Did Dr. William J. Bryan Hypnotize Sirhan?

[Ray Mitcham]

In the video of Darren Brown, how did the subjects stand lying in a bath of freezing cold water under a trance if the were faking it? The infra red images showed how cold their bodies had become in the freezing water.

 

[Ron Ecker]

I'll never forget a live show put on by a hypnotist when I was a kid. The hypnotist was called Preston the Great. The show was in the local movie theater. He would hypnotize people out of the audience and make them do all kinds of things on stage.

He hypnotized George Long, a teenager I knew. (My older brother's best friend.) He told George to give an impassioned speech but he could only use the ABCs, no words. It was the most hilarious speech I've ever heard. At one point George even paused to laugh at whatever he thought he had said.

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

     Before I started working in the late 80s on a psychiatric ward that specialized in treating MPD, (mainly in on-call coverage) I was skeptical about dissociative disorders.  At times, adult patients there would talk and act like four year old children, and describe amnesia and apparent fugue states-- losing time, finding themselves in places without knowing how they got there, and even buying things without knowing they had done so.

     I gradually realized that we all have "alter" ego/self states-- e.g, our 5 year old self, 15 year old self, etc.-- but that most of us have co-consciousness of our shifting ego states, and an integrated sense of self over time.  But some people do not.  Usually in response to childhood developmental trauma, they develop enhanced dissociative defenses against trauma, and "wall off" traumatic self experience from consciousness.

    I don't know a great deal about Sirhan's childhood, but susceptibilty to trance and hypnotic induction (and amnesia)  is often increased in people who experienced childhood trauma.

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

     Before I started working in the late 80s on a psychiatric ward that specialized in treating MPD, (mainly in on-call coverage) I was skeptical about dissociative disorders.  At times, adult patients there would talk and act like four year old children, and describe amnesia and apparent fugue states-- losing time, finding themselves in places without knowing how they got there, and even buying things without knowing they had done so.

     I gradually realized that we all have "alter" ego/self states-- e.g, our 5 year old self, 15 year old self, etc.-- but that most of us have co-consciousness of our shifting ego states, and an integrated sense of self over time.  But some people do not.  Usually in response to childhood developmental trauma, they develop enhanced dissociative defenses against trauma, and "wall off" traumatic self experience from consciousness.

    I don't know a great deal about Sirhan's childhood, but susceptibilty to trance and hypnotic induction (and amnesia)  is often increased in people who experienced childhood trauma.

From page 183 of Lie Too Big.  (first, Sirhan was born in 1944 in Jerusalem, the first Israeli - Arab war was in 1948 )  ""Sirhan's defense team opened with some background on him.  As a child in Palestine at the time Israel declared independence from it's British overseers and waged war against the Palestinians, Sirhan's family was forced to move from their middle class home to a decrepit two-story building that housed nine families of 50 people, with a single hole in the ground for a toilet.  … People died of starvation … tasked with fetching water from a well...the bucket he pulled up had a severed hand in it.  Another cistern of water wasn't drinkable because there were dead bodies in there. … Bombs rained down all around him.  Young Sirhan saw a grocer blown up right in front of him. … Another time, Sirhan found a man caught in a barbed wire fence who had been shot and had blood running from him. … Sirhan had an older brother named Munir who was run over by a car while playin in the street by someone attempting to escape gunfire."  (His youngest brother was named after the one who died).

Yes, he experienced trauma in his childhood. 

[Paul Brancato]

8 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

From page 183 of Lie Too Big.  (first, Sirhan was born in 1944 in Jerusalem, the first Israeli - Arab war was in 1948 )  ""Sirhan's defense team opened with some background on him.  As a child in Palestine at the time Israel declared independence from it's British overseers and waged war against the Palestinians, Sirhan's family was forced to move from their middle class home to a decrepit two-story building that housed nine families of 50 people, with a single hole in the ground for a toilet.  … People died of starvation … tasked with fetching water from a well...the bucket he pulled up had a severed hand in it.  Another cistern of water wasn't drinkable because there were dead bodies in there. … Bombs rained down all around him.  Young Sirhan saw a grocer blown up right in front of him. … Another time, Sirhan found a man caught in a barbed wire fence who had been shot and had blood running from him. … Sirhan had an older brother named Munir who was run over by a car while playin in the street by someone attempting to escape gunfire."  (His youngest brother was named after the one who died).

