David Josephs

Excellent Sean... I had made the argument to Cinque and Fetzer about the changing of the clothes which in turn makes Bledsoe a tool of the DPD and it impossible to use Altgens and the arrest shirt for any comparisons .... Here is the final inventory page 11199G, a closeup of the first batch of clothing NOT NUMBERED past 455. Oswald (via Fritz and Bookout) tell us he changed shirt and "briches"... and put them in the bottom drawer of the dresser... obviously dirty... and here it is listed without an inventory # - these are the items Stovall and Rose initialed before releasing to FBI... notice what looks like "RF" Robert Frazier's initials on the front bottom - left side of shirt Do you know when and where THEY SAY CE151 was found? and please notice the next items of clothing... ce156 and ce157... the "gray" slacks he was said to be wearing... by Whaley, Frazier, Bledsoe although none were sure.... Cheers DJ

Cliff... before I begin I want you to know I agree with the conclusion that the holes in the shirt and jacket make the SBT impossible. Whether exotic weapons were also used... IDK but given it existed and these boys liked their toys, why not? My concern with this approach is that it does not address the larger picture.... Gerald Ford fixed it and the WCR lied about it to support a conclusion that HAD to be accepted.... while the physiology is impressive... this overlay tells the entire story. SBT=impossible... we get that and so do MOST of the "newbies".... Public attention will wane since there is little new or JUICY to keep the attention.... other than the discussion over the shameful way Dallas treated the anniversary. At 6:45 EST (5:45 Dallas time and just over 5 hours after the shots) the Surgeon General of the Navy with the help/knowledge of Admirals Galloway and Burkley remove evidence from the medical record that points to more than one shooter.. This occurs during PHASE 1 - "the Commie did it possibly with the help/direction of Castro" A Castro/Commie conspiracy to kill JFK SUPPOSEDLY was the desired result of an investigation so the MILITARY could be unleashed. There is good evidence that this was called off DURING THE FLIGHT BACK and that Oswald was to be the one and only.... at the same time evidence in Dallas is NOT TAKEN to support a GK shooter. No photos of the footprints and "assets" already working the crowd..... How would THEY know at 1:30 in Dallas that evidence of a communist conspiracy WITH OSWALD would also not be acceptable... Unless there was foreknowledge - which in reality os the entire ball of wax.... FOREKNOWLEDGE removes all doubt... Also during this flight, arrangements are in the works for personnel (Humes/Boswell/Kenney/Ebersole) at Bethesda to receive JFK's body at 6:45. Humes testifies to such. Bethesda and the DC district are run by Galloway and Wehle (Lipsey is Wehle's asst) Kenney is in the room with Hume and Boswell when JFK's body is "unzipped" - they would also be aware of the caskets and the returning of the body to the navy ambulance. Thanks to O'Connor and a handful of others, we KNOW what happened in that morgue prior to 8pm. WCR: (NOT possible unless the body is removed from the PARKLAND casket) Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately? Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination. HSCA: (He's still off by an hour or so... and does not address what the MDW was doing) Mr. CORNWELL. Approximately what time of the day or night did the autopsy begin? Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening and after some preliminary examinations, about 8 or 8:15. Just very briefly, in what order or sequence did you conduct the autopsy? ARRB: (And here it is... corroboration of the story of half dozen other men... ) Q. During the autopsy, was the room quiet and hushed or noisy and bustling? How would you describe the scene? A. It varied. We were there for a long time. We were there from about 6:00 or 6:30 in the evening until 5 o'clock the next morning. Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy? A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately. As we both know the Casket does not even arrive out front until 6:55... is offloaded by the SS/FBI at 7:17... is REloaded and offloaded again by 8pm. And yet this information floats out there without serious concern or comment to its impossbility.... or the implications it has to the testimony of these morgue "workers" ... Like the bullet holes, THESE cannot be moved or changed or made to disappear by the CIA/FBI/SS or anyone else. And yet we are discussing evidence that has no authentication, no chain of custody, nothing that would lead ANYONE to conclude it was a representation of JFK at Parkland... Just the kind of dead horse stuff you mention in others.... the medical evidence is as far from "evidence" as it gets... So what is the "big juicy" that may keep the interest of the common person? That the FBI lied and fabricated/altered/destroyed evidence? Too much there to use - overwhelms the unitiated... How about Hoover sending an Agent to Ft Worth TX on Saturday morning the 23rd to get the asst principal out of bed to TAKE the original school records of Lee Harvey Oswald from 1954 and yet another agent to NOLA to question the employees, managers and owners of Pfisterer Dental about 1956, 1957 and 1958. What pray tell did HOOVER KNOW that prompted him to gather up materials from Oswald's past, specifically these two places and times, in the first hours after charging Oswald with JFK's murder? Oswald was an FBI informant ... If HOOVER needed to protect that info from coming out... what do Stripling Junior High School 1954 and Pfisterer Dental 1958 have in common? What was so important in Oswald's past that HOOVER needed to keep info from 1954 hidden?

