David Josephs

BUMP C'mon DVP... ANY order or evidence that Kleins shipped a 40" rifle for C20-T750 orders.... EVER. Or where they got their 36" carbines which were shipped as ordered from Feb 62 thru Feb 63... You're so good at posting uncorroborated garbage and then running off... but when do you actually use that big brain on the questions asked? Westra claimed they did NOT mount scopes onto 40" rifles - BUT THEY "UNDOUBTEDLY MOUNTED SOME".... so to YOU DVP, this means it happened - and you have the gaul to call others out on reaching conclusions on the barest of evidence? Why do you feel WESTRA was 1) qualified to make the comment, 2)knew one way or the other Westra was not the gunsmith, he was a shipping/receiving guy... And you still have not offered a single example of a single order EVER where a C20-T750 resulted in a SCOPED 40" rifle being shipped... ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM will prove your case Dave... Why do you suppose the FBI avoided all those other orders like the plague? Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle? Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp (SUFFICE TO SAY - MR SHARP WAS NEVER CALLED UPON BY THE WC, BUT HERE IS HIS HSCA CONTACT REPORT thanks to Baylor's Armstrong collection The FBI has him put scopes on 12 more rifles ???) Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was? Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods. Mr. BELIN. In what capacity? Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager. Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963? Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766? Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this? Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock. Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here? Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed. So again, one of the ONLY OTHER WITNESSES to the printing of these Microfilm orders supposedly PROVING that Hidell ordered C2766, and in the same room as Waldman and the FBI... and not only was he not pushed on anything in his WC testimony... the HSCA did not feel it necessary to follow-up. David, to put it bluntly - your attempts at proving anything regarding this rifle is pathetic, uncorroborated, incomplete, and woefully inadequate. You can't find the Federal processing marks on the MO, or why they are not there You can't understand what rifles were used prior to the FC shipment of Feb 22, 1963... the TS order was cancelled yet the ad runs for a year offering a 36" carbine with scope, C20-T750... what where they shipping? You can't find how/who/when this rifle was retrieved or any of its path to the 6th floor... But you can conclude it was Oswald's.... you sir, are an insult to intelligence and should be ashamed of the way you rewrite and obscure history... Shame on you Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W." Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1? (THIS IS THE KLEINS ORDER FOR RIFLES - NOT ANY ORDER THAT GETS SHIPPED TO A CUSTOMER) Mr. WALDMAN. It is. Mr. BELIN. And that is who? Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper (SUFFICE TO SAY MR KASPER WAS ALSO NOT CALLED UPON BY THE WC)

Sorry for forgetting the link Chris... I rarely make that mistake. I thought it was the work of Morningstar... my bad here's the link http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm Thanks for clearing that up DJ

So Robert - do you dismiss Euins and Brennen for what they actually saw... Brennen did not see shots fired even though he was looking at the window at the time and Euins here SEES the shooter.... a dark skinned man with a bald spot.... While Brennen I can dismiss as "cooperative to a fault" Euins has little motivation to lie... and then there are the Rowland window men... SOMEONE and more where seen on the 6th floor from 12:10 to 12:15 to 12:30.... whether shots were staged or not... IDK... Yet we again have that ground level 1st noise... and the strange looking UP for it afterward.... Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again. So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun? Mr. EUINS. No, sir. There are the Mooney men, the Baker/Truly man, the "man" who gets off the elevator as Sawyer gets on, people exiting the back door per Carr and others, Lovelady explain how easy it is to just walk into the back entrance... Hosty comes back and no one checks his ID upon entering the TSBD.... it was FUBAR in the 15 minutes afterward.... I think anyone could easily walk out of that building..... no?

I don't recall writing that... and I know I have never said Prayerman IS Oswald... I did post: I think one has to accept that the Baker/Truly lunchroom scene did not happen... that they encountered someone on the stairs that was neither LEE or HARVEY, and if that really is HARVEY on the steps he seems overly relaxed afterwards to be just standing around... he has to know some of the things going on around him... A few thoughts Bill.... Truly does not say anything about this encounter to Lumpkin or Fritz when he informs them that OSWALD is missing... He can't possbily know where everyone of his employees is, yet if his testimony is correct he sees Oswlad not 20-30 minutes before in the lunchroom... within 2 minutes of the shooting... If this had actually happened - I wounder how he gets from Oswald in the lunchroom - the last time Truly sees him - to "he's the only employee missing" Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth. There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys. So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there. First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no. Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom? Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no. So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that. So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving. Seems that HARVEY LEE OSWALD was in the corner there giving names - or was this just the order it was typed up... I can't seem to find the original handwritten lists that were prepared by Westphal. In either case Westphal to Revill to Gannaway, if he was already gone, how does he make the top of the list and with the wrong name? With regards to Baker.... how can he sign an affidavit to one story that has no lunchroom at all and then change the story later... and still be believed, given how it was not possible unless Oswald had remained in the lunchroom the entire time and was simply doping his thing. How does Baker's evidence, in the order it was offered, support the lunchroom encounter even happening... The only thing we know of OSWALD's telling the story is what Fritz wrote in his notes.... "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" yet he also has Baker's statement, the affidavit, of the ONLY DPD cop to have seen Oswald other than Craig who he didn't believe anyway, and there is no mention of the 2nd floor or a Coke... and finally Reid... who I happen to believe sees Oswald in the Lunchroom before she heads out.... and sees him again walking thru her office FROM the direction of the stairs/lunchroom - but she never witnessed this Baker/Truly encounter, so I fail to understand how she offered a detail account of that encounter.... Please help me understand why a same day affidavit is not more believeable than testimony and withheld interrogation notes from well after the fact.... and since the person REID sees is only wearing a TSHIRT... I am under the impression this is LEE and not Harvey... and is why the story had to be changed.... Even in the countless scenarios... whoever STAIRWAYMAN is... like PRAYERMAN, we should be able to figure it out by process of illimination - who would Truly know well enough to say he works here and was above the 4th floor within 2 minutes of the shooting... Dougherty? I value your opinions quite a lot Bill, so when you say you believe the lunchroom encounter story... I'd like to know how you reconcile all the contradictory info DJ

