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Craig Roberts: Kill Zone


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Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

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Hello Tom

I appreciate your comment which invites me to "not read your posts". I, even with my intellectual shortcomings, somehow managed to figure this out for myself, years ago on another forum.

However, since we unfortunately are both interested it seems, in very similar forum topics, I have chosen not to do this, as I am interested in what is usually some very good input of other forum members. I cannot engage in these threads and simply disregard "your" input, because of the number of posts which you seem to try to force into each thread, which usually are meant to either challenge a response, or by lack of such challenge seem, thru passivity, to accept your ramblings as fact. This in itself isn't particularly bad within itself, but it gives members who are not as conversant with this subject, as are many of the others on this forum, an implication that the more informed members are "in agreement" with some of your decoded "word game" theories, when in fact they not only are not, but are really unsure of what you are attempting to put forth.

So Tom....it appears that I am as stuck to you as flypaper !

Charlie Black

Over two thousand, three hundred posts, in well under two years, and all on this one subject, enough material to fill several books, and yet still we await the final report, and are expected to wade knee deep through "little word games" For gawds sake man come to the point. If indeed you have one...Steve.

The primary point is:

Why not suprise everyone and utilize those intellectual capabilities with which we as the human species were endowed, which includes the capability for deductive reasoning, independent thought process, and research and problem resolution.

Then, when ANYONE claims something, before jumping off into the rabbit hole to follow, find out if the evidence is indicative that:

A. It is actually a rabbit hole

B. Any indication that a rabbit has ever inhabited the hole

C. Any indication of recent inhabitation by a rabbit.

Last time that I checked, no one had even managed to factually resolve the issues of the injuries sustained by JFK.

This however has not prevented many from jumping into rabbit hole:

1. Multiple assassins did it.

2. Body Snatchers did it.

As a general rule one must figure out "how it was did", before they will even come close to resolving exactly who "did it".

Perhaps I just expect too much from the supposedly "intelligent" species which inhabits this little green ball!

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Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange

Yep!

And the world has always need those who walked around with blinders on.

Just keep on believeing the six-groove bullet BS, as well as the sling swivel BS, as well as a host of other such items.

There will always be another grouping of writers who are hocking their JFK assassination COS, and they no doubt will hope that you remain around long enough to contribute to their financial welfare.

"There is a moral obligation to take advantage of all suckers"

Attributed to WC Fields.

He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs

1. I am retired and work only if and when I so desire.

2. If by "provacateurs" you mean someone who likes to deal in fact, Thanks!

Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered.

Hell Jack, anyone can be "ordinary".

Just as most anyone can be lead around by the nose!

Perhaps it is merely some new form of "bi-polar" problem which has yet to be fully recognized and diagnosed.

He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics.

Nope! But certainly smart enough to actually sit down with absolutely recognized experts in ANY of the fields required to piece this puzzle together.

And at least expend the time and effort to acquire and test fire a few of these weapons prior to repeating the frequently repeated BS about them.

As opposed to believing either the BS as fed by the WC or the BS as is continously repeated on this and other JFK assassination forums.

And certainly smart enough to review the FACTS prior to spewing off at the mouth about what a poor shot LHO was, how sorry the Carcano rifle is, how many rifling grooves CE399 actually has, why the sling swivel as seen in the backyard photo's appears to hang down, and a host of other such information which although may seem trivial to you in your research methods, happens to be EEI (essential elements of information) in the schools of which I attended.

He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence".

Actually Jack, he KNOWS that he is the "sole owner" of that information related to the altered survey data which your buddy published in his book long ago and of which many of you CT groupings foamed at the mouth over, claiming that it offered some proof of conspiracy in the actual assassination.

Secondly, unless someone else managed to get to Mr. West, then it is assumed that I am also the "sole owner" of the various survey plats of Dealy Plaza which were created by Mr. West, as well as his survey notes.

Especially since I actually paid Mr. West for them.

His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly

Repetition happens to be at the heart of learning, and despite what you may think, I am aware that a certain element who posts here as well as merely visiting, are getting the information which they may need in order to place most of this into the proper perspective.

You on the other hand appear to be a completely "lost cause" who obviously would not recognize fact, were it to walk up and slap you right in the fact.

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Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange

Yep!

And the world has always need those who walked around with blinders on.

Just keep on believeing the six-groove bullet BS, as well as the sling swivel BS, as well as a host of other such items.

There will always be another grouping of writers who are hocking their JFK assassination COS, and they no doubt will hope that you remain around long enough to contribute to their financial welfare.

"There is a moral obligation to take advantage of all suckers"

Attributed to WC Fields.

He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs

1. I am retired and work only if and when I so desire.

2. If by "provacateurs" you mean someone who likes to deal in fact, Thanks!

Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered.

Hell Jack, anyone can be "ordinary".

Just as most anyone can be lead around by the nose!

Perhaps it is merely some new form of "bi-polar" problem which has yet to be fully recognized and diagnosed.

He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics.

Nope! But certainly smart enough to actually sit down with absolutely recognized experts in ANY of the fields required to piece this puzzle together.

And at least expend the time and effort to acquire and test fire a few of these weapons prior to repeating the frequently repeated BS about them.

As opposed to believing either the BS as fed by the WC or the BS as is continously repeated on this and other JFK assassination forums.

And certainly smart enough to review the FACTS prior to spewing off at the mouth about what a poor shot LHO was, how sorry the Carcano rifle is, how many rifling grooves CE399 actually has, why the sling swivel as seen in the backyard photo's appears to hang down, and a host of other such information which although may seem trivial to you in your research methods, happens to be EEI (essential elements of information) in the schools of which I attended.

He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence".

Actually Jack, he KNOWS that he is the "sole owner" of that information related to the altered survey data which your buddy published in his book long ago and of which many of you CT groupings foamed at the mouth over, claiming that it offered some proof of conspiracy in the actual assassination.

Secondly, unless someone else managed to get to Mr. West, then it is assumed that I am also the "sole owner" of the various survey plats of Dealy Plaza which were created by Mr. West, as well as his survey notes.

Especially since I actually paid Mr. West for them.

His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly

Repetition happens to be at the heart of learning, and despite what you may think, I am aware that a certain element who posts here as well as merely visiting, are getting the information which they may need in order to place most of this into the proper perspective.

You on the other hand appear to be a completely "lost cause" who obviously would not recognize fact, were it to walk up and slap you right in the fact.

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Share on other sites

Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

Let me step in here for a second .... first, one doesn't wear on their head what Tom wears on his without being put together in good ways, psyscologically and physically! FREEING the Oppressed is taken very seriously in certain circles. I've had more than a passing interest in Tom's fraternity both here and abroad. Some of those on the otherside of the Atlantic may not be as aware as those of us here in the States about that fraternity....

