The Men Who Killed Kennedy series

[Bruce Fernandez]

Right, we just haven't found it yet! The feds tried here. They need to be more careful about tripping silent mouse traps next time!

[Joe Bauer]

On 2/15/2018 at 1:16 PM, Bruce Fernandez said:

Pitzer was right handed with no deformity!

Bruce, very interesting your relationship to Pitzer. Thanks for mentioning this.

Since you were close enough to him and apparently his wife, have you come up with any confidently held personal thoughts regards why your uncle may have taken his life?

Was his relationship with his wife even half-way strained? Was he having an affair and afraid of it's being exposed?

Did he have financial, gambling or other huge debt problems?

Did he have a family history of depression and or suicide? Was he abused as a child?

Did Pitzer carry some huge guilt about something? A past criminal action, anti-social impulses or even a gender identity conflict?

The autopsy revealed no serious health problems. No drug or alcohol or heavy meds problems. He was only 49.

If one seriously wants to know the truth about someone killing themselves or not, it's rational to ask these types of questions to determine whether there were any of the usual signs ( even one ) to explain the personal motivations behind the suicide.

In the death scene drawings and rendition of Pitzer's body position from the photograph, we see marks of where the gun was first found.

In the death scene drawing, with feet and inches marked, we see a circle designated spot with the word "revolver" shown and a line drawn from this to the body that states "9 feet." That's 9 feet "to the left" of the body. Quite a distance.

In the photo rendition a gun "chalk mark" looks to be closer but still 3 feet out to the left and down at the end of his body.

If your uncle was sitting down when he was shot as most investigators believe and the right temple shot resulted in him falling face forward down with his head landing slightly under the bottom step of the ladder, where much blood was spattered, and the rest of his body ending up face down prone with his left arm bent outward and his right hand pinned under his body...it begs a lot of questions how the right temple shot revolver could find it's way so far away from his body ... and on the "left" side.

One would think that a gun used to shoot oneself in the right temple would maybe recoil back farther to the right or perhaps remain in a nerve locked right hand or at least dropped immediately on the right side.

The guns resting point distance left of the body creates valid questions of illogicalness.

Pitzer certainly didn't fling this gun away after firing it, either over and behind his head or quickly under and away from his body.

And a question I asked earlier ( and that hasn't been answered ) regards whether there were any other live bullets found in the gun upon its discovery seems a somewhat important and valid one. If there were extra bullets in the gun, then there could be Pitzer's finger prints on them from loading them into the chamber. That finding could add credence to the suicide explanation.

I read Eaglesham expert's finding that suicide guns rarely have "identifiable" prints on them due to a grip and smudge effect. Was the gun at the Pitzer death scene found to have smudged prints...or none at all?

The time of death was listed at 4:PM and possibly even earlier in the day. Mrs. Pitzer stated that her husband wasn't answering his phone as early as 1:30 PM.

As I mentioned...no one else in the building reported hearing a gun shot?

It was a Saturday afternoon and yes, there would be less staff on a weekend versus a weekday, but the gun shot was not late at night, when one would expect many fewer potential ear witnesses.

Dennis David reported being asked to look at some pictures by your uncle. He mentioned film but also mentioned single slides and prints.

Perhaps these slides and prints showed David what he claimed regards JFK's head wounds as much as a film?

And the fact that no autopsy film has ever been discovered doesn't mean one didn't exist.

If Pitzer truly wanted to kill himself and in such a bloody way...why would he choose such a public place ( his work station ) to do this?

I am not an expert on suicide studies, but I wonder what percentage of people who commit suicide choose a public location to do this versus a more isolated one?

Especially those leaving behind a spouse and children they loved? An example would be husband and father Vince Foster choosing a bucolic and isolated location to do this versus his home.

Pitzer also didn't seem like the kind of person who would want to traumatize his fellow staff and underlings ( some friends? ) by blowing his brains and blood out where they would come in for work the following Monday and see or hear of this...regardless of a cleanup.

It seems the right hand, left hand argument is mute. 

The imaginative explanation Eaglesham gives for the Pitzer wife's 3rd party family member telling her the agency couldn't get her deceased husband's wedding ring off due to swelling is pretty out there if you ask me. That the retriever didn't do this request effort so he or she made up this lie from the authorities to save face with Mrs. Pitzer?

And efforts to discredit Dan Marvin seem fairly debatable.

One:

Marvin found religion and was trying to redeem himself?

And in this vein he went a little crazy trying to find and talk to Mrs. Pitzer? Maybe overdoing this? 

I don't see Marvin's religious conversion reflective of irrationality. Especially if he did personally kill other people in his life, for any reason.

All my life I have seen people finding and turning to religious commitments to help them get through extremely rough periods in their lives. Whether anyone finds fault with this, I must say that many of the people I observed doing this really helped themselves and those around them in real and practical ways by doing so if even temporarily. Often they quit drinking, drugs, being angry and fighting, cheating, etc.

If that is what it takes for many troubled, pained, angry and guilty people to change their lives around or find some peace, redemption and give back some restitution...this is more a good and rational mind set versus not IMO.

And you yourself Bruce did say in your post that Marvin seemed sincere in this way.

I read all 4 of Eaglesham's findings and speculation essays.

Seems to me there are as many debatable and contradictory findings and conclusions in them as there are solid suicide indication ones.

And again, how did Eaglesham find David Vanek when Marvin couldn't? The military lied to Marvin in saying they had no military records on Vanek.  Why would they do that?

And Vanek denied "everything" Marvin claimed about that Special Forces get together? No mock up of Dealey Plaza? 

Is Vanek still alive? Did he have an answer as to why the military would tell Dan Marvin he ( Vanek ) had no military record?