Hey there Paul... Morningstar did an amazing job and while I disagree with his JDT/JFK swap... the info he provides regarding Tippit's whereabouts makes it pretty difficult for him to have been in DP as Badgeman (who does not actually exist other than as an image so ingrained in our minds it has become difficult NOT to see "him"... but a different coloring of the Moorman image and we can see only sky, leaves and shadows.... except for that shooter to the west.... Add the "facts" about where Tippit was and I believe another person can be taken off the list as being the "man" in the badgeman illusion. If you take a close look at any "badgeman group" enlargement... one is struck by how light - and from what source - but how light reflects off the "badge" and "patch" in the midst of shadow... or any of the other white spots which appear in deep shadow yet on the front of these three men... Just sayin... before we talk about Tippit as badgeman... don't we need to prove there was a badgeman. Kinda like talking about Oswald's bringing a rifle to work when we cant get the rifle into Oswald's hands. DJ At 12:17P.M. Tippit radios the dispatcher and says "be out of the car for a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View." This information comes from the Bowles Channel 1 transcript. Close examination of this document shows that the Police Dispatcher did not transmit an order for Tippit to go to this location on Bonnie View. Perhaps as Tippit was patrolling his district after lunch, he noticed something suspicious or was stopped by a citizen and asked to investigate whatever was going on at the 4100 block of Bonnie View Rd. 4100 Bonnie View is 7.5 miles from Tippit's home with a normal travel time of 24 minutes, Tippit Travel Time could have been 18-20 minutes this would have given Tippit plenty of time from 11:50A.M. when he cleared from lunch to travel to the location in his patrol district where he got out of the car at 12:17P.M. In Judy Bonner's book "Investigation of a Homicide"on page 71 she states "The Bonnie View call turned out to be a dry run, an elderly woman who had thought she had seen a man trying to burglarize a house next door. Tippit politely took down her story, made a fruitless search of the neighborhood, returned to his car to write out a report, then radioed in for another assignment." I do not know how Judy Bonner obtained this information? Tippit was killed one hour later and a search for the report mentioned has proved unsuccessful. Whatever happened at 4100 Bonnie View did not last long since Tippit called back the Dispatcher 3 minutes later at 12:20P.M. and reported "78 clear." Even though Tippit was not ordered to the 4100 block of Bonnie View RD. by the Police Dispatcher, there is no hard evidence to disprove that this event was genuine. There is also no hard evidence to prove this event was staged in any way, since the location he stopped at was known to the dispatcher and potential witnesses could have been located if the situation called for it. The best information available places Tippit at the 4100 block of Bonnie View Rd. between 12:17 and 12:20P.M. on 11/22/63. Shortly after publishing this article Irish researcher Chris Scally sent me a letter he received from the late Larry Harris in 1984 that contained information about the 4100 Bonnie View call. Larry wrote “In 1978 I interviewed the manager of a grocery market at 4121 Bonnie View; He told me that during the noon hour on 11/22/63, he caught a woman shoplifter and phoned the police; it was Tippit who responded. The store manager knew Tippit because it was almost invariably Tippit who responded to calls for shoplifters. The manager told me that Tippit placed the woman in the squad car and left. So indeed Tippit was on an investigation at 12:17 P.M. nevertheless, it is disturbing and perhaps significant that this incident is not reflected more substantially in the tapes or transcripts.” Larry Harris’s investigator Ken M. Holmes Jr confirms this story. In 1963 Hodges Super Market occupied 4121 Bonnie View Road (1963 Dallas City Directory). On my last trip to Dallas in November of 1997 the small shopping plaza that contained this store was vacant with for sale signs on it. Who this shoplifter was, what happened to her, how Tippit was really alerted to this location and what impact this could have had on the events that follow are still not known. This story has confirmation from the grocer who was a known and interviewed eyewitness, where as the story from ‘Investigation of a Homicide’ that was previously reported in the original article has never been confirmed.