Yes, HARVEY ... and it's too bad you aren't "into" that scenario Thomas. It remains the only plausible answer to many. many questions (i.e. why does HOOVER need to send agents to Stripling Jr High in Ft Worth and Pfisterer's in NOLA within 12 hours of Oswald being charged with JFK's murder - 11:30pm 11/22 -, and to the Red Cross within days for the 1956-62 original docs... any reason the 7 year old 1956 JR High Records, the 1956-58 employement records and the 1956-62 Red Cross Dependency Discharge records of the 1963 accused assassin would be of ANY VALUE to the prosecution? Have you EVER seen a letter TO Oswald in RUSSIA from his mother or brother? He has 1956 W-2's but not the stack of letters from his mother and brother....) I'd suggest reviewing CE1961(military records of Oswald in the USMC) followed by the FELDE statement in ce1962.... which contradicts the Marine's info... or the handwritten notes by HARVEY upon his return to the USA detailiing where he was and when... they agree with FELDE and NOT the LEE history we get in the USMC docs... One of the greatest failings imo of our research community is that we KNOW the FBI created/altered/destroyed evidence... yet we have trouble believing that Hoover was aware of these two men and knew exactly where to go to make their original records disappear (from 5-10 years before, NYC was 1952). Add to this the pile of evidence from every corner of the world and from each and every year of his existence that supports there being 2 men who became 1 set of historical documents .... and you have one of the most important safeguards that we'd NEVER know who LHO was... You think Hoover made sure to confiscate James Earl Ray's Jr High School records on the day following the killing? What could possbily prompt Hoover to do this in Oswald's case ?? =============== With regards to the timing of the tramp photos.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 According to these statements the amount of time between the shots and the moving of these men thru DP was not almost 2 hours.... but instead not very long after the assassination. I've looked at the shadows in other images and the ones in the tramps photos actaully do appear to be only slightly longer in relation to the subject's body. If you have better info on time stamping the photos... please share... At this point in time I think LEE is preparing to assist or actually do the shooting in the killing of TIPPIT... LEE, the bigger man, MAY have been the owner of the medium sized jacket that was left to be found....... but that's just a thought. LEE had already left when this photo of HARVEY - if it is - was taken. I believe it was taken around 12:40-12:50. please correct me if I'm wrong. All this is speculation anyway... for if it was much later, that couldn't be HARVEY... the man arrested at the theater. DJ

Much appreciated Thomas.... and this by default helps to support Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald near the front entrance shortly before the motorcade arrived... Which also helps support the notion that MRS REID sees LEE and not HARVEY... leaving the TSBD.... Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. One of the three tramps photos shows what appears to be OSWALD near the entrance of the TSBD talking to a policeman(?) he is in long sleeves (far right) I happen to believe the lunchroom scene NEVER OCCURRED and was created by Truly/Baker and Fritz to negate Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald right about the time of the shooting. The very FIRST LINE of the FIRST PAGE OF FRITZ's NOTES starts off with "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" Who starts off by writing on the RIGHT HAND SIDE of a page and working back to the left? And don't you suppose OSWALD would know it was TRULY who was with the "off" who came in? No mention of that at all... Not sure at all which question this is an answer to, if it was made up, or what order the questions where asked.....

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom? Thanks DJ

Simple question DVP - almost twice as much evidence comes BACK from the FBI then was sent to the FBI.. Each item of EVIDENCE that belonged to OSwald was initialed and photographed IN DALLAS before sent to DC the night of the 22nd. There is evidence given to the FBI on the 26th WITHOUT the DPD initials - and items NOT LISTED on DPD inventories, yet was returned from the FBI...? as we see, ALLEN DULLES felt it necessary to rewrite Cadigan's testimony - the man that fingerprint tested and desilvered HUNDREDS of items that weekend while there is only one page of "inventory from Dallas" which Drain signed... Good trick turning what looks like a handful of items into HUNDREDS. Drain signed Inv sheet 11176-G on the 22nd. Lt. DAY writes in his report that Drain and the FBI took ALL the evidence... that the CSSS collected.... except for the one 6.5mm hull Fritz keeps, LHO billfold with 16 pix, and a notebook from Beckley he had since the 22nd..... ooops. The OSWALD PERSONAL PROPERTY EVIDENCE is - in very large part - FABRICATED BY THE FBI over the weekend following the assassination... when and if DVP can authenticate any single piece of evidence we can go from there... In the meantime... he argues conclusions based on inauthentic evidence and tautological statements ... a pure WCR apologist at his best...