Presdient Kennedy for had an affinity for Tom's military fraternity, expanding their capability and usability in ways most will never know. However, one can be assured we are ALL better because of the TOM PURVIS'S of the USArmy Special Forces (Green Beret), in which Tom was a leader of the best of the BEST.

I suspect Tom Purvis as a A-Team Commander [at one time] has forgot more regarding NATO 7.62/6.5mm ball ammunition [for rifles] than many of us knew/ or CLAIM today in knowing. I also won't go into what a HALO (which Tom is) instructor does, rest assured what does happen, DOSEN'T, sitting behind a computer screen....

A few on this board can also recall the dread anticipation knowing someone was going to die in a few moments.

I'm also sure, the Craig Roberts and Carlos Hathcock's of the world, not to mention Marines-RANGERS including LRRP's were instructed in their crafts by the likes of Special Operations Command types, the Tom Purvises if you will. So lighten up.... yes? :)

As far as the 6th floor is concerned, someone shot from that building, Oswald (1or2) or otherwise. Did he or they use a MC, who knows. Which Oswald was used as lackey, or active participant in the assassination? that's up for grabs, someone fired from up there. Can we put Oswald in that window? NO, the DPD can't! Does that mean a Oswald didn't shot, NO! Oswald can't be "excluded"... Answers have to be found elsewhere. Most of what Tom posts are aids, assisting researchers in background information... Primarily leads focused on/in Texas and New Orleans with accompanying history....

My problem reviewing the entire DP assassination scenario focuses on Elm Street. Everything I know about the assassination on Elm Street point to a "3rd" shot that occurs further down Elm Street street. This scenario can't be rectified by DP films, yet, YET based on MWest's survey data provided by Tom Purvis, the "3rd" shot does indeed happen further WEST on Elm Street...

therefore the Zapruder FILM is altered, the question remaining is, WHY?

One might also assume; background data provided by Tom Purvis will assist those that want that question answered. At the least, provide possible motive (willing and not-so-willing possible participants) in the assassination.

Now having said all that, maybe Tom can tell me if he knew a certain S-Major. He was TDY to C' Detachment-5th SOF, Nha Trang, we got banged up in the Central Highlands, we shared a hopital room at the French Hospital in Saigon Aug-Sept '63.

David Healy

Edited by David G. Healy
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Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

Let me step in here for a second .... first, one doesn't wear on their head what Tom wears on his without being put together in good ways, psyscologically and physically! FREEING the Oppressed is taken very seriously in certain circles. I've had more than a passing interest in Tom's fraternity both here and abroad. Some of those on the otherside of the Atlantic may not be as aware as those of us here in the States about that fraternity....

Presdient Kennedy for had an affinity for Tom's military fraternity, expanding their capability and usability in ways most will never know. However, one can be assured we are ALL better because of the TOM PURVIS'S of the USArmy Special Forces (Green Beret), in which Tom was a leader of the best of the BEST.

I suspect Tom Purvis as a A-Team Commander [at one time] has forgot more regarding NATO 7.62/6.5mm ball ammunition [for rifles] than many of us knew/ or CLAIM today in knowing. I also won't go into what a HALO (which Tom is) instructor does, rest assured what does happen, DOSEN'T, sitting behind a computer screen....

A few on this board can also recall the dread anticipation knowing someone was going to die in a few moments.

I'm also sure, the Craig Roberts and Carlos Hathcock's of the world, not to mention Marines-RANGERS including LRRP's were instructed in their crafts by the likes of Special Operations Command types, the Tom Purvises if you will. So lighten up.... yes? :)

As far as the 6th floor is concerned, someone shot from that building, Oswald (1or2) or otherwise. Did he or they use a MC, who knows. Which Oswald was used as lackey, or active participant in the assassination? that's up for grabs, someone fired from up there. Can we put Oswald in that window? NO, the DPD can't! Does that mean a Oswald didn't shot, NO! Oswald can't be "excluded"... Answers have to be found elsewhere. Most of what Tom posts are aids, assisting researchers in background information... Primarily leads focused on/in Texas and New Orleans with accompanying history....

My problem reviewing the entire DP assassination scenario focuses on Elm Street. Everything I know about the assassination on Elm Street point to a "3rd" shot that occurs further down Elm Street street. This scenario can't be rectified by DP films, yet, YET based on MWest's survey data provided by Tom Purvis, the "3rd" shot does indeed happen further WEST on Elm Street...

therefore the Zapruder FILM is altered, the question remaining is, WHY?

One might also assume; background data provided by Tom Purvis will assist those that want that question answered. At the least, provide possible motive (willing and not-so-willing possible participants) in the assassination.

Now having said all that, maybe Tom can tell me if he knew a certain S-Major. He was TDY to C' Detachment-5th SOF, Nha Trang, we got banged up in the Central Highlands, we shared a hopital room at the French Hospital in Saigon Aug-Sept '63.

David Healy

And now I know the question, and the answer is no!

That early in the program, ALL of the SF were TDY.

This is why so many can claim so many tours there.

Tour of duty was a "volunteer" TDY for 6-months. As a TDY assignment, Jump Pay, Combat Pay, and full TDY paid was earned (even though one was provided with food and whatever/wherever he could find to sleep).

Therefore, there was no shortage of volunteers out of SF to serve there as the money was far and above what one could earn anywhere else.

Some even managed to draw a second "incentive" pay which by Army Regulations was illegal. But due to what they were doing and where it was being done at, it was kept relatively quiet.

After the introduction of the first actual Ground Force Combat Troops, (USMC & 173rd Abn Brigade out of Okinawa), it became a 1-year tour of duty and the "volunteer" 6-month tour with TDY Pay was ended.

That is why if one actually encounters one of the "old"/early SF personnel and they speak of their 6 or 7 tours of duty there, that is what they prlmarily speak of.

Few actually served more than two or three full 1-year tours, yet many served multiple 6-month at a time tours only to return to stateside for a couple of months until qualified to return for another 6-month TDY Tour.

The "C" Team is in fact 5th Group Headquarters. Which consists of the Group Commander, Staff, and all of those personnel required to keep the "B" Teams (Company Size Element) functioning. The "A" Teams fell under the command of their specific "B" Team.

The "A"-Team was the basic unit with the 12-man team, lead by as you say, a Captain.

The "best" of the actual Jungle Snipers were routed through our "School of the America's" in Panama. The Jungle Warfare School.

And although I also am a graduate of the Jungle Warfare school, the Phillipine Tracking School was reportedly even better than the Panama School.