Yes, he experienced trauma in his childhood. 

This life experience is one I’ve heard personally from other Palestinian families. This was the unfortunate result of the negotiations that led to the creation of Israel, and it’s something never accounted for in discussions of Israeli policies. Just saying, even if it’s out of place here. The problem faced by Israel is the direct result of this unfortunate beginning. 

[W. Niederhut]

30 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

From page 183 of Lie Too Big.  (first, Sirhan was born in 1944 in Jerusalem, the first Israeli - Arab war was in 1948 )  ""Sirhan's defense team opened with some background on him.  As a child in Palestine at the time Israel declared independence from it's British overseers and waged war against the Palestinians, Sirhan's family was forced to move from their middle class home to a decrepit two-story building that housed nine families of 50 people, with a single hole in the ground for a toilet.  … People died of starvation … tasked with fetching water from a well...the bucket he pulled up had a severed hand in it.  Another cistern of water wasn't drinkable because there were dead bodies in there. … Bombs rained down all around him.  Young Sirhan saw a grocer blown up right in front of him. … Another time, Sirhan found a man caught in a barbed wire fence who had been shot and had blood running from him. … Sirhan had an older brother named Munir who was run over by a car while playin in the street by someone attempting to escape gunfire."  (His youngest brother was named after the one who died).

Yes, he experienced trauma in his childhood. 

Utterly horrific.  I didn't realize that Sirhan had experienced such severe childhood trauma. 

All children have a capacity to dissociate-- to escape from painful experiences through alter states of consciousness-- but this dissociative capacity is enhanced by childhood trauma.

No wonder Sirhan was so dissociative, and so susceptible to hypnotic induction.

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Rich, 

I guess a woman has never ever made you do anything you really didn't want too by the power of suggestion either.   

Congrats on growing up unaffected by physical and emotional trauma whilst young.....I do have two words for you when considering the outcome of children that suffer trauma and what type of person they grow into...."Bell Curve".

 

 

P.S    amazing TV program.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Adam Johnson

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

There are people with horrific backgrounds as children and THEY never killed anyone.  They managed to grow-up to be productive members of society.  Hell, I experienced trauma from my mom when I was a kid both physical and emotional.  I've grown-up to be successful person who has raised successful, productive children and who has enjoyed a 28 year marriage to a wonderful wife.  I never tried to hurt anyone.   I was simply able to move past my traumatic childhood like millions of other people.

      There are multiple determinants of the severity of PTSD and dissociative disorders.  Some people I have treated were shattered by experiences that others weathered.  In the case of dissociation, one factor is whether the traumatized child had sufficient mirroring and empathic support (from SOMEONE) to develop narrative memory-- an integrated sense of self over time, including an ability to integrate full consciousness of their traumatic experiences, rather than blocking (dissociating) them.

If you are as functional as you sound, my hunch is that you had SOMEONE in childhood who supported and empathized with you sufficiently to help you integrate your traumatic experience into a continuous narrative memory-- rather than having a fragmented (dissociated) self.  The hallmark of dissociation is amnesia. If you can remember your normal, and traumatic, childhood experiences, you don't have a dissociative disorder.

As for Sirhan, how do you know that he killed someone-- as opposed to firing blanks?

Edited February 22, 2019 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

RP: There are people with horrific backgrounds as children and THEY never killed anyone.

 

Sirhan never killed anyone either.

[John Kozlowski]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

RP: There are people with horrific backgrounds as children and THEY never killed anyone.

 

Sirhan never killed anyone either.

Do you believe that Sirhan fired blanks? I dont ever remember hearing that until Lisa Pease wrote that in her book. 

[James DiEugenio]

She actually was not the first person to postulate that.

Its mentioned in the Turner/Christian book.

But even if you discard that, Sirhan still did not kill anyone.  Since it was not possible for him to have shot RFK.

[John Kozlowski]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

She actually was not the first person to postulate that.

Its mentioned in the Turner/Christian book.

But even if you discard that, Sirhan still did not kill anyone.  Since it was not possible for him to have shot RFK.

I agree 100% he did not kill anyone. I just dont remember ever reading about the blank bullets. 

I'm not sure how anyone can say that he did. Besides RFK being shot from behind there is so much more evidence proving multiple guns were used.