So one wonders if the cartridges Fritz picks up to show to Alyea are the same ones in evidence (or were ever there when they arrived at that corner) considering this FBI report from 11/23 stating that somehow 3 spent cartridges by the window does not constitute "physical evidence" along with a paper bag, boxes with potential prints, the movement of boxes AFTER the shots... from this summary there was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL on the "sixth" floor at least...

It is not until CE357 that we are finally offered ANY EVIDENCE related to the assassination of JFK in the H&E section of the 26 volumes. So which is the FIRST WCE that implicates OSWALD ?? Good luck with that. Mr. SPECTER - Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast? Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now. (ATF AGENT) Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time." Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle--- Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner. Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor? Mr. SAWYER. Yes. Mr. BELIN. What side of the building? Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Now onto September 14, 1953... We've seen how the records for an OSWALD child are woefully incorrect. That the Truant/YOUTH HOUSE child could not attend PS44 for the # of days offered, between MArch 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 (end of semester) as his attendence records start up again on Sept 14, 1953. On Sept 24, 1953 (after 9 days of school) His mother tells Carro http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0163b.htm that LHO is doing better and has been elected CLASS PRESIDENT ... She also confirms his stay at YOUTH HOUSE from April 16 thru May 7th which again, is not reflected on the attendance records but DOES confirm he was NOT at PS44 during this time. There are only 50 days of School between March 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 and we KNOW he did not attend at all from Jan 16, 1953 thru March 22, 1953.... So how exactly can LHO attend 109 days of school in the span of time with only 50 days available? Progress reports from the school continue to be very derogatory for this CLASS PRES... who was in 8th grade not 9th at the time - unless we are talking about two different people... 9/24/53 : Mrs. Oswald telephoned on this date, to state that she would be unable to appear in court. She pointed out that she felt that there is no necessity for her to return to court as the boy has made a marvelous adjustment . Lee re turned to school on May 7th and had a very good attendance record thereafter. At the present time he is in the 9th grade at P.S . 44 and recently had the honor of being elected class president. 10/21/53 : Progress which was requested on 10/16/53 from P.S . 44 received on this date . Boy indicates that since the term commenced he has been present in school 21 3/2 days and absent 1-3/2 days. His conduct is described as unsatisfactory. The school reports that the child has shown no improvement . Mrs. Oswald does not cooperate with the school authorities. She did not answer to a summons to come to school about her son's welfare . ("During the past 2 weeks practically every subject teacher has complained to me about the boy's behavior . He has consistently refused to salute the flag during early morning exercises . In many rooms he has he done no work whatsoever . He spends most of his time sailing paper planes around the room. When we spoke to him about his behavior, his attitude was belligerent. I offered to help him he brushed out with, "I don't need anybody's helpt .") (Signed) H. Rosen, Teacher) 12/21/53 : Material on Lee Oswald returned from Court Clinic this date. A letter was attached indicating that the family's lawyer to inform us that the family is moving to New Jersey. (Material filed in case record .) Yet when we see the same sequence of events presented as WCE2223 - the "Family Lawyer's Letter" and mention of moving to NJ are removed... MO tells Carro that she "has to move from NY" but gives no reason... and is gone on Jan 12th. One wonders with what car and what money does MO and LEE leave NYC... ?? 12/17/53 Received telephone call from Mrs. Oswald who stated that she found our card on returning home from work and wished to know the reason for our contact . Explained to her that Mr. Carro, probation officer of the Children's Court had asked that become interested in her son Lee. She seemed quite disturbed stating something to the effect that how long was this thing going to last because since the boy had returned from Youth House, he had been attending school each day and from all accounts doing well. Could sense that Mrs . Oswald was rather disturbed about this matter and tried to give her an idea of what the Big Brother program was. She seemed to calm down considerably and suggested that Lee stop in at the office some time during the Christmas holidays . She did not take too kindly to this idea and advised that we would stop in at the home some evening as soon as possible . 12/23/53 Called at the home of Lee Oswald but no one was at home . Will call again.