Do not get me wrong on the Carlos Hathcock and Craig Roberts as regards their individual shooting skill and ability, which most are quite aware of.

However, they made the mistake, (although one of them qualified the statement) of basing their shooting scenario on the WC's Z312/313 as the last shot sequence.

And in that regards, it would have been quite and achievement in shooting skills to get off the three shots and make even the two hits.

However, one must also place into perspective the considerable difference between shooting mama-san or papa-san of the banks of a rice paddy as they stroll along at an even pace, and the shooting of a laterally moving target across a field of fire with the target moving at varying and unknown speeds and incurring a continual drop in elevation as it moved.

Urban Sniping as opposed to Jungle Sniping are considerably different.

One just may want to take notice of the news programs which continually show our snipers as well as their snipers ON THE ROOFTOPs in Iraq.

Guess why?

Anyone who thinks that they can plan an effective sniper exercise in an area where it is completely undeterminable as to how much interference will be had based on personnell roaming around through the area, personnel viewing the motorcade and blocking the view, potential for motorcycle cops alongside the Presidential Limo blocking the line of sight, etc;. has obviously never even tried to shoot a stray dog or cat inside the city limits.

These are variables which CAN NOT be taken into consideration, and thus anyone who wants to assure a shot, gets high!

Lastly, it is irrelevant as to what if any qualifications which I may have, other than possibly some experience and training in covert operations which may give a slight edge on others who do not understand the fundamentals as to how successful such operations are achieved.

Examples:

LHO's rangfire qualifications are a matter of public record. He entered the USMC firing in the mid to upper ranges of EXPERT when shooting targets at 200 yards and 300 yards from a fixed/stable firing position/platform.

This is not the average "off the street" Joe/Blow shooter and is quite indicative that LHO had rifle marksmanship training prior to entering the USMC.

Throughout his practice fire as well as into his final Rangefire qualification, LHO maintained this "Upper Expert" rating for those stations from 200 to 300 yards.

Had LHO been in the US Army (which does not even fire a 500 yard range qualification test), LHO would have walked away rated in the TOP of the EXPERT qualification.

As it was, two stations so degraded the overall score (average) down to the extent that it made LHO qualify only as a "MARKSMAN" overall.

These two stations consisted of a 500 yard standing/unsupported position in which he barely passed, and another long range firing station in which the wind speeds had increased to more than double and for which LHO (and presumeably everyone else) had no experience shooting under these conditions, and LHO was consistantly adjusting the windage on his sights in attempt to even hit the target.

This firing station he failed.

Now, everyone hears what a "poor" shot LHO was.

Download and copy his range fire practice as well as final Rangfire qualifications and then take them to a USMC Gunnery Instructor and see exactly what he has to say about it.

This is why the USMC Major as well as the Gunney Sgt. who testified before the WC stated the "easy" ability to shoot a target with deadly accuracy at ranges which were less than 100 yards.

They had access to and looked at ALL of the pertinent data as regards the shooting ability of LHO.

Had he been standing in an open cow pasture shooting at a 500 yard target, then it is most unlikely that JFK would have gotten hit even two times.

When firing at targets of 200 yards and 300 yards from a fixed firing position, LHO was deadly accurate. And, he entered the USMC shooting with that ability.

Now, the WC was stuck with somewhat of a problem.

Had they fully elaborated on the 200-yard to 300-yard shooting ability of LHO, as fully demonstrated by his practice as well as final Rangefire Qualifications, it is most unlikely that anyone would have ever fallen for "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Kind of difficult to tell everyone what a great shot this person is and then tell them that, oh by the way, he missed one of these simple shots.

Therefore, the WC had to make it appear that LHO was good enough to get two our of three hits, but not good enough to get three out of three hits.

Quite obviously, they did a good job of doing so!

The absolute best advice that I could offer on the subject matter of the JFK assassination would be to NOT believe anything claimed by anyone.

If you want to know the answer, then research the question completely for yourself, and then seek the advice of multiple experts in the specific field in order to insure that there is some consensus of opinion.

And, when asking the questions of experts, do not "bait" them into hypothetical scenarios which have no basis or foundation in fact other than someone claimed it to be.

Many wish to elaborate on why LHO/the shooter did not take the easy shot as the Presidential Limousine approached the TSDB.

This has been elaborated on multiple and many times:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0451b.htm

All that one has to do is take a good look at this and recall that JBC was sitting directly in front of JFK, and that the top of JFK's head was only a few inches higher than the top of JBC.

Therefore, due to time-of-flight for the bullet and an unestimatable forward speed of the vehicle, one would have to be "guestimating" and aiming at some point on the face/head of JBC and hoping for a near miss over the top of his head to strike the few inches of JFK which would have protruded above the head of JBC.

That would have been one of those miracle shots to pull off.

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis
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Cousin Jethro is an enigma. He claims to believe in the LHO LONE GUNMAN myth, yet

he believes the WC was a coverup and the Zfilm is altered. He believes he is the sole

owner of certain "evidence". He believes he is the sole authority on anything related

to guns and ballistics. He seems to spend an inordinate amout of time on the internet

but is not in the mold of the obvious provocateurs. His writings ramble and are

repititious, repeating the exact same things endlessly. I usually read none of his

messages, because I know I have heard it all before. Strange.

Jack

Let me step in here for a second .... first, one doesn't wear on their head what Tom wears on his without being put together in good ways, psyscologically and physically! FREEING the Oppressed is taken very seriously in certain circles. I've had more than a passing interest in Tom's fraternity both here and abroad. Some of those on the otherside of the Atlantic may not be as aware as those of us here in the States about that fraternity....

Presdient Kennedy for had an affinity for Tom's military fraternity, expanding their capability and usability in ways most will never know. However, one can be assured we are ALL better because of the TOM PURVIS'S of the USArmy Special Forces (Green Beret), in which Tom was a leader of the best of the BEST.

I suspect Tom Purvis as a A-Team Commander [at one time] has forgot more regarding NATO 7.62/6.5mm ball ammunition [for rifles] than many of us knew/ or CLAIM today in knowing. I also won't go into what a HALO (which Tom is) instructor does, rest assured what does happen, DOSEN'T, sitting behind a computer screen....

A few on this board can also recall the dread anticipation knowing someone was going to die in a few moments.