OK Bill, I'll bite... Please help me understand why Baker's affidavit and his testimony are so different... just cause the 2nd floor lunchroom charade exonerates Oswald IF TRUE, does not mean it happened like that... right? It is my opinion that Truly, Baker and ultimately Fritz (with his notes) change the unidentified person coming down the stairs into the lunchroom encounter. If anything, leaving OSWALD where Baker sees him on the stairs in the affidavit is much worse for Oswald, which I think is what you are saying - So the discussion becomes about CAN HE GET THERE IN TIME, rather than WAS HE EVER THERE AT ALL, which is exactly what was desired. Who else was NOT OUTSIDE or at a window, worked for the TSBD/Truly enough that he'd be easily identified, and would be coming DOWN from above the 4th floor? and why does this person need to remain anonymous? Add now add the LEE/HARVEY scenario, especially if Truly is aware of it and knows that it is LEE coming down the stairs... Baker would know no better. No, Prayerman is not yet established as Oswald.... or whether LEE and HARVEY were on premises at the same time - as it would appear... unless Lee is Prayerman

I'll ask again David... for almost a year KLEINS advertised and sold (and presumably shipped) a C20-T750 described as a scoped 36" "carbine" - WHAT DID THEY SHIP FOR THESE ORDERS DAVID AND WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES? (but no worries I don't expect you to have the chops to address the question beyond the last time you ansered it - "Who cares about other orders" LMAO) And I was right of course... you cannot discuss the evidence that would prove anything since the evidence is GONE.... If there was only one other order in which a C20-T750 was ordered and any one of the other 99 FC rifles from that shipment were sent... we'd have our prooof. If there was an example of any other FC rifle shipped with a scope on it... more proof for the FBI against Oswald You don't want to think about what Kleins was fillingorders with prior to Feb 1963 cause it messes with yout neat little explanation - can you prove that VC836 and C2766 are on the original order form Dave? All we have is a copy of a microfilm copy that has this written in PENCIL. RE the Money order... which bank or postal office processed and paid the money order? The lack of ethics you show by only posting only the FRONT is par for the LNer course... Let's look at the real crux of the matter shall we? Waldman is asked about the one and only KLEINS stamp on the back of the Order... does he confirm it is the SAME stamp... the one used at his office? or something similar? So show us Dave... where are the FRBS processing marks? The USPS marks? Why are the stamps CLOSE but not the SAME? (didn't Oswald have a stamp making kit in his possession?) Dave - you remain completely unable to address the issues and keep side-stepping the actual evidence that needs to be discussed... Why can't you address the PROOF that would show what KLEINS SOP was for Feb/MArch 1963 and for the month prior? Afriad you and the FBI might have learned that none of the FBI generated Kleins BS evidence is worth the paper it was copied on. And since you're going to continue to pull out a straw man argument everytime you are cornered like this - our "discussion" is over until you show up with something to defend yourself other than your not-to-be-believed "word" on the matter.... You going to put up, shut op, or just go home with your tail between your legs again? The stamps are NOT the same and there are no other "official banking" marks on the thing... but YOU can show us how it was paid? the floor is all yours..... Chapter 7000 PROCEDURES FOR PROCESSING POSTAL MONEY ORDERS Section 7020 -General Information And FormatAll post offices sell paper money orders to the public. These money orders are paid at commercial banks and other depositaries of the Federal Reserve System and sent to FRBS. The FRBs will charge the account of USPS for the amount of the paid money orders and report these charges on the daily transcript of the U.S. Treasury. The FRBs then will send the money order documents to USPS. Upon receipt of the money order documents from the FRBS, USPS will reconcile and audit the documents. USPS will report all money order transactions on the Statement of .Transactions to the Deposit Reconciliation Branch (TFM 4-7095) at the end of each month Section 7040 -Processing Fit Money OrdersBatching and Listing Fit Money Orders. Paper money orders are MICR printed with the routing code (including a routing number of 0000-0020 or 000000204) and the serial number with check digit. The routing number is also preprinted in the upper right corner on the form, which is in the location and front as prescribed by the ABA. FRBs will process FIT money orders as follows: Receive money orders from banks and process on high speed equipment in the manner most compatible with the processing of other categories of cash items. Prepare batches of no more than 500 items. Insert (in numerical sequence) USPS batch Locator Control Documents so that one is filed at the beginning of each batch of money orders to be read. Create a paper-tape list of serial numbers with optional check digit and amount of each money order read. The list will show the batch number and a subtotal for each batch with an overall total of all money orders listed on the paper tape. The total amount of fit items should be entered on PS Form 1901, code 100. Money orders bearing unreadable MICR characters in the on-us field are not to be rejected and handled as mutilated. List the characters that can be read on the paper tape as a reconcilement aid.