I am reviving this thread after a year and change as I have spent a considerable amount of time with the subject and author. I have concentrated on Sept 1952 thru Jan 1954 as this appears to be one of the first major discrepancies in the record for LEE HARVEY OSWALD (there are some earlier concerns over an address on San Saba whcih was purchased by LEE's mother, yet the woman remembered as living there is the short/fat mother of HARVEY. CE1384 has some very interesting yet completely conflicting information in it. 1) Page 693 is a "7th Grade ONLY" version of the COMPLETE record found on page 697: In the real world this form is updated year to year and added to as needed, it is not rewritten when a child changes schools, moves or any other activity. Please note these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FORMS with different handwritting - there is NO RECORD of how he got his grades at PS117 (no Cumulative record like ps44 on p.692) and NO OTHER WCE that deal with his NY schooling other than those A bit further in the same exhibit is p.699 which is on the same form as the "7th Grade Only" form on p.693 yet this too has been COPIED OVER from the original on page 693... and then completed with the information from p.697. (whether 697 or 699 came first is unknown - what IS KNOWN is that there are two IDENTICAL records for one LEE HARVEY OSWALD. 2) The FBI reports all mention that LHO attended JHS44 for 171 FULL DAYS and 11 HALF DAYS from 3/23/53 thru 1/12/54; with a total of 18 full days ABSENT and 11 half days ABSENT. (CE1384) From MARCH 23, 1953 thru JANUARY 12, 1954 there are only 133 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS AVAILABLE Furthermore... LHO was remanded to the YOUTH HOUSE on April 16th until MAY 7th. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0260b.htm and obviously did not attend PS44 - he is at YH for 11 SCHOOL days leaving only 122 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS available for him to attend - NOT TO MENTION THE 18 days and the 11 half days he ALSO was absent leaving only 104 FULL SCHOOL DAYS LHO could have attended this school. 3) In 6th grade he was repeatedly described as the LEADER of the group.. the BIGGEST and STRONGEST who would fight and win in most every case. His school records from PS44 - 7trh GRADE show him as a 5'4" 114lb boy. His class picture from 6th Grade has him in the back row where most of the tallest are placed (at least that's what I remember when I was in school in the 60's). the BRONX ZOO photo, supposedly taken in the summer of 1953 (one month prior to this School Record being created) has what I found to be a standard height guard rail of the time, 36" high divided in two. Does not appear to me that HARVEY here is 10 inches taller than the 54" mark. Furthermore, CE1384 also shows he was the same height in March 53 NOR does he look like the 6th grade LEE Dr. Kurian was the first doctor to see LHO at the NY DOMESTIC RELATIONS Court of NY. (Dr. K goes on to be the President of the Amer Psych Assn) The FBI never spoke to Dr. K even though he wrote a letter to Jackie in which he states: When I saw this slender, underdeveloped boy I sensed what was wrong. This was not a quiet and obedient child but one who was withdrawn from the real world and responded to outside pressures to that degree necessary to avoid the disturbance of his residence in a fantasy world. Dr. Kurian was surprised when told that Oswald was 13 years old as he appeared quite small for his age and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-foot-7). This photo is taken in Aug. 53 Dr. K sees LHO in March/April 53 There is more, much more, even from just this very small window of time including the Oct/Nov visit of John Pic and Robert Oswald to the 1455 Sheridan address in the Bronx. While John describes the isit vividly with he and his wife fixing Robert up on a double date... Robert claim NEVER to have been in NY until late 1953. At this "dinner" LHO does not join the family for dinner, does not speak to anyone, and what was once a very close relationship with John stemming from time spent together at John's apartment in Manhattan, has deteriorated into a very cold and indifferent shoulder to his oldest brother. John Pic correctly picks HARVEY from LEE in the LIFE mag spread he is questioned about. Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that? Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. Here is a map to get an idea of the locations wer are talking about from the Trinity School, to Jacobi, to JHS 117 & 44, the PIC apartment and the two locations MO/LHO lived. DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE WCR AND WCDs. THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS FROM EACH OF THESE SCHOOLS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS THEY WERE PICKED UP BY ASST DIRECTOR MALONE OF THE FBI WITHIN 20 HOURS OF THE ASSASSINATION (PRIOR TO ANY DISCUSSION WITH MO ABOUT WHERE LHO WENT TO SCHOOL WHICH OCCURS IN EARLY DECEMBER). ALL THAT ARE LEFT ARE THE FBI COPIES AND UNSIGNED FBI REPORTS FOR THAT TIME.