I'm also sure, the Craig Roberts and Carlos Hathcock's of the world, not to mention Marines-RANGERS including LRRP's were instructed in their crafts by the likes of Special Operations Command types, the Tom Purvises if you will. So lighten up.... yes? :)

As far as the 6th floor is concerned, someone shot from that building, Oswald (1or2) or otherwise. Did he or they use a MC, who knows. Which Oswald was used as lackey, or active participant in the assassination? that's up for grabs, someone fired from up there. Can we put Oswald in that window? NO, the DPD can't! Does that mean a Oswald didn't shot, NO! Oswald can't be "excluded"... Answers have to be found elsewhere. Most of what Tom posts are aids, assisting researchers in background information... Primarily leads focused on/in Texas and New Orleans with accompanying history....

My problem reviewing the entire DP assassination scenario focuses on Elm Street. Everything I know about the assassination on Elm Street point to a "3rd" shot that occurs further down Elm Street street. This scenario can't be rectified by DP films, yet, YET based on MWest's survey data provided by Tom Purvis, the "3rd" shot does indeed happen further WEST on Elm Street...

therefore the Zapruder FILM is altered, the question remaining is, WHY?

One might also assume; background data provided by Tom Purvis will assist those that want that question answered. At the least, provide possible motive (willing and not-so-willing possible participants) in the assassination.

Now having said all that, maybe Tom can tell me if he knew a certain S-Major. He was TDY to C' Detachment-5th SOF, Nha Trang, we got banged up in the Central Highlands, we shared a hopital room at the French Hospital in Saigon Aug-Sept '63.

David Healy

And now I know the question, and the answer is no!

That early in the program, ALL of the SF were TDY.

This is why so many can claim so many tours there.

Tour of duty was a "volunteer" TDY for 6-months. As a TDY assignment, Jump Pay, Combat Pay, and full TDY paid was earned (even though one was provided with food and whatever/wherever he could find to sleep).

Therefore, there was no shortage of volunteers out of SF to serve there as the money was far and above what one could earn anywhere else.

Some even managed to draw a second "incentive" pay which by Army Regulations was illegal. But due to what they were doing and where it was being done at, it was kept relatively quiet.

After the introduction of the first actual Ground Force Combat Troops, (USMC & 173rd Abn Brigade out of Okinawa), it became a 1-year tour of duty and the "volunteer" 6-month tour with TDY Pay was ended.

That is why if one actually encounters one of the "old"/early SF personnel and they speak of their 6 or 7 tours of duty there, that is what they prlmarily speak of.

Few actually served more than two or three full 1-year tours, yet many served multiple 6-month at a time tours only to return to stateside for a couple of months until qualified to return for another 6-month TDY Tour.

The "C" Team is in fact 5th Group Headquarters. Which consists of the Group Commander, Staff, and all of those personnel required to keep the "B" Teams (Company Size Element) functioning. The "A" Teams fell under the command of their specific "B" Team.

The "A"-Team was the basic unit with the 12-man team, lead by as you say, a Captain.

The "best" of the actual Jungle Snipers were routed through our "School of the America's" in Panama. The Jungle Warfare School.

And although I also am a graduate of the Jungle Warfare school, the Phillipine Tracking School was reportedly even better than the Panama School.

Do not get me wrong on the Carlos Hathcock and Craig Roberts as regards their individual shooting skill and ability, which most are quite aware of.

However, they made the mistake, (although one of them qualified the statement) of basing their shooting scenario on the WC's Z312/313 as the last shot sequence.

And in that regards, it would have been quite and achievement in shooting skills to get off the three shots and make even the two hits.

However, one must also place into perspective the considerable difference between shooting mama-san or papa-san of the banks of a rice paddy as they stroll along at an even pace, and the shooting of a laterally moving target across a field of fire with the target moving at varying and unknown speeds and incurring a continual drop in elevation as it moved.

Urban Sniping as opposed to Jungle Sniping are considerably different.

One just may want to take notice of the news programs which continually show our snipers as well as their snipers ON THE ROOFTOPs in Iraq.

Guess why?

Anyone who thinks that they can plan an effective sniper exercise in an area where it is completely undeterminable as to how much interference will be had based on personnell roaming around through the area, personnel viewing the motorcade and blocking the view, potential for motorcycle cops alongside the Presidential Limo blocking the line of sight, etc;. has obviously never even tried to shoot a stray dog or cat inside the city limits.

These are variables which CAN NOT be taken into consideration, and thus anyone who wants to assure a shot, gets high!

Lastly, it is irrelevant as to what if any qualifications which I may have, other than possibly some experience and training in covert operations which may give a slight edge on others who do not understand the fundamentals as to how successful such operations are achieved.

Examples:

LHO's rangfire qualifications are a matter of public record. He entered the USMC firing in the mid to upper ranges of EXPERT when shooting targets at 200 yards and 300 yards from a fixed/stable firing position/platform.

This is not the average "off the street" Joe/Blow shooter and is quite indicative that LHO had rifle marksmanship training prior to entering the USMC.

Throughout his practice fire as well as into his final Rangefire qualification, LHO maintained this "Upper Expert" rating for those stations from 200 to 300 yards.

Had LHO been in the US Army (which does not even fire a 500 yard range qualification test), LHO would have walked away rated in the TOP of the EXPERT qualification.

As it was, two stations so degraded the overall score (average) down to the extent that it made LHO qualify only as a "MARKSMAN" overall.

These two stations consisted of a 500 yard standing/unsupported position in which he barely passed, and another long range firing station in which the wind speeds had increased to more than double and for which LHO (and presumeably everyone else) had no experience shooting under these conditions, and LHO was consistantly adjusting the windage on his sights in attempt to even hit the target.

This firing station he failed.

Now, everyone hears what a "poor" shot LHO was.

Download and copy his range fire practice as well as final Rangfire qualifications and then take them to a USMC Gunnery Instructor and see exactly what he has to say about it.

This is why the USMC Major as well as the Gunney Sgt. who testified before the WC stated the "easy" ability to shoot a target with deadly accuracy at ranges which were less than 100 yards.

They had access to and looked at ALL of the pertinent data as regards the shooting ability of LHO.

Had he been standing in an open cow pasture shooting at a 500 yard target, then it is most unlikely that JFK would have gotten hit even two times.

When firing at targets of 200 yards and 300 yards from a fixed firing position, LHO was deadly accurate. And, he entered the USMC shooting with that ability.

Now, the WC was stuck with somewhat of a problem.

Had they fully elaborated on the 200-yard to 300-yard shooting ability of LHO, as fully demonstrated by his practice as well as final Rangefire Qualifications, it is most unlikely that anyone would have ever fallen for "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Kind of difficult to tell everyone what a great shot this person is and then tell them that, oh by the way, he missed one of these simple shots.

Therefore, the WC had to make it appear that LHO was good enough to get two our of three hits, but not good enough to get three out of three hits.

Quite obviously, they did a good job of doing so!

