing in mind that the window sill on the fifth floor is higher than on the sixth). In my opinion, Duncan's outline is consistent with the stature of a child, not of a man, even if he were on his knees.

Allan

*Raymond, the window sill is about 13-14 inches from the floor.

Allan and Frank,

The recreation Dillard photograph you posted (Allan) shows 2 men leaning out of the window simply for recreation purposes.In the original Dillard photograph the 2 men can barely be seen and are in a further back position noticeable only by enhancement,and similar in size to the debated subject.We can not assume that the figure of this study,if it is a figure,is forward and looking out of the window.I believe he is further back,hence the smaller appearance.

Original Dillard crop posted,i don't have a good copy of the original.

Duncan

Duncan:

The space between the brick wall supporting the window sill and the wall of book cartons was about 22 inches. Therefore anyone in the location of your figure was essentially "at" the window.

Allan

Edited January 31, 2006 by Allan Eaglesham

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Allan,

I disagree on the presumption that this figure could and probably was in a kneeling down position.I believe that any shooter would almost certainly be in a low down position before and during firing,and possibly on their kness to avoid being seen.I have used your image to make my point,ie i have cut off your simulated shooter just below the knees and moved him in to a more central position as we see in the frames.

Duncan

Duncan:

By "diminutive" I meant in all respects, not just height.

Please take a look at the sketch. It is fairly closely to scale. Please compare the size of the man in the sketch with the man in your figure. Also please see what little legroom there would be for a man on his knees in the location of your figure.

Allan

"No one could have accurately fired that rifle from the way that they had it jacked up"

Mr. Robert West to Tom Purvis, at the home of Mr. West in Dallas, TX

[Frank Agbat]

Duncan,

Allan is right. There isn't enough depth between the sill and the boxes to create the illusion of a small image.

If I may -- I would suggest that you concentrate your efforts in the lower right (our right as we look at the window) area of the window. In my opinion, if there is a 6th floor west window shooter to be seen, that is where it will be.