Interesting stuff Josh... thanks. I wonder if the "on and off again" motorcycles related to a certain time period... 1) as they turned the corner 2) As they straightedned out in fron of the TSBD 3) when the limo slowed to a crawl/stop Making these sounds of course makes sense to mask gunshots... doing so prior to the motorcade arriving puts that sound into the consicousness as something not threatening ... ?? Was there a supervisor in DPD specific to these motocycle cops who might have suggested such behavior? Need to go look DJ

I've searched a bit and there are a few sites that have this recording That does not sound like Jackie to me... the accent on specific words is simply not right... especially if you listen to her other recordings yet I do not find where this call was even considered a fraud... has this call been authenticated as really her? Another "pillow talk" sounding call... from 1964 but you can barely hear her... And more from the Schlesinger interviews... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQgt9MhpPk Maybe the others are right and she is playing him as she always played him.... it just doesn't ring true to me... DJ

Pat - Give the people what they want and they will buy People do not WANT to be told our government is guilty of this... they don't WANT the red pill and see the world as it really is... even as they KNOW it to be true. By reading a BOOK or seeing a TV SHOW that tells them some crazy guy did it, and their government did all it could.... they can sleep at night. Amazing isn't it... when nasty frauds make millions selling a lie, that's AMERICA... but when a truth seeker earns a few dollars with a book it's OPPORTUNISTIC and SHADY. None DARE call it Conspiracy.... Peace DJ

While I hate this to sound defeatist... we KNOW the Truth and it scares the living heck out of anyone who knows it for what it is - the TRUTH about humanity. We investigate the assassination because that's exactly what the SPONSORS wanted... to have it remain a question with many answers... rather than a single answer with many questions. What other event created the mass of "available" info that this does? What other event (other than MLK and RFK) remains in the public eye ... has the wealth of evidence of all sorts... and remains not only unsolved, but virtually unknowable in its breadth and depth... AND STILL HOLDS THE PUBLIC INTEREST There is simply no example in all of human history to show that humans are a cooperative species over the long term. In fact, we are called the human RACE... we define our existance by evolution's SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST Someone wins and many, many lose. Especially in the dark areas of the world where no one is watching. TRUTH IS everyday there are a few winners and massive losers... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt I find this to be the truth in almost all aspects of life. At a certain level, life is a string of accidents and happenstance. But when there are clear winners and losers... those that benefitted and those that suffered.... You can be fairly sure that a specific group of our species is working together to achieve the end result. I agree with some of the points Bill makes... not for justice and not revenge... yet I disagree that TRUTH is the reason we do this. Look at what the TRUTH movement did to cigarette smoking... we KNEW the truth about cigarettes... it became a matter of awareness. (and people KNOWING IT WILL KILL THEM still choose to smoke) With this movement there was something to UNDO... get people to stop smoking, to ban 2nd hand smoke, to protect ourselves and our children. Our expectation is that humanity itself will change... that those with the power will somehow become benevolent as opposed to having alterior motives in EVERY case. The TRUTH? Humanity, you never had it to begin with. Charles Bukowski Humanity - : the quality or state of being humane Definition of HUMANE 1: marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals

You don't have the first clue bobby. Do your research and get back to me when you have. Pot calling kettle black that's it buddy - defend your three little inches to the death...

That you can't comprehend physics, old man, is no surprise... you can't grasp simple math See if you can follow along MM, The TOWARDS motion is for a millisecond as the bigger heavier BAT overcomes the force and moves the ball.. What happens when you try to hit that same ball on a tee with a feather? the ball overcomes the force of the feather and doesn't move... In our real world example... when the bullet hits JFK in the right temple the skull resists yet is overcome by the force of the bullet and moves in the opposite direction... just like hitting the ball on a tee. The CAUSE of the forward movement is not a shot from behind... but a shot from the front. And then there's that little matter of the fraudulent physical evidence, as I posted... the xrays do not match the photos and for good reason... the photos were taken before they did anything to the head... the xrays, after. ============ When the bat hits the ball, it exerts some force on the ball. However, does this force account for the distance the ball travels? Let's think about it. Just imagine a home run hitter like Babe Ruth hitting a stationary ball. How far do you think will it go? Will it go more than four hundred feet? Probably not. While the kinetic energy transferred from the bat to the ball accounts for some of the energy of the ball, it does not account for all. So where is this mysterious energy coming from? The answer is conservation of momentum. What is momentum? Momentum is a vector describing a "quantity of motion" or in mathematical terms p (momentum) = mass * velocity. I just said that momentum is conserved (almost, read more to find out why) but how do I know that? I know that because of Newton's 2nd law: F=ma (Force equals mass times acceleration). As was explained in the position page, acceleration is dv/dt, which is the change in the velocity (dv) divided by the change in time (dt). "Change in velocity?" you ask? Well, the change velocity (dv) is the difference between the current value and the last value of the velocity. For our purposes, we can say that dv=vf-vi, or, the change in velocity is equal to the final velocity minus the initial velocity. We also know that in a system with no external forces, the total force, F, is zero. This is because if you push against a wall, that wall pushes back against you with the same amount of force. So, assuming there are no external forces and plugging dv/dt for a into F=ma: F = m dv/dt = 0 Multiply both sides by dt m dv = 0 Now plug in vf-vi for dv m vf - m vi = 0 the mass times the final velocity minus the mass times the initial velocity equals zero From that last equation, it tells us that for the same change in time (dt), the difference between the final momentum and the initial momentum always remains the same. Okay lets think about this more. Conservation of momentum means that harder you throw the harder the ball will bounce back at you. Just think about throwing a ball against a solid wall. The harder you throw the ball against the wall, the harder it bounces back. That is the reason it is easier to hit a home run on a fastball than on a curveball. Conservation of momentum also means that the bat can transfer some of its momentum to the ball. This is why it can be better to use a heavier bat if you can swing it just as fast. The momentum is the product of the mass and the velocity, so a heavier bat swung with the same speed as a lighter bat will have more momentum. Now, you may have noticed that I said momentum is "almost" conserved. Why isn't it if the equations say it should be? Well, momentum is always conserved in a closed system, but a baseball game in the real world is not a closed system. The bat and the ball are elastic materials. When the ball hits the bat, the ball will be squished to a certain degree. After few milli-seconds, it rebounds back. This contraction and rebound action is caused by the heat, or energy generated by friction, and some momentum is lost, or transferred elsewhere, in this action. There are also other factors that can use up energy, however, the concept of conservation of momentum is still relevant in predicting the range of a baseball.