The absolute best advice that I could offer on the subject matter of the JFK assassination would be to NOT believe anything claimed by anyone.

If you want to know the answer, then research the question completely for yourself, and then seek the advice of multiple experts in the specific field in order to insure that there is some consensus of opinion.

And, when asking the questions of experts, do not "bait" them into hypothetical scenarios which have no basis or foundation in fact other than someone claimed it to be.

Many wish to elaborate on why LHO/the shooter did not take the easy shot as the Presidential Limousine approached the TSDB.

This has been elaborated on multiple and many times:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0451b.htm

All that one has to do is take a good look at this and recall that JBC was sitting directly in front of JFK, and that the top of JFK's head was only a few inches higher than the top of JBC.

Therefore, due to time-of-flight for the bullet and an unestimatable forward speed of the vehicle, one would have to be "guestimating" and aiming at some point on the face/head of JBC and hoping for a near miss over the top of his head to strike the few inches of JFK which would have protruded above the head of JBC.

That would have been one of those miracle shots to pull off.

Did not pass go the first time!

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For Tom Purvis & All Members

I would like to clarify something regarding some critical posts that I have made over a seveal year time span in two different forums in reference to Tom Purvis' Posts.

I have never meant a criticism, unless jokingly, as to Tom's character, his patriotism, his service and sacrifice to his country, and to his being a responsible citizen, human being and family man.

My criticism, which will no doubt never end, regards his methods of posting....his repetitiveness...the number of his posts in a nearly singular area.... and in general what I perceive to be an attempted "take Over" of a topic. There have been literally "hundreds" of threads which I have participated in, but have felt forced to end participation, only because of the waste of time re re re re re reading

the same information over a period of years. There have been occassions when I have had to wade thru five or six of Tom's successive posts in a thread in order to be able to reply.

In that I have a "life apart from the forum", I am unable to do all of this re-reading. Particularly that when asked to explain or verify something, he either "bails out" of the topic which he has for all practical purposes ruined...or stated something similar to "you must find out for yourself" !

I feel that this is not only quite improper and "uncultured" behavior, but a terrific waste of both time and space.

I have chosen this method of appealing to the "FORUM MODERATORS", because I feel strongly enough regarding Tom's qualities as a decent human being, to NOT TALK BEHIND HIS BACK.

To me this is much more a forum disruption than a few harsh words between a few forum members. This isn't rudeness or a lack of culture, but it leads to something IMO much more harmful to the forum. It both disrupts and ends many threads because of the time consuming necessity to constantly re-read, much repeated information.

If anyone doubts the validity of what I have stated, pease take "A QUICK LOOK" thru his several thousands of posts. Neither my nor anyone's lack of culture prevents the disemmination of information. This type of problem does and should be dealt with.

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Charlie Black

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For Tom Purvis & All Members

I would like to clarify something regarding some critical posts that I have made over a seveal year time span in two different forums in reference to Tom Purvis' Posts.

I have never meant a criticism, unless jokingly, as to Tom's character, his patriotism, his service and sacrifice to his country, and to his being a responsible citizen, human being and family man.

My criticism, which will no doubt never end, regards his methods of posting....his repetitiveness...the number of his posts in a nearly singular area.... and in general what I perceive to be an attempted "take Over" of a topic. There have been literally "hundreds" of threads which I have participated in, but have felt forced to end participation, only because of the waste of time re re re re re reading

the same information over a period of years. There have been occassions when I have had to wade thru five or six of Tom's successive posts in a thread in order to be able to reply.

In that I have a "life apart from the forum", I am unable to do all of this re-reading. Particularly that when asked to explain or verify something, he either "bails out" of the topic which he has for all practical purposes ruined...or stated something similar to "you must find out for yourself" !

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

I have chosen this method of appealing to the "FORUM MODERATORS", because I feel strongly enough regarding Tom's qualities as a decent human being, to NOT TALK BEHIND HIS BACK.

To me this is much more a forum disruption than a few harsh words between a few forum members. This isn't rudeness or a lack of culture, but it leads to something IMO much more harmful to the forum. It both disrupts and ends many threads because of the time consuming necessity to constantly re-read, much repeated information.

If anyone doubts the validity of what I have stated, pease take "A QUICK LOOK" thru his several thousands of posts. Neither my nor anyone's lack of culture prevents the disemmination of information. This type of problem does and should be dealt with.

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Charlie Black

I feel that this is not only quite improper and "uncultured" behavior, but a terrific waste of both time and space.

Well Charles:

Since it would appear that you have yet to come to the realization that:

1. Z312/313 was not the last shot fired in the assassination.

2. That the shooter, whoever it was, had far more time than the 5.9 seconds between Z210 (as reported by the WC) and Z313, (as reportedly the last shot fired according to the WC).

3. That LHO was extremely qualified in the accuracy necessary to achieve the shooting.

Then yes, it has been an absolute complete waste of my time as far as your comprehension of the facts is concerned.

However, I might add that there others who seldom even bother to post here, and it is most doubtful that it has been a waste of their time as they are the ones who have long been searching for some of the facts which as you say are repeated too often.

when I have had to wade thru five or six of Tom's successive posts in a thread in order to be able to reply.

Is some unknown being holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read my obviously un-informative postings?

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Just in event that you have not caught on yet, rest assured that I have absolutely ZERO qualms in regards to being rude, crude, and socially unacceptable to anyone who jumps into these discussions and has done little or no factual research other than read a few of the posting here or a few of the JFK CT assassination books, or considered watching the movie "JFK" 13 times.

If one is sufficiently enough, completely ignorant of the facts, that they stick their foot in their mouth, then I am most certainly willing to provide the information necessary for them to have to then chew on it.

The last time that I checked, I was invited/asked to come into this forum and post.

Rest assured that I did not seek out the opportunity to mingle with some who in many ways have demonstrated a complete inability for factual examination of the assassination of JFK and the background and associations of LHO.

In fact, not long ago I was quite ready to "throw in the towel' but then it became apparant that one or two individuals were, it would appear, making a concentrated effort to achieve that goal.

And, considering that there was still considerable research information in my possession, which had not too date been revealed; explained; and/or become a part of public knowledge, it was decided to drive the stake in a little deeper rather than call it quits and do something worthwhile such as working in the flower beds.

The complete "garbage" of the JFK assassination has had some 40+ years to continue to grow and accumulate in size and stench, and it even continues to grow larger and more odorous.

And despite whatever small contribution I may or may not have made, look around and one still sees this garbage/refuse continue with such as the "Two Rifles", etc; etc; etc.

So, is it likely that whatever I post here will change the minds of most? Rest assured that I am neither that stupid nor do I have that much faith in the ability of ALL of the human species to recognize and evaluate factual evidence and information.