I cannot let DVP do this over and over and get away with it... He cannot prove it was OSWALD's OWN rifle... He can't prove or corroborate or authenticate ANY of the rifle evidence - yet you make such unbelieveably naive and insulting comments... are you really this lost ? It is your place to get the rifle into the man's hands on the 6th floor David - go back as far as you like, Italy for all I care - as there is nothing you can do other than manufacture evidence (like your buds the FBI) to support what you keep claiming to be true. If you could do that you would... instead you ramble on about what SHOULD have been or COULD have been.... instead of actually addressing what WAS. HIDELL's coupon ordered a C20-T750, a scoped 36" TS rifle ordered by Kleins in Jan 1962, although they never got any TS rifles in January 1962... So the ads for a 36" scoped rifle starting in March 1962, BEFORE THE CANCELLED TS SHIPMENT... which rifles were shipped for those orders David? Which rifle was shipped for ALL the orders of C20-T750 between March 1962 and Feb 1963 and where did they get their TS rifles? Unless they shipped the replaced FC rifle for the TS... yet they do not get rifle one until FEB 22, 1963. I'll ask again David... for almost a year KLEINS advertised and sold (and presumably shipped) a C20-T750 described as a scoped 36" "carbine" - WHAT DID THEY SHIP FOR THESE ORDERS DAVID AND WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES? (but no worries I don't expect you to have the chops to address the question beyond the last time you ansered it - "Who cares about other orders" LMAO) See DVP, you can't even prove what was processed at Kleins let alone get a rifle into Oswald's hands..... you remain a very poor WCR apologist who simply cannot pull it together to AUTHENTICATE any of the so called WCR evidence... so you're left doing the ole soft-shoe every time, hoping we're all mesmerized by the fancy footwork and not aware of the complete crap you offer up as an argument. (although the gunsmith says only 36" rifles got a scope, and NO ONE talks to the shipping clerks, warehouse men, or ANY of the correct employees) Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W." Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1? Mr. WALDMAN. It is. Mr. BELIN. And that is who? Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra. Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company? Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper. Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now? Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here. Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company? Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company. Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company? Mr. WALDMAN. Correct You wanna guess whether the WC called Westra or Kasper? and maybe you heard of Feldsott and yet ANOTHER c2766? Go back to bed Dave... your time has come and gone - all that's left is the comic entertainment you provide by defending the actual killers of the man...

If you are so certain, based on "He thinks that captain Will Fritz might have mentioned something about that, but that Mr. Fruge was not sure on this point," then no, we are not on the same page. If we're going to regard the exalted law enforcement people of the original investigation of Oswald with some caution, we're going to have to regard the exalted law enforcement people of the later investigations with some level of caution, too. Certainly you see the hypocrisy of not doing so. I'll have more on one of those officers in my book. Okay Roy... I was careful to state that this amounts to circumstantial evidence PILING UP... that this is not just some random factoid thrown out that stand alone... Smith, the maps, his friends, most items of Chermaine's story to Fruge checking out.... Did Fruge see these maps? IDK.... but he felt it important enough to ask about them... I have come to the conclusion that those outside the cover-up who stumble upon elements of the conspiracy can be assumed reliable until proven otherwise, whereas those involved like Fritz, Hill, Stringfellow, Day, etc... we get the opposite... Total BS until corroborated and authenticated.... either way both sides of the story requires corroboration. Will you be telling us now that Smith had nothing to do with JFK, Oswald, Bannister, etc.... or just that this "FACT" is about the same as most other anti-(Harvey)Oswald-did-it info... circumstantial, since hard evidence of the conspiracy is not so easy to come by? Wonder who spooked Fritz into ignoring Fruge. Cheramie told him she had worked for Ruby, of "Pinky," as she knew him, at his night club in Dallas and claimed Ruby and Oswald "had been shacking up for years.(74) Fruge said he called Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department with this information.(75) Fritz answered, he wasn't interested.(76) Fritz and the Louisiana State Police dropped the investigation into the matter.(77) Fruge offhandedly asked Buras if the Committee had found the diagrams of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza that were supposed to have been located in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment in Dallas.

No worries Pat... unlike so many these day... Just cause we disagree - passionately from time to time, does not mean we aren't on the same side trying to see the light of Day (pun intended) I'm pretty sure this came from Jack White... I had not seen what appears to be the remnants of a sticker (I don't think lifting a print would leave that much of a mark from the tape would it?) Yet it appears not to be there on the rifle at NARA.... Take care DJ (edit: the sling also is vbery suspect Pat.... could not be used to hold the rifle or steady it while shooting... yet is homemade and basically worthless - any ideas? Wasn't it a clue leading to the guy who riveted it together for "Oswald"? the guy at the garage I believe.... Kind of a useless add-on... given the rope we see in the BYP used as a sling....

Well Roy... given the virtual free ride the FBI/SS investigation gave these men in terms of incriminating evidence and their involvement... and person A & B are law enforcement officers related directly to the case... then again.... FACTS are pretty hard to come by in any area... at least corroborated physical evidence... as opposed to the layered circumstantial the keeps leading to the same people. FACT? not in a court. but you cannot deny that maps had been discussed, sewers discussed, and Smith/Anti-Cubans/CIA is at the center of it... Conclude what you'd like... why do you think Fritz even mentions it at all - enough so that Fruge remembers it.?

