David Josephs

As long as you remember to give credit, if used, where credit is due. btw, you do not have to QUOTE the entire post to write a single line.... the waste of bandwidth is as crazy as the room it takes up on screen and on disc... My post is just above.... a little forum etiquette and consideration of others Mervyn... give it a try

It's called.... telling the truth and staying true to one's convictions... We had a man a while back who freely admitted to not giving a care at all to the JFK case... like you he only looked for reactions and for what he could TAKE from the group... all the while setting fires as he went. Discussing the religious aspects of a "cover story" without having the first clue of what's being "covered up" (or even the humility to learn) just shows how little you not only care for the knowledge necessary to have a decent discussion on the topic, but your disdain for the realities of the JFK assassination make having ANY discussion with you pointless.... Dulles used religion as a cover.... Examples can easily be found.... An ex-director of the school explains the origins and associations and you STILL refuse to pull head out of sand... I have no worries over being moderated for dealing with the likes of you.... it's closed minded sycophants as yourself who make this place so much more difficult to enjoy than it should be... Your efforts here do not go unnoticed...

deleted... too obvious - you aint gonna learn what you don't wanna know...

Agree with you? You offer nothing but questions without answers, and then get indignant when shown how far from an accurate analysis you've strayed... What I fail to understand is how the moderators allow a sycophant like yourself to remain spewing this garbage. PLEASE don't respond to any "jing-jang" In fact, why not just toddle off and try to convince some other forum of your bona fides...

Mervyn.... Your use of language is really quite offensive What is further puzzling remains your inability to answer a simple question or acknowledge the shallowness of your knowledge base here... It's truly as if you've never heard of the creation of the OSS, FBI's SIS, ONI, MID, MIA, ACSI and on and on... So it remains your contention that this pseudo radar operator (An aircraft MAINTENANCE man is not a radar operator Mervyn) after returning from Atsugi ( a CIA U-2 base) and a stint in the Philippines, decides to unilaterally apply for a spot at a liberal arts, and music college to study philosophy in March/April 1960... 6 months after he is discharged on a faked bereavement discharge... he never went to help his mother... but to leave 6 months early for a school he never officially gets accepted to... So since you are the NEWSPAPER AD specialist... please post the ad Oswald would have used to acquire the applications he sent to Rhode Island... the ad that you keep posting has an address in NYC... please show us an ad or ANYTHING with the good reverend's address in RI... or at least show us when he contacted the address in this ad and had them send "details and info" This is now called EVIDENCE MH... This is the statement of Mack Osborne... "Turned down" ?? But you can show us the ASC letter of acceptance.... right Mervyn? On March 28, 1959 ASC replies... no acceptance, just sending the correct forms to RESUBMIT his application to both RI and ASC... You're aware those things are never done... the original 3/4/59 dated application, and the undated yet signed bottom portion of the ASC-received application... Yet somehow between March 28 and June 19 Oswald is made aware of his acceptance.... Really? How does Oswald know he's been accepted by June 19? Especially in light of Osborne's ELY INTERVIEW which states he was told by Ozzie that he wasn't "excepted" (sic)... Yet.... He sent the $25 in June 1959... Show us the acceptance letter from ASC MH.... and why, out of the blue, does he send $25 on June 19th? Assuming you find the acceptance letter - or anything which informs Oswald he's good to go.... This is followed by acknowledgement of receipt of the $25 and a package of info sent to Oswald on July 10th... The next correspondence we have is MARCH 22, 1960 with ASC using Oswald's last address, that there will be a delay in the start of the semester... He has of course been discharged and has gone on the voyage to ASC with a new passport from which this image comes... It's Sept 4, 1959... the man KNOWS he applied to a school yet has no info at all that he's been accepted... but can state with conviction on this app that he's going to college... and going to Finland... Next we have this Sept 19 1959 letter from Oswald in New Orleans to his mother... He "couldn't tell her about his plans" - meaning that ASC - a liberal arts and music school and Oswald studying philosophy isn't something she could grasp? Or do you suppose he was talking about his impending defection? Hey Mervyn... the excited youth going off to study in Switzerland does not mention it at all in his final letter to his mother from the US... Doesn't seem to have said anything about Albert Schweitzer College in the few days they have together.... Do you suppose he was going to get from Russia to Switzerland 6 months down the road to attend school? Oswald appears before SNYDER and writes out his renouncement who in turn sends it to the USA... As we reflect on this document we again are reminded of the timing related to ASC.... None of the things he's done - including anything he did in his England layover - had anything to do with ASC or attending... (when and if you ever look into the reality/purpose of this statement, the results, and then what he was considered by the different agencies who passed judgment - you may see the spy craft a bit more clearly) Oswald gets a response... Next we have his letter to Robert... Nov 8, 1959.... and now we have an address for Oswald in Russia... Do we not find it a bit odd that there is no mention of the school he so vehemently wanted to attend? No mention of Finland and another university? Gee - I wonder what happened? We are then treated to Oswald's reply which mentions the receipt of a letter from Robert with a number of questions... Have you ever seen any of the letters sent TO OSWALD IN RUSSIA? This letter goes on for a while.... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=839&tab=page And is followed up by another letter in Dec basically explaining that Oswald will be cutting all ties with the past and not write any more letters.... we wont be seeing another letter from our little defector until January 1961 Back to ASC... this March 22, 1960 letter is sent to the Marines address and ultimately winds up with Marge in Ft Worth... This is the ONLY letter written in any direction in 1960. And now, obvious to all, Oswald never intended to go to ASC, never intended to be a student traveling thru Europe... As you look back thru these letters and notice the lack of discussion (something Oswald was never short of) about ASC and what might be found there... In no time at all he is in Minsk and meeting Marina (who had already met Webster) and getting married... There are those who will want to keep making this about a young man, religion and who knows what else... when the intelligence community was worried about his passport, his being impersonated or worse... So MERVYN - you aware that Oswald had an established drop point to get info out of Russia as well as receive instruction? That his debriefing by the CIA is a ghost.... but we know who did it, when and why.... we also know quite a bit about his intelligence services support around him.... So as you MERVYN, continue to insert foot in mouth on subjects well out of your reach... you might consider reading about OSWALD's life BEFORE hoof in mouth disease.... although if you finally do start reading about Oswald, maybe... just maybe you can come back - tail between your legs - and apologize for what you've done here... that is if you're man enough to admit mistakes...

