The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Maybe part of a marked card operation or barium meal in a mole hunt Oswald was being used in by the CIA?  Just reading Dr. Scott and his thoughts on that possibility regarding the origin of Lee Henry Oswald, age height, and weight differences.  As Steve mentions it above was Harvey Lee Oswald a mole hunt dangle also?  Food for thought.

Ron,

 

My apologies to Jim. I am not trying to hijack this thread, and I won't, but what you mentioned is exactly what I've come to believe.  In the Harvey Lee Oswald thread, I wrote, "

"I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community."

 

I hadn't realized it at the time, but this is just what Peter Dale Scott was writing about in his book, Deep Politics Two.

Scott wrote:

“This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.⁹

A consistent pattern of behavior in these agencies since the assassination has been the tendency to suppress references to "Harvey Lee Oswald," and replace them by the more standard "Lee Harvey Oswald."¹⁰

^{9 .} For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49.

^10. Ibid. especially pp. 118-19.

 

I ran across this memo:

 

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD: SUBJECT - HARVEY LEE OSWALD

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18291&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=2&tab=page

The author of this memorandum is unknown. The subject of the memo is Harvey Lee Oswald. It looks like it dates from 1972.

“The DC/CI (counterintelligence) advised me that the Director had relayed via the DDP (Deputy Director of Plans) the injunction that the Agency was not, under any circumstances, to make inquiries or ask questions of any source or defector about Oswald.”

 

I think it was David Joseph who posted a reference to this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16542&relPageId=3

and I was reading through it as it discussed limiting the "tracing" on an individual to a bare minimum. I can't remember who was talking about limiting information on Oswald to the CI/SIG office and away from the Russia Desk and Oswald's 201 file - John Newman, or Bill Simpich, or somebody a whole lot more qualified than I am. Depending on where the name popped up, would an investigation of who had been tracing Harvey Lee Oswald have unearthed a mole? That's why I was so surprised when I read that on page 433 of Commission Exhibit (CE 985), it says that “Citizen Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960."

 

In that list of TSBD employees, it not only got Oswald's address wrong, but his name wrong as well. That suggests to me a pipeline of information that we don't know about yet. Jim asked where the Elsbeth address on the TSBD employee list came from. It's coming from somewhere. Dulles was asking Revill the same question.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

 

Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.

 

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall?

 

Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address?

 

Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also.

 

Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour----

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant.

 

This is one of the few times that I know of, that a Commission member took over the questioning. Usually it was left to one of the lawyers or the staff.

It's Dulles, not Rankin who keeps pushing Revill where he got this address. Is Dulles concerned that Revill knew about a connection of a Harvey Lee Oswald to Elsbeth St, and how Revill would know about that? Just about the time when Revill would have revealed when he obtained this address, he is cut off.

 

CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page

 

It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth.

 

I was looking at this list of employees and something hit me. The list was compiled by Roy Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section, and given to Jack Revill. Westphal and Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.

The second column has the abbreviations at the top that says, "REF. INT". at the top.

Most of the names have NONE listed, but there are three names that have a number alongside their name. I always thought that the INT at the top of the column meant Interview, but then I remembered something. In the book, No More Silence by Larry Sneed, Westphal says that later in the evening on the 22nd, he and Parks had returned to their office at the Fairgrounds to write up their Report of their days activities. While they were there, Gannaway called them and asked them to cross-reference the list of TSBD employees against the CID's Intelligence Files. When they did, they recognized Joe Molina's name. Gannaway told them to bring the whole file downtown.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy Westphal"&f=false

I realized that the "INT" at the top of the second column stands for "Intelligence", not "Interview".

 

With Harvey Lee Oswald, living at 605 Elsbeth is listed as having NONE alongside his name, this would indicate to me that Oswald was not in their Intelligence files, and that that information had come from somewhere else.

 

From the WC testimony of George Bouhe:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

 

 

Mr. LIEBELER - As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE - Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately lived.
Mr. LIEBELER - He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth?
Mr. BOUHE - And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.

Mr. LIEBELER - That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.

 

On November 28, 1963 George Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald.