Martin... The third law of physics is well understood... the skull MUST move to resist the frontal shot... a shot from behind carries with it much more baggage... Using the available evidence... please explain WHERE the shot entered the back of the head... WHERE it exited... HOW that trail of particles is left that high up... and WHY doesn't this xray show the bone as seen in the photos from the same time? A shot from the rear, from the 6th floor, exists his face... WHY do we not have a single Parkland witness say there is any damage to the face, front or top of the head and yet can have Boswell give us this "approximation" showing virtually the entire skull missing?

Logical? JFK was bending over to tie his shoes at z224? the right transverse process of the vertebrae DONT get in the way THE BULLET HAS TO TRAVEL UP to get from the wound to the throat even though is was shot from above This same bullet is supposed to turn right then down at a steeper angle than it was shot IF the bullet made it from back to front, the wounds suggest it simply fell out of the front of his neck Mr. SPECTER - We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton background. Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388? Commander HUMES - I do not believe so, sir. Mr. SPECTER - And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist? Commander HUMES - I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers? Mr. SPECTER - Yes, please do. Commander HUMES - The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments. Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found: "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination." The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be in tact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. One of the main players in the conspiracy cannot even be convinced that the SBT was possible.... Can you offer us any evidence whereby a bullet RISES from back to front while entering JC on a DOWNWARD trajectory... or fromt right to left and still be in a position to hit JC? the WCR apologists have been trying this for 50 years.... and still can't do it... care to add anything to their failures?

the difference between's DVP's position being FLAWED and FRAUD. as of 12/9/63, 2 weeks and three days after the assassination... the USFBI, even though "leads are still being covered" can conclude: that the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning. A. Assassin in Building As the motorcade was traveling through downtown Dallas on Elm Street about fifty yards west of the intersection with Houston Street, three shots rang out. Two bullets struck President Kennedy, and one wounded Governor Connally. The President, who slumped forward in the car, was rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. XI. Scope of Investigation Since the assassination of President Kennedy, more than 2,000 people have been interviewed by the FBI in the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald .... In addition, investigation has included a detailed examination and analysis of Oswald's personal effects and correspondence, and analyses of his finances and connections with other persons and organizations Investigation has (1) developed detailed background information concerning Oswald from his birth to his death; (2) strengthened the evidence that Oswald was the assassin of the President although no clear-cut motive has been established; and (3) despite numerous allegations which have been investigated, developed no sound evidence indicating that he received any financial assistance or that any other person, group, or foreign government inspired or directed the assassination or was cognizant of his plan to assassinate President Kennedy. On the contrary, the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning. Also, investigation has disclosed no evidence that Oswald, while residing in Russia, was recruited by the Soviet intelligence services or received any assignment or training from the intelligence services. Further, investigation has developed no proof of any prior contact or association between Oswald and his murderer, Jack Leon Ruby. Leads are still being covered, and the FBI will continue to check out any additional allegations or information which come to its attention and I was sure the investigation was of the assassination of JFK.