Sorry David, this statement is about as misleading and dishonest as they come... A paper trail for the Kleins rifle would include examples of C20-T750 orders shipped FC instead of TS rifles... the claim the FBI and Kleins is making... instead the microfilm with the orders is gone The trail would include a payment stamp on the Money Order, not a Kleins stamp alone The trail would include the signed receipt for picking up the rifle The trail would include the fact that 40" rifles rec'd scopes and were sold that way, instead of ONLY the 36" models The trail would explain how a package to HIDELL does not get refused at OSWALD's POBox The paper trail is full of holes with suggestions of the FBI creating the one and only link between the order and the name... Waldman writing VC836 and C2766 IN PENCIL on the form Without those handwritten references there is nothing to related C2766 to Oswald or Hidell for that matter... Were these on the original forms? Don't know DVP... the originals are GONE... convenient, right? And if we go back farther into the history of C2766, it gets even more dubious... having to be one of only a handful which did not get their ID marks ground off.... - convenient. David... you make generic, blanket statement that require evidence and you provide none... it IS cause you deem it so, not cause the evidence supports it... or you wander off into a strawman Tell me David, you believe Alyea... why did Fritz reach down and pick up the shells from where they were PLANTED only to restage the scene again and again... for the DPD cameras? Or is only a PART of what he says to your liking so you only say THAT part is correct? ======= Here is the full image Pat... Is this Studebaker or Day instead? I thought it was from Alyea Furthermore, wasn't the rifle found on the opposite end of the 6th floor? Appears as if there is light coming in the windows here... and NOT where the rifle was found... thoughts?

Well Roy... if you believe the testimony of anyone outside the conspiracy... In Jim Garrison's investigations I gathered "On page 208 of "A Farewell to Justice" it states that then Dallas PD police captain Will Fritz stated that they found a map of the Dallas\Dealy Plaza sewer system in the apartment of CIA operative Sergio Arcacha Smith. Would need to do more research or ask Jim D. But of the people to believe in this case, Lt Fruge remains at the top of the list. If the maps are there, Rose is involved and her story has elements of truth. Louisiana State Police Lieutenant Francis Fruge is one of the principal witnesses in most accounts of the Rose Cheramie story. Roy, isn't the point - the view from that location and its accompanying escape route options - coupled with accounts of a z film in which JFK "rises up out of his seat" at the head shot - make the "crazy sewer theory" plausible... it was one of very few angles where collateral damage was minimal... How many people said that shots sounded like a motorcycle backfire, a ground level noise... if one sewer shooter why not more? In the end though Roy it is not rock solid, only highly circumstantial, appropriate and in context. I'll have to be satisfied with that... Enjoy your saturday DJ

DVP... why argue to one thing no one is stating here... ?? A Mauser being identified does not change the rifle which was carried out by Day or is now CE139... by your own admission these men KNEW it was a 6.5mm Italian rifle the evening of the 22nd... Yet Weitzman doesn't sign the typed version of his affidavit until the 23rd... Boone is also aware of the ID... yet both men specify the weapon THEY SAW as something else... The same holds true of the paper bag in the corner and clip... supposedly. Items NEVER photographed on the 6th fllor yet claimed to have been there by DPD/Sheriff Affidavit and testimony... THAT evidence is okay to accept though cause it implicates Oswald.. The FACT he couldn't have made it, got it home, got the rifle into it, got it back to the TSBD or any other such things MEANS it was either MADE AT THE SCENE, or MADE AHEAD OF TIME... Either way direct evidence of conspiracy. The CLIP is only seen protruding from a DIFFERENT RIFLE than the one identified... So stop making an argument about Alyea (and if we believe him David, we believe Fritz' contamination of the crime scene before any accurate images could be taken. Glad to see you are finally building a case for the correct reasons. Setting up your posts against unknown "conspiracy theorists" since you dont like to address us directly is cute and all... but shows the weakness and misdirection of your posts and arguments. Who you talking about David? WHO labels a Mauser the murder weapon as opposed to the weapon identified via affidavit by two men and confirmed by two more... as being at the scene of the supposed "crime". While the actual rifle was found and moved to the 6th floor from somewhere else - according to evidence offered. Doesn't MATTER what was reported in newspapers David... what matters is whether the evidence available was created and/or corroborated... maybe you can explain why/how they specified a specific make and caliber, if they never saw it... AFTER the rifle had already been identified AT THE SCENE with both of these men standing there. That is called evidence of a 2nd rifle David... unimpeachable evidence that on the 6th floor at that time a 7.65 Mauser was laying there... that it goes no further... that for hours after the fact the DPD CSS unit rearranged and rephotographed the "crime scene" as if it were in its original condition... while the WCR conclusions neglects to make these FACTS known. So Dave... try to stick to the subject discussed and not your own tautological strawman.... ---- Pat - that is a frame grab from the Alyea film.... as he picks up the rifle there are a couple instances which clearly show there is not CLIP protruding from that rifle, nor is there one stuck inside which would move when the last bullet was ejected via the bolt... the clip disengages when the bullet is loaded, not ejected.... The CLIP was a plant. brought to the TSBD by one of the DPD... unless you or DVP here can post evidence of if being seen or found or photographed or spoken of anywhere in the TSBD. David... you seem like a smart guy... why cling to such easily proven wrong, or poorly supported arguments which you keep offering with anything and everything but the actual FACTS. Shims and alignments of scopes in DC has something to do with a rifle that was never fired that day? and it is discussed as if it matters. As if the PLAN was to take an disassembled rifle with a scope already attached to a part... get to the window without knowing when the motorcade will actually pass or at what speed... assemble the rifle with a dime? (no less) acquire and reacquire the target via a scope... the first shot odds of hitting ANYWHERE but where the scope was zeroed in upon was huge... And without knowing if the scope was accurate after this shot on a moving target... or how fast the moving target would be going... he reacquires the target IN THE SCOPE.. and fires again... the target moves again... and he would still have no idea of what ZEROED IN means as a shooter... THIS was the plan of the lone nut marksman you're defending? While the not found in Dallas, the prints found at the FBI labs is from the left hand on the left side of the trigger guard... ... How many times do you need to read YOUR star witness say this? Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it? Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope. Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know? Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not. Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw? Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun. and THEN not only hit two out of three, but two solids hits (maybe shot 1 was aimed at the heart) and one miss by 20 yards. With this scope and that distance, he missed high and right out of this view... while resting a rifle on a stand of boxes.... or took a shot thru the trees which deflects yet leaves no copper, nicks Tague, who does not have the timing exact... and the shooter STILL has no idea where the shot is going by looking thru the scope for the next shot as the limo emerges from a tree at some unknown speed - assumably, with the SS driving and a shot fired, they would be going like a bat out of hell to clear the scene.. but instead they slow down to a crawl - possibly stop (I was not there, many say it did) and the shooter looks thru the scope again... the scope that wasn't on the rifle taking the shots according to the man who DEFINITELY can ID LHO as the shooter, but just didn't..