However, thankfully, I do receive an occassional email from those who recognize the importance of, as well as the significance of factual evidence and factual research, and they will be the ones who will hopefully have the information necessary to continue to throw water and or dirt on the complete stench of much of what many consider to be actual research.

Not unlike as demonstrated on the TV commercial, there is an EZ button one can utilized. I believe it is something like "ignore poster"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;CODE=ignore

And, I do not believe that John even charges for this service.

Lastly, even with my purported skills and qualifications, it is most unlikely that I will be able to "wipe out"/eliminate the ability for ignorance on the part of the human species.

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For Tom Purvis & All Members

I would like to clarify something regarding some critical posts that I have made over a seveal year time span in two different forums in reference to Tom Purvis' Posts.

I have never meant a criticism, unless jokingly, as to Tom's character, his patriotism, his service and sacrifice to his country, and to his being a responsible citizen, human being and family man.

My criticism, which will no doubt never end, regards his methods of posting....his repetitiveness...the number of his posts in a nearly singular area.... and in general what I perceive to be an attempted "take Over" of a topic. There have been literally "hundreds" of threads which I have participated in, but have felt forced to end participation, only because of the waste of time re re re re re reading

the same information over a period of years. There have been occassions when I have had to wade thru five or six of Tom's successive posts in a thread in order to be able to reply.

In that I have a "life apart from the forum", I am unable to do all of this re-reading. Particularly that when asked to explain or verify something, he either "bails out" of the topic which he has for all practical purposes ruined...or stated something similar to "you must find out for yourself" !

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

I have chosen this method of appealing to the "FORUM MODERATORS", because I feel strongly enough regarding Tom's qualities as a decent human being, to NOT TALK BEHIND HIS BACK.

To me this is much more a forum disruption than a few harsh words between a few forum members. This isn't rudeness or a lack of culture, but it leads to something IMO much more harmful to the forum. It both disrupts and ends many threads because of the time consuming necessity to constantly re-read, much repeated information.

If anyone doubts the validity of what I have stated, pease take "A QUICK LOOK" thru his several thousands of posts. Neither my nor anyone's lack of culture prevents the disemmination of information. This type of problem does and should be dealt with.

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Charlie Black

I feel that this is not only quite improper and "uncultured" behavior, but a terrific waste of both time and space.

Well Charles:

Since it would appear that you have yet to come to the realization that:

1. Z312/313 was not the last shot fired in the assassination.

2. That the shooter, whoever it was, had far more time than the 5.9 seconds between Z210 (as reported by the WC) and Z313, (as reportedly the last shot fired according to the WC).

3. That LHO was extremely qualified in the accuracy necessary to achieve the shooting.

Then yes, it has been an absolute complete waste of my time as far as your comprehension of the facts is concerned.

However, I might add that there others who seldom even bother to post here, and it is most doubtful that it has been a waste of their time as they are the ones who have long been searching for some of the facts which as you say are repeated too often.

when I have had to wade thru five or six of Tom's successive posts in a thread in order to be able to reply.

Is some unknown being holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read my obviously un-informative postings?

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Sorry Tom But I have meant every word that I said, or I would not have bothered !

Just in event that you have not caught on yet, rest assured that I have absolutely ZERO qualms in regards to being rude, crude, and socially unacceptable to anyone who jumps into these discussions and has done little or no factual research other than read a few of the posting here or a few of the JFK CT assassination books, or considered watching the movie "JFK" 13 times.

If one is sufficiently enough, completely ignorant of the facts, that they stick their foot in their mouth, then I am most certainly willing to provide the information necessary for them to have to then chew on it.

The last time that I checked, I was invited/asked to come into this forum and post.

Rest assured that I did not seek out the opportunity to mingle with some who in many ways have demonstrated a complete inability for factual examination of the assassination of JFK and the background and associations of LHO.

In fact, not long ago I was quite ready to "throw in the towel' but then it became apparant that one or two individuals were, it would appear, making a concentrated effort to achieve that goal.

And, considering that there was still considerable research information in my possession, which had not too date been revealed; explained; and/or become a part of public knowledge, it was decided to drive the stake in a little deeper rather than call it quits and do something worthwhile such as working in the flower beds.

The complete "garbage" of the JFK assassination has had some 40+ years to continue to grow and accumulate in size and stench, and it even continues to grow larger and more odorous.

And despite whatever small contribution I may or may not have made, look around and one still sees this garbage/refuse continue with such as the "Two Rifles", etc; etc; etc.

So, is it likely that whatever I post here will change the minds of most? Rest assured that I am neither that stupid nor do I have that much faith in the ability of ALL of the human species to recognize and evaluate factual evidence and information.

However, thankfully, I do receive an occassional email from those who recognize the importance of, as well as the significance of factual evidence and factual research, and they will be the ones who will hopefully have the information necessary to continue to throw water and or dirt on the complete stench of much of what many consider to be actual research.

Not unlike as demonstrated on the TV commercial, there is an EZ button one can utilized. I believe it is something like "ignore poster"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;CODE=ignore

And, I do not believe that John even charges for this service.

Lastly, even with my purported skills and qualifications, it is most unlikely that I will be able to "wipe out"/eliminate the ability for ignorance on the part of the human species.

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Tom:

Much respect for your background and experience. Third shot evidence does indeed change the time/difficulty and therefore who could actually make this shot. I've read that there's some reasonable bases for more than 3 shots, including use of silenced weapons. What still doesn't add up for me (assuming LHO achieved his badges, marksmanship etc.) is that a practiced shooter should require routine shooting, hence practice to maintain skills. Given that LHO's short life has been studied in brute detail, especially his last year thru the New Orleans and Dallas area, where/when did he put in the assumed work necessary to maintain sniper accuracy? It appears he didn't do much with the rifle either during or after Corps duty. Had he been an active sniper or subsequently engaged in combat, I might be more inclined to accept his marksmanship. And didn't some reports indicate that --for a guy with rifles in the garage-- he had no gun cleaning equipment? Last, the published criticism of the Carracano (and its imprecise sight) as a medium velocity carbine is well-known; although admittedly I've never shot one, I remain unconvinced that this was (in retrospect) a suitable weapon for the murder. -- Gene

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Tom:

Much respect for your background and experience. Third shot evidence does indeed change the time/difficulty and therefore who could actually make this shot. I've read that there's some reasonable bases for more than 3 shots, including use of silenced weapons. What still doesn't add up for me (assuming LHO achieved his badges, marksmanship etc.) is that a practiced shooter should require routine shooting, hence practice to maintain skills. Given that LHO's short life has been studied in brute detail, especially his last year thru the New Orleans and Dallas area, where/when did he put in the assumed work necessary to maintain sniper accuracy? It appears he didn't do much with the rifle either during or after Corps duty. Had he been an active sniper or subsequently engaged in combat, I might be more inclined to accept his marksmanship. And didn't some reports indicate that --for a guy with rifles in the garage-- he had no gun cleaning equipment? Last, the published criticism of the Carracano (and its imprecise sight) as a medium velocity carbine is well-known; although admittedly I've never shot one, I remain unconvinced that this was (in retrospect) a suitable weapon for the murder. -- Gene

1. Based on the now somewhat recognized aspects that Z312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shooting sequence.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

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Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f...o_wcd88_040.jpg

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And since Tom Purvis is neither more qualified nor more competent, nor does he have access to ALL of the information which the US Secret Service had access to, then based on the fact that they were in possession of the "Best Evidence", one should generally assume that the "Kill Zone" just increased by some 30 +/- feet.

Now! I personally am certainly no match for the shooting ability of a Craig Roberts or a Carlos Hathcock.

However, give me 5.9 seconds between the first shot and the second shot, with an almost virtually straight line of fire at a going away target, and rest assured that most marginally experienced shooters could re-obtain a sight picture through a telescopic sight /re-acquire the target, and get a hit in a distance which was in fact only about 88 yards.

Especially were I to possess the ability to demonstrate multiple times that I could fire in the upper EXPERT range at targets located 200 yards andj 300 yards when firing from a fixed/stable position, and even do so under "rapid-fire" conditions.

Now that we have establised some of the essential parameters, we do not have to deal with "trick questions" based on completely incorrect data.

"Garbage in----Garbage out!--------We learned that while studing ORSA (Operational Research & Systems Analysis) long before the age of computers came along.

2. When LHO first entered the USMC, during some of his absolutely first live fire practice exercises, he immediately began demonstrating firing ability in the upper EXPERT range for targets of 200 yards to 300 yards.

When considered that this was with a completely unfamiliar weapon (the M1-Garand), this is quite a marksmanship feat in and of itself.

It also represents that he achieved prior instruction in marksmanship ability, and as to whether this ability was learned from his older half-brother, or from limited exposure at Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, or both, is completely un-explored and unknown territory in where LHO learned to shoot this well.

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Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the. last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.

Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms.

Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.

To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1 do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?

Note: Although 9 to 10 years old would, to most who were not raised in the south, seem as an early age in which to begin to learn to shoot, it was quite common down here to find those of this age who could shoot the eyes out of rabbits with a good .22 caliber rifle.

Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?

Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.

Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?

Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother- in-law, Lee or how?

Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in-between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was it Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.

Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?

Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semi-automatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?

Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?

Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.

Another little known fact of the south. "Shooters" utilize the .22 caliber rifle to hunt rabbits and squirrels with. "Non-shooters" who can not hit S**T untilze shotguns.

That LHO could enter the USMC with the firing ability which he demonstrated during his first live-fire shooting exercises, demonstrates a full understanding of certain principals of marksmanship.

*In fact, since my younger brother (now deceased) was a member of the Gulf Coast Squadron of the Civil Air Patrol, and one of the things which he tremendously enjoyed was the "Marksmanship" and shooting experience he got from it, it encompasses another little known fact about the potential for LHO to have enhanced anything which he may have been exposed to at Chamberlain-Hunt Academy and/or learned from his older half-brother and Chamberlain-Hunt Rifle Team member, John Pic.

http://www.wawg.cap.gov/index.php?page=news

http://www.orwg.cap.gov/Cadet/Cadet.html

Basic Marksmanship Encampment

*It is completely unknown as to whether or not the CAP officially sanctioned any early (LHO years) shooting events or not.

However, this would not seem to be an unusual event in the south, whether an official part of the CAP or just something to draw in membership.

It is of course like so much else in the life and times of LHO, another unknown as to where he received his early marksmanship training.

So, if one were to assume that LHO could master the riding of a motorcycle at 100 miles per hour when he entered the USMC

(firing in the upper expert ranges with an unfamiliar weapon at targets of 200 yards and 300 yards)

Then, would maintaining the ability to ride a smaller/less poweful motorcycle at speeds of 50, miles (accurate shooting with an excellent accuracy weapon at ranges less than 100 yards) appear that unusual?

Long enough on this one. Let's continue later.

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Tom:

Much respect for your background and experience. Third shot evidence does indeed change the time/difficulty and therefore who could actually make this shot. I've read that there's some reasonable bases for more than 3 shots, including use of silenced weapons. What still doesn't add up for me (assuming LHO achieved his badges, marksmanship etc.) is that a practiced shooter should require routine shooting, hence practice to maintain skills. Given that LHO's short life has been studied in brute detail, especially his last year thru the New Orleans and Dallas area, where/when did he put in the assumed work necessary to maintain sniper accuracy? It appears he didn't do much with the rifle either during or after Corps duty. Had he been an active sniper or subsequently engaged in combat, I might be more inclined to accept his marksmanship. And didn't some reports indicate that --for a guy with rifles in the garage-- he had no gun cleaning equipment? Last, the published criticism of the Carracano (and its imprecise sight) as a medium velocity carbine is well-known; although admittedly I've never shot one, I remain unconvinced that this was (in retrospect) a suitable weapon for the murder. -- Gene

1. Based on the now somewhat recognized aspects that Z312/313 was in fact the second shot in the shooting sequence.

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

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Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--- suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f...o_wcd88_040.jpg

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And since Tom Purvis is neither more qualified nor more competent, nor does he have access to ALL of the information which the US Secret Service had access to, then based on the fact that they were in possession of the "Best Evidence", one should generally assume that the "Kill Zone" just increased by some 30 +/- feet.

Now! I personally am certainly no match for the shooting ability of a Craig Roberts or a Carlos Hathcock.

However, give me 5.9 seconds between the first shot and the second shot, with an almost virtually straight line of fire at a going away target, and rest assured that most marginally experienced shooters could re-obtain a sight picture through a telescopic sight /re-acquire the target, and get a hit in a distance which was in fact only about 88 yards.

Especially were I to possess the ability to demonstrate multiple times that I could fire in the upper EXPERT range at targets located 200 yards andj 300 yards when firing from a fixed/stable position, and even do so under "rapid-fire" conditions.

Now that we have establised some of the essential parameters, we do not have to deal with "trick questions" based on completely incorrect data.

"Garbage in----Garbage out!--------We learned that while studing ORSA (Operational Research & Systems Analysis) long before the age of computers came along.