Is it possible for unicorns to exist in caves in the middle of Mt Everest? Possible? most anything is "possible"... Thomas... ever consider the thought that Oswald was pure military and was ORDERED to fall on the sword... claim he's a patsy... play a part.... are you asking for evidence of the thought or just opinions and discussion? Do we understand that "playing an active part" in the conspiracy and "being entangled by it" still get one INVOLVED but at two very different levels. Elmer Todd ordered to get Perry to reverse his position is "playin an active part" Kellerman orchestrating the Bethesda scene... ACTIVE Oswald went home thursday... something he'd never done. He was specifically called out as not there afterward - the first on the list of employees. If he was PART of the conspiracy.... all he had to do was sit there in the corner of the 6th floor, rifle in hand, and wait for them to catch him. Do the witnesses who place Oswald with Ruby and Tippit give us evidence of involvment of set-up? How would you differentiate the evidence to tell the difference? and if he somehow knew it... all he needed to do was be in a photo at the time of the shots.... His behavior suggests either a devious co-conspirator or a man set up... at least how I see it... today. DJ

Where? Really David? How about YOU answer questions posed to YOU and I will answer them when asked of ME... K? Sorry DVP, but that drawing at the instruction of one of the commissioners is FRAUD... This is an exerpt from the JAN 27, 1964 Commish meeting... LONG before Ford works this magic.... Mr. Rankin: Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time. We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front , and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through. So that how it could turn, and -- Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a finger's length. Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said The hole in the jacket was 5 1/8" below the collar.... 5 1/4" on the shirt. the "14cm below mastoid process" is a technically incorrect way to identify something on the body... The hole in the throat was ABOVE the collar as described by the nurses and doctors who saw it before the removal of his clothes... the holes in the shirt is once again FRAUDULENTLY described as the exit holes for the SBT bullet.... FRAUD is being perpetrated by the WCR writers at most every turn... prove otherwise. In criminal law, fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; A flaw occurs when it is NOT INTENTIONAL.... FLAWED Adjective (of a substance or object) Blemished, damaged, or imperfect in some way. (of something abstract) Containing a mistake, weakness, or fault. Will you now tell us that this change was NOT INTENTIONAL and without the full knowledge that he was intentionally deceiving the reader about the wound as described in the extant autopsy and by Burkley?? No David, the SBT does NOT work out fine... from back to front an 11 degree angles was determine.. 11 degrees UP from back to front. AND a 25+ degree from right to left - which would extend past JFK to JC for the SBT to even be considered... How again does an 11 degree UPWARD angle become a 25 degree DOWNWARD and if the right to left angle is correct... how far over to the left must JC be to even get hit? Oh wait... JFK needs to be leaning over to tie his shoes at the time... you have anything that changes JFK's vertical position in the car as well?? No, bullets are taken, removed, hidden and lied about. they do NOT disappear. The only thing RIGHT about this book is the Title

Sorry David, but not so much. That there was a conspiracy and cover-up is a priori at this point... it's a postulate, an AXIOM from which intelligent and honest people discuss the case. It has only been the WCR apologists, the LONE NUTTERS who these past 50 years search in vain for the evidence of his guilt in a tome so entirely discredited within the first few years of its existence as to render it one of history's finest example of FRAUD as perpetrated by the US Government. Evidence itself is not "flawed"... the manner it was collected, preserved and presented is... so much so as to render it FRAUD... Specter's SBT for example. So David... is this FLAWED or FRAUD? (edit: in case you're not paying attention... one makes the SBT "more" possible without addressing all the other problems CREATED by moving the shot to that location... while the other is the truth and makes the SBT and the rest of the WCR the pile of burning bs it is...)

Well one of 2948 is KINDA like the only one.... Now... if he had one of THESE it would be worth something...

