Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Gerry Simone]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Let me rephrase the question to make it very simple:

Did the assassination conspirators want to hide the fact that multiple shooters were involved? If so, why?

The fact that the body was snatched so quickly -- apparently to cover up evidence of multiple shooters -- makes it seem like that was a part of the assassination plotters plan.

I may have changed my mind now (lol).

Scenario 1 - Kill Team motivated only in ensuring reversal of policy and escalating VietNam War by eliminating JFK.  Thus, there's a plan to cover-up multiple shooters ahead of time and blame it on a home-grown Communist nut job without risking self-annihilation from global nuclear warfare.  LBJ will implement policy change and not oppose MIC.  The Cover-Up team may have included Hoover and LBJ, but it's entirely possible that they read between the lines and tacitly colluded.

Scenario 2 - Kill Team motivated by re-taking Cuba and possibly tit-for-tat with the Soviets, including thermonuclear war. No initial plan to cover-up multiple shooters, but the new regime did not buy the foreign conspiracy evidence or didn't care for it, but tacitly welcomed the change.  They initiated the cover-up of multiple shooters with the help of certain allies in the military since they weren't going to launch an invasion or missiles.

[Paul Trejo]

David Lifton,

I appreciate your extended discourse on your views of Walker, Oswald, Marina and JFK.   It's extremely interesting material.

BTW, your "false flag" theory of the Walker shooting agrees with Jeff Caufield's theory.

I have openly disagreed with Jeff Caufield on that point.  I believe he has omitted the importance of George DeMohrenschildt in the building of hatred against General Walker (as shown in George's WC testimony and in his I'm A Patsy manuscript of 1977.  He and Oswald called Walker, "General Fokker").  George also names Volkmar Schmidt in this Hate-Walker movement, and Volkmar admitted publicly that he was the one who convinced Oswald that Walker was perhaps "as bad as Hitler."

I also disagree that raising the Walker shooting in the context of the JFK murder was simply to make Oswald look like a nasty boy.

We must find out the source of the question of that reporter who asked Chief Jesse Curry if there was any connection between the JFK murder and the Walker shooting.

IMHO, the source was Walker himself.   Early the next morning, Walker called a German newspaper and planted the same seed -- Oswald was the shooter at both Walker and JFK!   The story adds -- "if RFK had not released Oswald in April 1963, his brother would still be alive today."

http://www.pet880.com/images/19631129_Deutsche_NZ.jpg

IMHO, the real purpose of the intrustion of the Walker shooting into the JFK history was not to make Oswald into a nasty boy, but for Walker himself to insert his name into the history; because Walker ultimately wanted his role in the JFK murder to be known.  That was the purpose of the German article (and later articles in the National Enquirer and other tabloids). 

Walker was a military mastermind.  He was a heavily decorated Major General, and only 54 when JFK was killed -- and he was well-respected among the Radical Right in Dallas and in the South generally.  Walker had organized the humiliation of Adlai Stevenson in Dallas only one month before the JFK killing.

Finally -- this is relevant to the theme of this thread, because of the sharp difference of the JFK Cover-up Team and the JFK Kill Team.

I realize, David, that this clashes with a theory that One Team planned both murder and cover-up -- but that theory has never made sense to me.  I'm open to new evidence.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Gerry Simone]

6 hours ago, David Lifton said:

No, I didn't see that. But if I suddenly get hit by the proverbial bus, can you please attempt to see that he doesn't use the event of my passing as the device to deliver a further discourse on Walker.   Thanks.  DSL

Ha ha.  Thank you for being so gracious in your time to respond so eloquently and with great detail.  And injecting humor too.  

[Ron Ecker]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Ron,

I don't recall how Castro was implicated in the plot. But I do recall how the Russians were... the Mexico City evidence that Oswald was in communication with Soviet assassin Valery Kostikov. Also, Oswald's (probably fake) letter to the Russian embassy in the States, where he acted chummy with them and I think mentioned he'd talked to "Kostin" (Kostikov).

Castro didn't have to be factually implicated. All they had to do was blame it on him through "identification" of one of the shooters. Blaming Castro was the whole idea behind Operation Northwoods. And Castro certainly could be said to have a motive: the U.S. had been trying to assassinate him. Lex talionis.

There may have been a faction wanting to blame Russia, hence the Kostikov business. But whether the Mafia instigated the plot or was only complicit, I can't believe the Mob was interested in a war with Russia. Nor were the anti-Castro Cubans who may have participated in the murder.