What Dunkel and the video fails to show: In 1963 there was no Blacktop, let alone inches of it blocking the view.... But LD isn't going to mention that.... or which anti-Castro Cuban was found with maps of the sewer system and they PAY him for this....

Little dogs that bark behind chain link fences always act more ferocious than they can be when the gate is left open... What else is there to expect from a one trick pony - fair and intellectual analysis of the info? Standard Dunkel MO = "History says...... and until you change history.... blah, blah, blah"

Simple question then Robert... Given the opportunity to write up whatever they saw, Boone and Weitzman are specific about the Make and caliber of said rifle.... Enough so to sign their names to affidavits... why declare a MAKE and CALIBER when they are present when DAY holds up a M91/38FC, MADE IN ITALY 6.5mm carbine? If we are going to believe that in 1963 these instruments of evidence were taken MORE seriously than today, in general... Why is it so easy to dismiss? Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building I have NEVER claimed the rifle in Day's hands was a Mauser... I don't think anyone is saying that Robert... what is being said is that RIFLES were in the TSBD that day. and how THAT rifle gets to THAT spot is anyone's guess.... bringing it up from the 3rd floor is such a stretch? We have all sorts of people wandering in the TSBD between 12:30 and 1:30... Agree? We have Sawyer dropping men off on the 4th floor Baker and Truly Men coming down the stairs in plainclothes Men going from the 6th to the 5th floors from the 1st and 2nd... etc.... Do you honestly believe that removing a 7.65 MAUSER from the TSBD between 1:00 and whenever you like was not easily done by either DPD personnel, Sheriffs, ATM, self identified SS agents, etc.... Somehow Monty comes out with a bag we KNOW Oswald did not make... yet THERE it is.... We have a clip somehow JAMMED back into a rifle which obviously does NOT have that clip when Day holds it up, yet does when he is walking on Elm... how did it get there? Robert - I greatly appreciate you being a voice of reason with regards to rifles, ammunition and their workings..... I disagree with you that the BYP and NARA rifles are the same based on the simple fact that to an item, the physical evidence is designed to implicate Oswald and nothing else... they do not create a web of self reinforcing evidence which SHOULD be the case if Oswald actually did any of this.... the rifle evidence does not even corroborate itself let alone stand on its own. The FBI created, destroyed and altered enough examples of evidence to render virtually ANYTHING THE FBI TOUCHED useless as evidence related to Dallas that day. Yet we continue to validate this terible evidence by even acknowledging there is a discussion to be had. I will post this again and again and again until it sinks in... DVP - everything you and the other LNers base thier arguments upon is a lie - and it takes WC staff lawyers to inform you about it... REDLICH is pretty clear here.... Why would he write such a thing to RANKIN no less, in April 1964 ?? We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin. <snip> I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.