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe

 

In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..."

“Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.”

 

1963 is a typo. This should be 1962

 

http://jfkassassinat...ny/voshin_i.htm

 

Mr. VOSHININ - Yeah - and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody - when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mr. VOSHININ - He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you."
I say, "What for?"
And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things - so I keep a file on everybody."

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=129757&search=Alexander_Kleinlerer#relPageId=9&tab=page

is also:

FBI - HSCA Subject File: Lydia Dymitruk (page 9 in the file, page 7 of the Report) https://www.maryferr...geId=9&tab=page

On December 3, 1968 the FBI interviewed a George Bloodworth, who was a Warrant Officer Candidate in the U.S. Army Helicopter School in Mineral Wells, Texas. He met George Bouhe in the apartment of Alexander Kleinlerer. Bloodworth had formerly been in the Marines and had been stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tunisia. He was very security conscious. Kleinlerer left the apartment to buy some food at a delicatessan, and Bloodworth and Bouhe got to talking. While they were talking, Bloodworth got the impresion that Bouhe was “one of us”, meaning an Army Intelligence Agent.

 

WC testimony of George Bouhe:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

 

Mr. BOUHE - For 9 1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W, MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.

 

WC testimony of George Bouhe (8H355 plus)

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

 

Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement I would ask anybody.
And for 2 or 3---or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. Bye."
Mr. LIEBELER - That would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work?
Mr. BOUHE - I did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know where----

Mr. BOUHE - Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't know what that means.

 

In her Chronologies, Mary Ferrell has the following notes, but these may be based on George Bouhe's WC testimony:

October 12, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says “Im fine”.

October 15, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says,“I'm fine.”

October 16, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe and says, “Im fine.”

October 17, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “Im fine.”

October 18, 1962 Oswald calls George Bouhe at 6:00 PM and says, “I'm fine.”

 

On October 19^th the calls stop. Oswald checks out of the YMCA and disappears for two weeks. He is working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but no one knows where he is living. Not his wife, not his bosses at JCS, not his co-workers, not his acquaintances.

According to the WC testimonies of Alexandra de Mohrenschildt and George Bouhe, it is a room somewhere in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald “found himself a place to live.”

On November 3^rd, Oswald surfaces again and moves to 604 Elsbeth. The owner of the apartment building (the Tobias's lived in 602).

 

In his WC testimony, James Hosty also told the Commission that he had tracked the Oswalds to Elsbeth back in March of 1963, but Bouhe's information predates Hosty's by about four months.

 

I personally believe, but cannot prove, that there is a flow of military intelligence that runs through the White Russian figures of George Bouhe and Max Clark.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

Steve - combine the very real possibility that some of the White Russians were military intel with the very real possibility that so were key members of the DPD such as the rather mysterious Westbrook, and all the Colonels. 

[Steve Thomas]

5 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - combine the very real possibility that some of the White Russians were military intel with the very real possibility that so were key members of the DPD such as the rather mysterious Westbrook, and all the Colonels. 

Paul,

 

Exactly.

 

PS: I used the term "White Russians" too loosely, I think. These are people who were involved in the oil and gas industry who were also Russians. It seems like the field of oil and gas exploration seems to pop up pretty frequently.

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

Why was Dulles pressing on this issue?

 

And why did Rankin call him off?

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Why was Dulles pressing on this issue?

Jim,

 

I think it's because Dulles realized that Revill knew something he shouldn't have known.

This was Revill's second appearance before the Commission. At Revill's hearing, he is being asked about this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=521&tab=page

This is CE 709 and the explosive revelation in it is what Hosty told Revill in the basement about the FBI knowing Oswald was capable of committing the assassination.

Revill's testimony is in May. Back in April he had sworn out an affidavit that what he wrote in that memo the previous November was true and accurate.

As late as May of 1964, it is the Commission who is telling Revill that he got the address wrong.

Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you?
Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.

Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you?
Mr. REVILL. The 605?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. REVILL. I don't know.
Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong?
Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is.
Mr. DULLES. As of the time.
Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me.