Did Vanek ever have any assassination assignments and that he carried out? If he did, then he must also be a man of secrets beyond the average.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Joe Bauer

[B. A. Copeland]

23 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Len Osanic's series Fifty Reasons for Fifty Years was really good.

And to think that he and Jeff Carter did that by themselves, with no one else producing?

It shows what two dedicated people can do with the modern technology we have today.  If you have not seen it, you should.

 

Oh I have them all archived Jim :). Also, will your JFK: Evidence Today get an audiobook version? If I asked this before, my apologies. Please say yes.

[Bruce Fernandez]

Joe, all, for the most part reasonable points and questions, many of which I've pondered myself. I'll try to respond in detail tomorrow.

[Bruce Fernandez]

Joe, where are you?

[Kirk Gallaway]

Bruce, You certainly have a unique perspective about this issue. Iwould also be curious to your answers to a number of Joe's questions. If you PM Joe , please include me.

One  sideline to this story I've never seen followed up. According to Marvin,  Marvin and Vanek were on a list that was shown in the film of maybe 15 names of people witnessing this seminar if you will,  of how to assassinate someone and pin it on somebody else, and they used a mockup of Dealey Plaza, and at the end, Marvin thought that the instructors said something to the effect that "things went very well in Dealey Plaza."

If you believe Marvin's story you have at least a dozen other people who were there who can attest to the Dealey Plaza mock up and the content of the seminar given. I've never heard any follow up about that.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Kirk Gallaway

[Bruce Fernandez]

And Joe, who are you? I'm prepared to go into some deeply held beliefs, if not demonstrable truths that may help to understand some of the undercurrents of this part of the case, but I'd like to more about you before I put it out publicly. You can respond to bruce_fernandez@msn.com.

Thanks

BRF

[Bruce Fernandez]

Kirk, you posit as I understand the testimony. And you make a great point, how about all the others at the training session? My recollection, however, is not that the training included the "Dealy Plaza operation", but rather that someone, I think Marvin, said he heard two of the trainers talking between sessions saying "that". Someone needs to follow up with the others on the training orders to see if any are alive and willing to talk. My guess is that, like Marvin's experience with the Green Beret society, you'll get only silence. That's not, in my estimation, what you'd expect of patriots, but my definition of patriotism comes from Leadership Training, not Followship Training.

[Ray Mitcham]

4 hours ago, Bruce Fernandez said:

Ray, put it to bed, you're out there. If you care about the truth, call me at 860-677-7073, otherwise, go silent on this issue, you are way .... off base!

B

Thanks for the reply, Bruce. Just want to get to the truth about your uncle's death. Always seemed strange that such a successful man would take his life when he had just arranged for a new job. Can't call you as I am in the U.K.

[James DiEugenio]

10 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Oh I have them all archived Jim :). Also, will your JFK: Evidence Today get an audiobook version? If I asked this before, my apologies. Please say yes.

I am pretty sure it will.

[Joe Bauer]

17 hours ago, Bruce Fernandez said:

Joe, where are you?

Bruce, I am located on the Monterey Peninsula on the Central California Coast line 125 miles South of San Francisco.

Home to such luminaries as Doris Day, Clint Eastwood and passed on ones such as Mae Brussell, Harrison Livingstone.

[Sandy Larsen]

Bruce,

I'd sure love to read what you have to say.

 

[Mark Wilson]

TMWKK was a decent series imo....Turner was all over the place,much like Jim Marrs in Crossfire.....One can critcize TMWKK but there were important interviews,like; Phil Willis and family,Bill/Gayle Newman, Billy Hargis,Aubrey Rike,the exposure of the SS stand down at Love Field moments before the killing,interviews with the Parkland doctors,interviews concerning the autopsy in Bethesda and more...Turner threw alot of theories out there much like Marrs,but both touched on areas/witness' that,well, the Warren Commission ignored.On that point,thumbs up over here....One other question......If the TMWKK is so ridiculous and off base,why was it bannned from the History channel? all the while Dale Myers and others from Shillville get exposure?

[James DiEugenio]

It was banned because of some of the things Barr McClellan said on the show.

Like, "I know Lyndon Johnson killed Kennedy!"  There was nothing in his book that merited any such absolute and metaphysical certitude.

Our side, when given such an opportunity, has to be very careful.  Since the other side, which is in power, will use anything they can to discredit us.

Which explains the other part of your question about Dale "Mr. Single Bullet Fact" Myers.

As I said, Turner had a wonderful opportunity to really do some valuable things.  There were many people he could have had on: Eddie Lopez, Dan Hardway,  Gaeton Fonzi, John Newman, Bill Davy, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles etc.  I don't recall any of them being on.

When you give people like that the back of your hand, and instead you welcome the likes of Judy Baker, Barr McClellan, Dan Marvin and Tom Wilson, well, that tells us a lot about Nigel Turner and his interest in the JFK case.

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

I thought the Tom Wilson stuff was VERY fascinating! The 3D scans to create a replica of the head wound (wounds) and the scans of the autopsy pics showing how they used mortician's wax to cover up the frontal wound in the right temporal area. I saw nothing to denounce his findings unless you think he was way off base with his conclusion that the frontal headshot was fired from the sewer drain. I'm open to the possibility. Garrison studied that possibility himself during his investigation leading up to the trial of Clay Shaw. This was one of the only times I've seen computer technology used in the assassination. A step in the right direction. So much is possible today with computer programs. We could take all of the pics and video and put them into a computer that can remember the data contained in each one and combine them all to make a recreation of the assassination. Assuming all the data matches up. And if not then we have verifiable proof that pics and video were manipulated.