Mob lawyer Frank Ragano said that Santo Trafficante made a deathbed confession about involvement in the murder. Ragano also said that on the night of the murder, Trafficante was the happiest he had ever seen him, drinking toasts and saying "now we can go back to running our casinos in Cuba."

Whether or not Ragano's account is factual, that had to be the Mafia's sentiment. But of course getting Cuba back soon proved to be a false hope.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Ron Ecker

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Castro didn't have to be factually implicated. All they had to do was blame it on him. That was the whole idea behind Operation Northwoods. And Castro certainly could be said to have a motive: the U.S. had been trying to assassinate him. Lex talionis.

lex ta·li·o·nis

ˈleks ˌtälēˈōnis,ˌtalē-/

noun

1. the law of retaliation, whereby a punishment resembles the offense committed in kind and degree.

[Paul Trejo]

35 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Castro didn't have to be factually implicated. All they had to do was blame it on him through "identification" of one of the shooters. Blaming Castro was the whole idea behind Operation Northwoods. And Castro certainly could be said to have a motive: the U.S. had been trying to assassinate him. Lex talionis.

There may have been a faction wanting to blame Russia, hence the Kostikov business. But whether the Mafia instigated the plot or was only complicit, I can't believe the Mob was interested in a war with Russia. Nor were the anti-Castro Cubans who may have participated in the murder.

Mob lawyer Frank Ragano said that Santo Trafficante made a deathbed confession about involvement in the murder. Ragano also said that on the night of the murder, Trafficante was the happiest he had ever seen him, drinking toasts and saying "now we can go back to running our casinos in Cuba."

Whether or not Ragano's account is factual, that had to be the Mafia's sentiment. But of course getting Cuba back soon proved to be a false hope.

 

Once again I find myself in substantial agreement with Ron Ecker.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Ron,

Just to be clear, you are saying that there was no desire by the assassination conspirators to cover up the fact that there were multiple shooters. Is that right?

If so, then how do you explain the seeming fact that it was known very early on that Kennedy's body needed to be snatched and altered? Altered so that evidence of multiple shooter be covered up as well as possible.

Sandy,

In contrast to David Lifton, one can argue that the decision to force a pre-autopsy autopsy was made for the very first time after Hoover (or someone in Washington DC) decided on the LN theory to get past the evidence of the Communists-did-it CT.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Sandy,

All I know to do is repeat myself from earlier in this thread. Here's what I wrote:

"The assassination was designed to look like exactly what it was, a military-style ambush, and it was to be blamed on Castro. (Edit: Operation Northwoods Revised Edition.) Body alteration became necessary only when Oswald was taken alive instead of almost immediately eliminated (as one of Castro's shooters), and the decision was quickly made to blame it all on Oswald, who therefore, according to official history, is now famous for pulling off a ridiculously impossible feat."

Have I still not made myself clear? Oswald was supposed to be framed as ONE OF THE SHOOTERS, not as THE SHOOTER. He wasn't supposed to get himself arrested (he was supposed to be promptly shot or taken out of Dallas, and then shot or whatever, but somebody got cold feet, slept late, or just screwed up) and ruin the scenario by which he was supposed to be identified (DEAD) as one of the shooters sent by Castro. Taken alive and declaring himself a patsy, he had to be declared a lone nut, to be shot by a nightclub owner who felt sorry for Jackie, while the Secret Service and military had to play Keystone Kops with JFK's body in order to butcher it and cover up evidence of the multiple shooters.

Ron,

Thanks for responding.

I'm not sure why the plotters had to hide the fact that there were multiple shooters just because Oswald was caught alive. I guess it depends on what he knew. I've always thought the plot would have been highly compartmented, in which case Oswald wouldn't have known much... only enough to complete his mission. Whatever that was.

But given that Oswald had to be silenced, he had to have known something important.

[Cliff Varnell]

39 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'm not sure why the plotters had to hide the fact that there were multiple shooters just because Oswald was caught alive

Because sooner or later the other shooters had to be accounted for.

The original Team Kill Oswald plan probably had some pro-Castro Cubans set up to account for the extra shots, but the capture of the patsy queered the Castro connection.

With a live Oswald professing his innocence there was no "irrevocable proof of Communist complicity" as per the Northwoods playbook.

Conspiracy investigations are messy affairs, lots of loose ends and unseen cans of worms.

Easier to whack the patsy and call him Lone Nut.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

In contrast to David Lifton, one can argue that the decision to force a pre-autopsy autopsy was made for the very first time after Hoover (or someone in Washington DC) decided on the LN theory to get past the evidence of the Communists-did-it CT.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

What you say certainly seems to be a possibility. I've considered it and have seen others do the same.