Mr. RANKIN. You found that out?
Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that?
Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it.
Mr. REVILL. Is this a-is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time?
Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time.

When was the last time you saw a Commission lawyer questioning a Commission member about his knowledge?

Revill was unable to tell the Commission how he got that information, and had to go back and find out.

What Reviil was told about how that information came about turned out to be wrong.

 

The information about the Elsbeth address is not coming from Revill, but through him.

 

As I said to Paul Brancato, there is a pipeline of information that we don't know about yet.

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

But couldn't he have got it from the other wallet?

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

But couldn't he have got it from the other wallet?

Jim,

 

Yes. He could have.

I keep forgetting about the other wallet.

 

As far as the library card being in the Bentley wallet...

Either Carroll didn't testify truthfully when he said no addresses were mentioned in the car ride; or,

Caroll lied when he told Revill that's where it came from; or,

Revill lied to Sorrells when he told Sorrells that's what Carroll told him; or,

Sorrells lied to the Commission when he told them that's what Revill told him (Sorrells).

 

On the day he testified, May 13, 1964, Revill said:

Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest.
Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you?
Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there.
Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information?
Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out.
Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then?
Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him.

 

Carroll had testified a month earlier on April 3, 1964.

Why would he tell the WC that no addresses had been mentioned in the car ride, and yet tell Revill on the afternoon of 11/22/63 that the library card had been brought out in the car?

Did Revill not know what Carroll had told the WC back in April?

 

This doesn't make sense to me.

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

It looks to me like they were trying to keep the existence of the second wallet a secret.

Which they did for over three decades.

[Gene Kelly]

Paul

It was Manuel Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight to a California gun shop.  After the assassination, Senator Dodd helped a Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald had been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk.  At the time, Dodd was on the payroll of the American Security Council, a group campaigning to use U.S. military force to oust Castro from Cuba and to escalate the war in Vietnam.

Gene

[James DiEugenio]

This is why I wrote this article in the first place.  See, I don't think that the Westbrook wallet did completely disappear.  It appears that they actually did use it, and they then deep sixed it. 

But I deliberately steered clear of things that happened at the Texas Theater and the intoxicating Mather story.  

Which if you follow the time line seem directly related.  And if you look at it within that triangular nexus, then the whole Spider's Web concept of the assassination begins to manifest itself I think.

I mean, as Armstrong asked: Who was the guy in the Mather car if Oswald was in custody?  Why did Mather insist on immunity before the HSCA?  Was it just a coincidence Mather was at TIppit's house that day?  As Mentzel may also have been?  Was the guy Bernard Haire saw go at the back, was that they guy T. F. White also saw in the Mather car?

These are questions that any real inquiry into the Tippit case would have had to answer if only for credibility purposes.  

Edited May 12, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

 After the assassination, Senator Dodd helped a Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald had been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. 

 

But Nosenko said KGB didn't even interview Oswald, right?

How could John Newman be so gosh darned wrong when he claims (as he did during his recent presentation in San Francisco) that KGB not only interviewed him, but that they did it twice?

 

(sarcasm)

 

--  T.G.

 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

OMG Tommy.  You cannot be serious!

You don't even know what Gene is talking about. 

So again, why do you jump on  a thread then?  Just to disrupt it?

[Robert Harper]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:28 AM, Gene Kelly said:

It was Manuel Pena who traced Oswald's telescopic sight

The same Manuel Pena who put young Miss Sorrento through a torturous interview following her ID of the lady in the polka dot dress at the Ambassador Hotel in 1968 when RFK was killed. I could barely stay listening to his aggressive, deceptive, brow-beating of this genuine witness. Pena, like Pierre Finck, was  one "they called for cover" as Harold Rydberg  explained in Law's book, In the Eye of History.

[Paz Marverde]

On 5/12/2018 at 3:39 AM, James DiEugenio said:

You cannot be serious!

No, he absolutely can not 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks again Paz.

And Robert, I think you mean Sandy Serrano on that.  But it was not Pena who did that with her.  It was Hernandez.  They were the two de facto leaders of the SUS unit which took over the RFK case for LAPD and made the girl in the Polka Dot Dress disappear.