2. When LHO first entered the USMC, during some of his absolutely first live fire practice exercises, he immediately began demonstrating firing ability in the upper EXPERT range for targets of 200 yards to 300 yards.

When considered that this was with a completely unfamiliar weapon (the M1-Garand), this is quite a marksmanship feat in and of itself.

It also represents that he achieved prior instruction in marksmanship ability, and as to whether this ability was learned from his older half-brother, or from limited exposure at Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, or both, is completely un-explored and unknown territory in where LHO learned to shoot this well.

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Mr. JENNER. All right. June of '48?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And I might say there, when school--the. last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. And we did, John and I, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because I recall helping pack away some old Springfield rifles at that time in Cosmolene

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I understand that.

Of course John and I, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms.

Mr. OSWALD. And, also, I believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. OSWALD. To what extent we were familiar with firearms.

To elaborate, at military school John was by far the better shot of the two of us. He was on the school rifle team. And, at this time, I was 10 years old--when I first attended there. My hunting instinct came alive

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; 1 do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was 1948-49. So he was 9 to 10 years old?

Note: Although 9 to 10 years old would, to most who were not raised in the south, seem as an early age in which to begin to learn to shoot, it was quite common down here to find those of this age who could shoot the eyes out of rabbits with a good .22 caliber rifle.

Mr. JENNER. I have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in September of 1959 he spent two or three days at home in Fort Worth.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip.

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting.

Mr. OSWALD. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you?

Mr. OSWALD. Three of us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a rifle?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Those I take it were .22's.

Mr. OSWALD. All three were .22 caliber, that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain them?

Mr. OSWALD. Two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother-in-law?

Mr. OSWALD. My brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. OSWALD. S. R. Mercer, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. What was the occasion of this trip? How did it come about? Did you suggest it, your brother- in-law, Lee or how?

Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in-between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was it Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.

Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?

Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.

Mr. DULLES. And then he shipped out?

Mr. OSWALD. To locate a job.

Mr. JENNER. On that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the .22 caliber rifle he was carrying?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. OSWALD. I would say an average amount.

Mr. JENNER. Hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. Did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, I mean?

Mr. OSWALD. As I recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that I had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semi-automatic 22 and I perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that I said I got him. But all three of us were shooting at him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did all three of you claim him?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit?

Mr. OSWALD. No squirrels were killed that day and perhaps I believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and I believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them.

Mr. JENNER. Now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?

Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?

Mr. OSWALD. I feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and I am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so.

Another little known fact of the south. "Shooters" utilize the .22 caliber rifle to hunt rabbits and squirrels with. "Non-shooters" who can not hit S**T untilze shotguns.

That LHO could enter the USMC with the firing ability which he demonstrated during his first live-fire shooting exercises, demonstrates a full understanding of certain principals of marksmanship.

*In fact, since my younger brother (now deceased) was a member of the Gulf Coast Squadron of the Civil Air Patrol, and one of the things which he tremendously enjoyed was the "Marksmanship" and shooting experience he got from it, it encompasses another little known fact about the potential for LHO to have enhanced anything which he may have been exposed to at Chamberlain-Hunt Academy and/or learned from his older half-brother and Chamberlain-Hunt Rifle Team member, John Pic.

http://www.wawg.cap.gov/index.php?page=news

http://www.orwg.cap.gov/Cadet/Cadet.html

Basic Marksmanship Encampment

*It is completely unknown as to whether or not the CAP officially sanctioned any early (LHO years) shooting events or not.

However, this would not seem to be an unusual event in the south, whether an official part of the CAP or just something to draw in membership.

It is of course like so much else in the life and times of LHO, another unknown as to where he received his early marksmanship training.

So, if one were to assume that LHO could master the riding of a motorcycle at 100 miles per hour when he entered the USMC

(firing in the upper expert ranges with an unfamiliar weapon at targets of 200 yards and 300 yards)

Then, would maintaining the ability to ride a smaller/less poweful motorcycle at speeds of 50, miles (accurate shooting with an excellent accuracy weapon at ranges less than 100 yards) appear that unusual?

Long enough on this one. Let's continue later.

What still doesn't add up for me (assuming LHO achieved his badges, marksmanship etc.) is that a practiced shooter should require routine shooting, hence practice to maintain skills. Given that LHO's short life has been studied in brute detail, especially his last year thru the New Orleans and Dallas area, where/when did he put in the assumed work necessary to maintain sniper accuracy? It appears he didn't do much with the rifle either during or after Corps duty. Had he been an active sniper or subsequently engaged in combat, I might be more inclined to accept his marksmanship. And didn't some reports indicate that --for a guy with rifles in the garage-- he had no gun cleaning equipment

Unfortunately, due to "Snipers" having interjected their comments into the topic of the shooting, far too many have come to think that 100 yard shots require some great "SNIPER" qualification.

This happens to be Boy Scout/Civil Air Patrol/ and plain old everyday country boy shooting.

The longest shot (#3, down in front of James Altgens) was right at the 295 yards/actual line-of-sight distance.

Not hardly what one would call "sniper" shooting.

This is why those qualified persons who were questioned by the WC stated how "easy" the shots would have been for someone with LHO's demonstrated shooting ability.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/anderson.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Based on what you see of Mr. Oswald's marksmanship capabilities from the Marine Corps records which you have before you, Major Anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman?

Major ANDERSON - I would say that as compared to other Marines receiving the same type of training, that Oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. As compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot.

Mr. SPECTER - I now show you a document marked as Commission Exhibit No. 902, which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck President Kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the President of 265.3 feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the President at the time the President was struck in the head, and I ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of Mr. Oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the Marine Corps documents on him.

Major ANDERSON - I consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that Oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/patches/medal...marksmansh.html

Rifle Marksmanship Badges were awarded in three classes from lowest to highest: Marksman, Sharpshooter, and Expert

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/folsom.htm

Mr. ELY - When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the next highest, and expert would be the highest category? Colonel FOLSOM - That is correct

Colonel FOLSOM - Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a result of the scores.

In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with the abbreviation "MM" for marksman.

Well now! It would appear that LHO just got a "bump" in his shooting ability.

Amazing at the extent to which some "clerical error" can affect how well a person can actually shoot.

Too bad all of the EXPERT SNIPERS did not bother to actually check into LHO's shooting ability. Just may have learned something.

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

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I am sorry to say that Tom's last two posts of his already overly repetivive tho obsure theory, is further testament to what I had previously posted.

I feel that he has said virtually nothing understandable, relevent or proveable in many years !

Charlie Black

Can not find the EZ button Charles?

Try the posting just prior in regards to LHO's USMC rangefire qualification. If you try real hard you just may learn something.

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