But there seems to be a fundamental flaw in this theory. Kennedy's body was apparently snatched very quickly after his death. It seems inconceivable to me that the body could be stolen without having a preconceived plan. I mean, just imagine LBJ deciding to conceal the conspiracy, then making that plan known to others, and then someone coming up with the idea of removing evidence of conspiracy from the body. After that, somebody has to figure out how to steal the body without detection, etc. etc. Finally the body is snatched. How could all that possibly have been achieved in such a short period of time?

 

[Michael Clark]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul,

What you say certainly seems to be a possibility. I've considered it and have seen others do the same.

But there seems to be a fundamental flaw in this theory. Kennedy's body was apparently snatched very quickly after his death. It seems inconceivable to me that the body could be stolen without having a preconceived plan. I mean, just imagine LBJ deciding to conceal the conspiracy, then making that plan known to others, and then someone coming up with the idea of removing evidence of conspiracy from the body. After that, somebody has to figure out how to steal the body without detection, etc. etc. Finally the body is snatched. How could all that possibly have been achieved in such a short period of time?

 

It has been my thinking that the Z film and other films that were made by the perps, had to be developed and viewed so decisions  could be made as to what actually happened on the ground and what they could get away with and what they could not. Info had to be gathered from the SS, witnesses, the hospital, the police, the shooting teams, observers and film viewers in order to make the autopsy scenario fall in line. After gathering all this info they had to decide if the lone-nut story could be made to stick.

Cheers,

Michael

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Let me rephrase the question to make it very simple:

Did the assassination conspirators want to hide the fact that multiple shooters were involved? If so, why?

The fact that the body was snatched so quickly -- apparently to cover up evidence of multiple shooters -- makes it seem like that was a part of the assassination plotters plan.

I may have changed my mind now (lol).

Scenario 1 - Kill Team motivated only in ensuring reversal of policy and escalating VietNam War by eliminating JFK.  Thus, there's a plan to cover-up multiple shooters ahead of time and blame it on a home-grown Communist nut job without risking self-annihilation from global nuclear warfare.  LBJ will implement policy change and not oppose MIC.  The Cover-Up team may have included Hoover and LBJ, but it's entirely possible that they read between the lines and tacitly colluded.

Problem is, the Mexico City incident -- including Oswald's alleged conversation with Russian assassin Valery Kostikov -- seem to be designed to implicate Russia in a conspiracy. Not to implicate only a "home grown Communist nut."

 

4 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

Scenario 2 - Kill Team motivated by re-taking Cuba and possibly tit-for-tat with the Soviets, including thermonuclear war. No initial plan to cover-up multiple shooters, but the new regime did not buy the foreign conspiracy evidence or didn't care for it, but tacitly welcomed the change.  They initiated the cover-up of multiple shooters with the help of certain allies in the military since they weren't going to launch an invasion or missiles.

Problem is, how could the cover-up artists (the Johnson Administration) have come up with a plan so quickly to snatch Kennedy's body undetected? (For the purpose of removing evidence of multiple shooters.)

 

[Cliff Varnell]

12 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

It has been my thinking that the Z film and other films that were made by the perps, had to be developed and viewed so decisions  could be made as to what actually happened on the ground and what they could get away with and what they could not. Info had to be gathered from the SS, witnesses, the hospital, the police, the shooting teams, observers and film viewers in order to make the autopsy scenario fall in line. After gathering all this info they had to decide if the lone-nut story could be made to stick.

Cheers,

Michael

The Lone Nut scenario was decided upon within hours of Oswald's capture.

[Paul Brancato]

David Lifton - thanks for your enlightening and supportive post. I have to say you have substantially altered my views on Marina. 

Sandy - If I am understanding you, LBJ snatching the body away from Parkland indicates that a plan was already in place to alter the truth. I could add that removing the presidential limo from Dallas before it could be properly examined supports your statement.

[Sandy Larsen]

17 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

It has been my thinking that the Z film and other films that were made by the perps, had to be developed and viewed so decisions  could be made as to what actually happened on the ground and what they could get away with and what they could not. Info had to be gathered from the SS, witnesses, the hospital, the police, the shooting teams, observers and film viewers in order to make the autopsy scenario fall in line. After gathering all this info they had to decide if the lone-nut story could be made to stick.

Cheers,

Michael

And after all that, the assassination plotters had time to figure out how to snatch Kennedy's body?

It seems to me that the plan to snatch and alter the body had to have been created prior to assassination day. It seems that there is simply no way of getting around that.