Edited February 22, 2019 by John Kozlowski

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Rich Pope said:

What I don't believe in is if you have a crummy childhood, even a horrific childhood, it will cause you to grow-up to be a crappy human being.  I was totally honest and used myself as one example of someone who was abused both physically and mentally by my own mother and I didn't grow-up to be a broken person who lashes-out at society because I got the short end of the stick.  As for hypnosis...I believe in trances.  I mean, how many guys have been watching sports on tv and their wives are literally screaming at them to get their attention?  We are so focused on the game we are said to be "laser focused".  Or if I'm in a chess match at a tournament.  No one can break my focus because I'm in a deep trance, focused on the game.  What I don't believe in is making someone do something under hypnosis.  That's garbage.  That's a parlor trick for entertainment.  Daydreaming is a form of hypnosis because you are in a trance while you are daydreaming.  A mild form of epilepsy is when you have "stare seizures" (Absence Seizures).  I'm sure many of you have been staring off into space not really focused on anything and others can't get your attention.  It's even difficult for you to break out of that seizure even when you realize you are doing it.

It's complicated.  Are you familiar with "automatic obedience," which is exhibited by some people during episodes of catatonia?

As with MPD, people need to observe these phenomena to realize that they are real.

Some people respond to childhood trauma by becoming resourceful, empathic humanitarians (or veterinarians in the case of one of my former patients.)

Others become serial murderers-- if they develop a pathological "identification with the aggressor."

To be honest, I have never used hypnotic suggestion(s) and/or psychotropic drugs to induce a patient to commit a crime.  What sort of person would do such a thing?!

And, yet, we know that the CIA's MK-ULTRA doctors experimented with those techniques.

[Ron Bulman]

While there are still more interesting points regarding suspicion that Dr. Bryan could have hypnotized Sirhan, two more are interesting in particular (to me at least).  One is Sirhan's notebook, the other proximity.

RFK must die repeated in rote in the notebook.  Years later the title of a book on Sirhan.  Not the only politician done that way in the notebook, a couple more at least.  Then there is "Salvo Di Di Salvo Die S Salvo". … "DieSovo". Sirhan recognizes none of this as his conscious doing and is disturbed by it.   Albert DeSalvo is supposedly the Boston Strangler because Dr. Bryan led him, DeSalvo under hypnosis, according to others present, to believe he was substituting his wife for the women he supposedly killed.

F. Lee Bailey brought Bryan all the way across the country from LA to Boston to do this.  After Bryan stuck a hypodermic needle in Bailey's hand, without pain to Bailey, to prove his point that hypnosis is real.  

Bailey lived in LA.  Sirhan lived in a suburb.  In spite of this and Bailey's other national credentials the LA DA chose to pay to have Dr. Diamond flown in from San Francisco for all the prosecutions hypnotization and testimony in Sirhan's trial.  Naturally he badgered and led Sirhan under hypnosis.

[Ron Bulman]

On 2/22/2019 at 9:50 PM, Ron Bulman said:

While there are still more interesting points regarding suspicion that Dr. Bryan could have hypnotized Sirhan, two more are interesting in particular (to me at least).  One is Sirhan's notebook, the other proximity.

RFK must die repeated in rote in the notebook.  Years later the title of a book on Sirhan.  Not the only politician done that way in the notebook, a couple more at least.  Then there is "Salvo Di Di Salvo Die S Salvo". … "DieSovo". Sirhan recognizes none of this as his conscious doing and is disturbed by it.   Albert DeSalvo is supposedly the Boston Strangler because Dr. Bryan led him, DeSalvo under hypnosis, according to others present, to believe he was substituting his wife for the women he supposedly killed.

F. Lee Bailey brought Bryan all the way across the country from LA to Boston to do this.  After Bryan stuck a hypodermic needle in Bailey's hand, without pain to Bailey, to prove his point that hypnosis is real.  

Bailey lived in LA.  Sirhan lived in a suburb.  In spite of this and Bailey's other national credentials the LA DA chose to pay to have Dr. Diamond flown in from San Francisco for all the prosecutions hypnotization and testimony in Sirhan's trial.  Naturally he badgered and led Sirhan under hypnosis.

Did we note Bryan told the prostitute(s) who serviced him regularly (I know, automatically a questionable source for some) that in addition to telling them he had hypnotized Sirhan he was with the CIA.  Something a agent would never do but a psychiatrist/hypnotist in their employ that was a known braggart might.