On a serious note... I think those who are informed about the assassination have simply gotten tired of trying to "discuss" the case WCR/HSCA apologists who invade threads with nonsense about rifles and photos and the medical evidence as if it was REAL, AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE of what happened. Their argument remains: "The wrong puzzle pieces put together upside down gives us a perfectly accurate picture of the assassination" and yet, when asked to turn over a piece and authenticate it... they get beligerent... When WE turn over a piece and show how it doesn't even belong in the box - how it has nothing at all to do with an accurate picture of the assassination... we get called kooks and the trolling continues. DVP's point about a Mauser on the 6th floor...for example... There are TWO AFFIDAVITS IN ANY FACT which state clearly that the rifle THEY FOUND was a 7.65 Mauser. TWO AFFIDAVITS from a Deputy Sheriff and a DPD Officer... corroborated by a Detective and the Captain of Homicide.... Any of "YOU" believing it has nothing to do with the evidence and what it says. DVP would have you dismiss these identifications, on a legally binding document, as a "belief" issue as opposed to an evidence issue. Boone and Weitzman were not duty bound to describe the caliber and make of the rifle they found... that rifle was found on the 6th floor is more than enough... but they did not stop at "a rifle"... they were very specific, one man selling rifles as a sideline and the other a sheriff with eyes and some level of intelligence. And they did not wait days, weeks or months... these AFFIDAVITS were written the same day and the next... and signed. Officially the rifle is found at 1:22... Yet Truly is on the 6th floor in the location where the rifle was found between 1:00 and 1:20.. Truly is on the 6th floor when the rifle is found... Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. So once again we are expected to address a WCR apologist over the AFFIDAVITS signed by the two men who found a rifle and identified it specifically as a 7.65 Mauser when as plain as day, the rifle says "Made in Italy" and "6.5" and then we are told it matches the BYP rifle.... So as a lowly Conspiracy Realist I ... and compare the NARA rifle with the BYP rifle..look for who said what around the time the rifle was found... is there MORE EVIDENCE that the rifle at NARA is NOT the 7.65mm rifle these men are describing? Yet we need to have this conversation, this "debate" repeatedly since the DVPs of the world want so badly to believe it was Oswald alone, and any evidence pointing in a different direction is purley imagined. So what's our choice? Let the DVPs spread disinformation about the case as FACT... and try to move on to more productinve activities... or be vigilant enough to counter the DVPs with the same old evidence that has proven Conspiracy from day one... the WCR and HSCA itself... while trying to believe there is not some organized effort to keep the "dabate over conspiracy" alive. So WHAT to do? DJ (ATF AGENT) Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html After Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig viewed the sniper's nest, where he saw three spent 6.5 millimeter cartridges, he began to search for a weapon with Boone. "We started toward the northeast corner of the building. There was a stack of boxes at the head of the stairwell and Boone looked into it and said, 'Here it is. Here's the rifle.' We didn't touch it until Captain Fritz and Lt. Day of the Dallas police got there. They took some pictures of the rifle and Day pulled out the rifle and handed it to Captain Fritz, who held it up by the strap and asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman had joined us and Weitzman was a gun buff, and he was very good with weapons. He said, 'It looks like a Mauser.' He walked over to Fritz, and Captain Fritz was holding the rifle up in the air, and I was standing next to Weitzman, who was standing next to Fritz, and we weren't more than 6-8 inches from the rifle, and stamped right on the barrel of the rifle was '7.65 Mauser,' and that's when Weitzman said, 'It is a Mauser,' and pointed to the '7.65 Mauser' on the barrel." [21] Boone later testified that Captain Fritz also thought that the gun was a Mauser. [22] Boone testified in two written reports that the gun was a Mauser. Weitzman signed an affidavit the next day stating that the rifle he and Boone had found was a "7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it." [23] Fritz would eventually testify to the Warren Commission that the gun found on the sixth floor was Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano. Weitzman also recanted his belief that the gun was a Mauser, though he was never shown the Mannlicher-Carcano by the Warren Commission to confirm the fact that it was the rifle that he had seen on the sixth floor. An FBI envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122) dated 12/2/1963 that was released in 1995 by the AssassinationsRecord Review Board ARRB had a cover that detailed the contents of the envelope as being a 7.65 mm rifle shell. The shell was allegedly found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, though nothing was known about this envelope or rifle shell until the release of the 1995 records. The whereabouts of the 7.65 mm rifle shell is unknown. Researcher Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko first reported the envelope. The envelope had the following label: "7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/1963 ... determined of no value and destroyed." Arthur Pineda's analysis of photos showing the rifle in Lt. Day's possession seems to heighten the controversy concerning the ammunition clip and the identification of the rifle. Dallas Police Department pictures show Lt. Day dusting a rifle for prints while in the Texas School Book Depository. The photograph shows that the rifle has no ammunition clip. However, another picture of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository shows a rifle with an ammunition clip "clearly visible protruding from the bottom of the magazine of the rifle." This photo also shows a rifle with sling swivels mounted on the left side of the weapon, "while CE 746 B (a Warren Commission enlargement of CE 133A, which is a photo of Oswald with rifle) clearly shows that Oswald's rifle had the sling swivels on the bottom. The rifle that Lt. Day is carrying simply is not Oswald's rifle." [24] On the afternoon of the shooting, KBOX, a Dallas television station, broadcast that "a rifle has been found in a staircase on the fifth floor ... Sheriff's deputies identify the weapon as a 7.65 Mauser ... " [25] To add to the confusion WBAP-TV reported that a British Enfield 303 had been found in the Depository. [26] Dallas police officer Lt. Day took the rifle to police headquarters on Friday afternoon and dictated a detailed report of the weapon's description to his secretary, but the report was never included in the Commission's exhibits. [27] Later that night at a televised press conference, Dallas District Attorney Wade declared that the rifle found in the Depository was a 7.65 German Mauser. [28] Lt. Day released the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to the FBI at 11:45 p.m., November 22, 1963. The CIA produced a document on the 25th of November 1963 that created more confusion by declaring " ... employed in this criminal attack is a Model 91 rifle, 7.35 caliber, 1938 modification ... the description of a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error. It was a Mauser." [29] Oswald told his inquisitors that he had seen a Mauser in the Texas School Book Depository. On November 20th, Warren Carter, an employee of Southwestern Publishing Company that occupied part of the second floor in the Depository, brought a Mauser rifle and a .22 calibre rifle for his fellow employees to look at, a fact that was verified by numerous Depository employees. [30] Curiously, Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano clearly has "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5" stamped on the side of the barrel. Though Oswald's rifle was clearly marked, Boone, Weitzman, Craig, and Fritz at one time stated they thought the gun was a Mauser, and Lt. Day's report is not available. Weitzman's description includes the exact calibration of the scope and the color of the sling. Though it is very clear that what the officers thought they had found was a Mauser, the Warren Commission explained away this problem by stating"Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range... thought it was a Mauser ... [and eventually] police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle." [31] But what the officers found may very well have been a Mauser considering what Frank Ellsworth saw in the Depository that day. Ellsworth was an agent of the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency and was in his office not far from the Depository when he was told of the shooting. He ran to the Depository and entered the building with Captain Will Fritz. Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." [32] Ellsworth participated in a second search of the Depository after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963. The gun that was found was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano hidden behind boxes near the "stairwell back in the northwest corner ... I have the recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs he probably pitched it over behind these books." [33] Ellsworth has stood by his original assessment of where the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in a 1993 interview with authors Ray and Mary LaFontaine. The HSCA investigated the misidentification of the rifle and concluded that "many bolt-action rifles are so similar in profile that misidentification may occur." [34] Jim Garrison investigators interviewed David Kroman, a prisoner of Leavenworth Penitentiaryand an acquaintance of Richard Case Nagell, the ex-C.I.A. agent who has been linked to the assassination through researcher Dick Russell. According to the Garrison investigators, Nagell told Kroman that a right-wing extremist group financed by H.L. Hunt and some Bastista sympathizers had plotted to assassinate Kennedy in Miami in December 1962. As Nagell had told author Dick Russell, the intent of the assassination would be to rationalize an attack on Cuba. Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building. [35] And Mr Truly - who is on the 6th floor between 1pm and the finding of the rifle... yet never SEES the rifle being found... Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz? Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you? Mr. TRULY. Yes. Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found? Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me? Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in, the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz. Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly. While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was. Mr. BALL. About that time? Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there. Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. (DJ: Fritz returns to the TSBD and is out front at 12:58) Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