The two biggest lessons that JFK conspiracy theorists need to learn are these: 1.) "Flaws in the evidence" do not automatically equal "All The Evidence Is Fake". and 2.) "Flaws in the evidence" do not automatically equal "Oswald Was An Innocent Patsy". A lot of Internet conspiracy theorists do not seem to agree with either one of the above two statements. But each of those statements is 100% true nonetheless. That's correct David... Flaws in the evidence requires we look to CONTEXT, COROBORRATION and AUTHENTICATION of said evidence to determine its value When this is done, "FLAWS" become "FRAUD" and point directly to a conspiracy and cover-up... how that changes the determination about Oswald is a matter of interpretation. If you conclude that a T3 bullet hole is moved to the middle of the cervical vertebrae for "clarity" - and this is simply a FLAW or FRAUD with no bearing on the evidence as a whole or Oswald's guilt or ability to have performed the assassination from his supposed position... you're a bit more far gone than anyone cares to know. Tell you what Dave... try telling us what FLAWS IN THE EVIDENCE means... not what it doesn't mean. (and not just 1 flaw buddy, ALL the flaws... what in YOUR MIND do they add up to... just the grossest examples of massive incompetece ever seen? coincidence upon coincidence?) At what point do the FLAWS in the WCR and beyond actually lead to Oswald's guilt and to the conclusion that all the evidence is actually reliable, authentic, coroborrated and within context. Stop trying to get us to prove negatives... YOU offer a conclusive statement about said evidence and support it... offer some evidence you can PROVE is not Fake or Flawed... and has a bearing on the case. C'mon now Dave... here are the WCR conclusions and a few questions.... got the chops for it? 1. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository. (put Oswald in that window) 2. The weight of the evidence indicates that there were three shots fired. (the HSCA proved that wrong plus there are numerous “marks” in DP from that day to prove well more than the 4 shots the HSCA found (they actually found 6, 2 were not fired from the only two locations they test- fired from… they were still gunshot sounds… just not from the GK or SE window) 3. Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot. hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. (please present said evidence – show how an 11 degree UPWARD angle needed to connect back to front can be accomplished from 70 feet above the target) 4. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald (any evidence that shows he fired a rifle or THAT rifle was fired would be appreciated) 5. Oswald killed Dallas Police Patrolman J. D. Tippit approximately 45 minutes after the assassination (please connect this with the killing of JFK and the evidence presented by Markham and Bowley) 6. Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer. (and this has to do with JFK how?) 7. The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning Oswald’s interrogation and detention by the Dallas police : (a) Except for the force required to effect his arrest, Oswald was not subjected to any physical coercion by any law enforcement officials. He was advised that he could not be compelled to give any information and that any statements made by him might be used against him in court. He was advised of his right to counsel. He was given the opportunity to obtain counsel of his own choice and was offered legal assistance by the Dallas Bar Association, which he rejected at that time. (Newspaper, radio, and television reporters were allowed uninhibited access to the area through which Oswald had to pass when he was moved from his cell to the interrogation room and other sections of the building, thereby subjecting Oswald to harassment and creating chaotic conditions which were not conducive to orderly interrogation or the protection of the rights of the prisoner. © The numerous statements, sometimes erroneous, made to the press by various local law enforcement officials, during this period of confusion and disorder in the police station, would have presented serious obstacles to the obtaining of a fair trial for Oswald. To the extent that the information was erroneous or misleading, it helped to create doubts, speculations, and fears in the mind of the public which might otherwise not have arisen. (explain what this has to do with FLAWED EVIDENCE) 8. The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning the killing of Oswald by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963 (this has what to do with proving Oswald’s guilt or the killing of JFK?) 9. The Commission has found no evidence that either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby was part of any conspiracy, domestic or foreign, to assassinate President Kennedy (it was right there, in a pile in the corner… they didn’t even bother to look at it… what exactly are Duran and Alvarado? What was he doing in Mexico or why was he FRAUDULENTLY placed in Mexico? please address the evidence that DOES indicate a connection and was presented in the WCR… it was found, it was ignored…. Just another FLAW?) 10. In its entire investigation the Commission has found no evidence of conspiracy, subversion, or disloyalty to the U.S. Government by any Federal, State, or local official (there’s “found” again do we really need to cover the mountain of evidence that DOES support this?)) 11. On the basis of the evidence before the Commission it concludes that. Oswald acted alone Hoover on Dec 12, 1963: I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man. The FBI report from Dec 9th: On the contrary, the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning. 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD. (who would you say are the agents MOST IMMEDIATELY REPONSIBLE for the President’s safety? Greer? Kellerman? Ready? - who are they talking about here David and please provide the evidence that shows they reacted “promptly” All I have is this Greer who has without a doubt the GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY and ABILITY TO AFFECT JFK's ENVIRONMENT: just stares at him as he is killed...and this AFTER he is told to get the heck ouot of there... Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat As you can see below, Kellerman has his hand/mike to his head starting in this image at z302... he had ALREADY told Greer to get out of here. Instead of leaving, Greer SLOWS and turns to look at JFK. Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away. So David... is he lying or is the Zfilm wrong?

The only 99 cent book that's 98 cents overpriced... well... you get what you pay for. So, anyone wonder how he addresses the 11 degree UPWARD MOVEMENT of the SBT with a shot from 70 feet ABOVE the target... The holes in the clothing at T3 and Humes letting us know he was working on JFK 25 minutes before he arrived... at least he got the title right