If you are referring to XXXXXX and XXXXXX posted by XXXXXX and XXXXXX It think if we were to XXXXXXXXX the XXXX and then XXXXX with the source, we could probably XXXXXXXX from now on

Makes sense Robert... yes... yet wouldn't the escaping pressure move toward the opening in the skull, the bullet hole... before the pressure breaks open another area of the head that does not have any openings? Or do the fracture lines allow for any area of the "balloon" to burst open... My real point is we do not have ANY fragment trail toward the lower rear due to the work Humes did removing brain and other tissue, not cause there should have been one there, necessarily. In the thread with PAT... the argument is that the autopsy results suggest multiple shots hitting JFK... when we ask PAT to differentiate the evidence of shots with the evidence of what HUMES did and the resulting autopsy descriptions... he cannot. The evidence we have only shows the massive extension and disruption of the skull wounds which were performed between 6:30 and 8pm... I ask again, can anyone imagine the Parkland ER trying to save a man's life with the Bethesda xrays offered as his "condition" at the time he was shot.... A single bullet tho the head from front to back becomes 3 separate lines of damage which obliterate the skull so much so the scalp and skull fall apart when moved and the man's brain basically falls out... the spinal cord and other AUTOPSY PROCEDURES having already been done to the cranial vault prior to 8pm. But we agree that a FMJ bullet does not disintegrate at those speeds nor does it leave clouds of micro particles.... so whatever hit him was NOT a 6.5mm FMJ bullet from the rear.

Now... if he was saying HE killed JFK... then we'd have something

Hey Vince... Send a note to Blaine or Hill with Katz's flyer attached... "Hey, this guy is stealing your thunder... he worked with you?" and as Ruby said... sit back and watch the fireworks

A couple of Fensterwald pdf's about a French Connection - he mentions Dinkin early on... FYI http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEgQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xiconhoca.org%2FPDF%2FDDeRoux%2FApossiblefrenchconnection.pdf&ei=qSngUrHYOo70oAS9lIIo&usg=AFQjCNGlUAdfqtkVQMv8eC_sT9fn1RIeEA http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjfk.hood.edu%2FCollection%2FWeisberg%2520Subject%2520Index%2520Files%2FS%2520Disk%2FSouetre%2520Jean%2520with%2520aka's%2FItem%252011.pdf&ei=qSngUrHYOo70oAS9lIIo&usg=AFQjCNHmrpkCbs9jfTLzdRUAK45zureGkQ

Did that John... and neither Spartacus or the Ed Forum are on the first 15 pages... Mary Ferrell is on page 13.... !! You may want to talk to Google+ about this John... if you were expecting to show up in the search.... The 6th Floor Museum is on page 2. FYI DJ

Glaser Safety Slug, Inc. developed the first frangible bullet in 1974 to provide reduced ricochet and over-penetration danger with improved stopping power over conventional bullets... Now we have bullets traveling back in time as well.... ?? I realize that hand-made bullets and suppressors could have been used... and probably were.... if larger pieces are used in the filling of these bullets I imagine the damage would be as devastating and could account for the large "fragment" blowing the back of the head out while leaving smaller and smaller particles elsewhere in the skull/brain... Thanks Evan DJ