I failed no such thing sir.... School was the LAST thing on Oswald's mind... Sorry you don't see that. Like telling us that Webster was more interested in the trade show than defection... Or that any of the dozen defectors had other interests... Of course they needed to APPEAR as if they were doing other things. It Seems to me you know next to nothing about spying and want to keep the conversation in your area of expertise despite it having nothing to do with Religion... Start a thread on Dulles' use of religious groups as cover around the world and maybe you can begin to see what we are talking about here. Maybe explain how "traveling" to ASC in Sept 1959 makes any sense when the semester he specified on the app starts in April 1960... Jason wrote: Can we just forget all that and look at him as an insecure 19 y.o. boy in 1959, just to see where that leads? Sadly no, we know too much to demote our understanding to that level. He was not some kid trying to get to school... The educational excuse may meet some criteria so it LOOKED ok, but our Ozzie was far from being a student at this point... Nor would it matter... Again, these events are not isolated test tube examples but an interwoven tapestry of deceit and spy craft which the US intelligence community had been practicing since the 30s. You both may approach and discuss this any way you choose... Making this about the pawn, the patsy, the expendable asset just shows how narrow your focus is to the detriment of your vision. Your ability to see a bigger and bigger picture in which these events live and breath. I thank Jason for his compliments about how I present my thoughts. If we don't remember that the Evidence tells the story of the conspiracy, NOT the story of the assassination we are doomed to make assumptions like this one about ASC, Univ in Finland and the reasons behind his being sent on his trip 6 months too early... His passport app said 4 months of travel... 6 months before classes began....

Nailed it. Robert... How smart is it to enter another's living room, vomit on the carpet, and then tell The owners how bad the decorating is.... Its call SPY CRAFT... maybe he could read a book !

But not the Swiss police? Or were they not looking very hard?

Jason, an advertisement does not generate its own application.... the correspondance flows as such.... March 4 1959 application signed and sent to Rhode Island from S. CA March 28 1959 the school send him a note explaining he sent the wrong form.... and send him the right one.... No changes to the 3/4/59 signed app are made... AND the application tonthe school is not a 2nd copy but a different app entirely. The school contacts the address they have in March 1960 to inform Oswald when he should arrive.... he is supposed to have attended in April 1960, not Sept.... the Gorsky Oswald is out in March.... 1959. Coincidence? And my point remains... if Oswald could find it, why couldn't the French or Swiss police? Finally, and really notnworth arguing is that he was part of a defector program... he was coached as to what to say, where to go, etc... The school has nothing to do with it... it was a cover... just as the religious relationship in this area is.. a cover. or at least thats how its presenting itself....

Truly not necessary to re-quote the entire post.... I appreciate your focus.... hopefully as you continue to look you will find that as hard as you try, no part of this exists on an island. Calling it a "Cult" is also not anything that will ingratiate you here... do you normally walk into other's houses and begin by insulting their intelligence? Sir, I've already provided you with evidence stating LEE OSWALD left the Marines in March 1959.... with his records sent to Washington DC by Gorsky... so telling me that OSWALD was in the marines in Sept 1959, got a passport and went to New Orleans is in direct conflict with established evidence... Your hard line about 50 years of hot air is understood, from someone with so little interest in the case... and yet again you sh#t all over your hosts... That an "official line" has not been changed it vintage GARY MACK... how often does a corrupt history get rewritten? And "one last thing" for me as well... your mixing of religion and political marketing is a rookie mistake and well understood... the "Selling" of ideas and ways to think has been fostered upon the US people for longer than you want to know... religion notwithstanding... Religion added to the POV and the thought process, but discounting what the US Gov't did to "the People" over the past 80 years leaves me thinking you're not aware of the actual history of the US but only the homogenated version sold to kids in school and to adults in a manner we like to call ... Marketing. This is a JFK forum Mervyn... you might consider that when commenting here.

So it turns out that our man Josepf Dutkanicz and Vladimir Sloboda - who both defected in the summer after Oswald, 1960, were both Military intelligence.... both ACSI (now where have we seen that before Steve Thomas?) but please don't jump to any conclusions... like Army Intel was somehow involved in getting Oswald to Russia.... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96584#relPageId=3&tab=page

bumping this for Steve.... et al... Seems the ACSI was somewhat involved with at least 2 of the defectors on the list from Otto which included Oswald, Webster and these 2.... That appeared to me a bit too close to home to ignore... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96584#relPageId=3&tab=page

Robert.. I'm with you in a general sense... in a specific sense... this sentence sure comes close... The "point" is that spot from where JFK was definitely shot BEFORE reaching.... and shot solely by OSWALD... which of course has nothing to do with shot ballistics... unless you need to have the shooter in a specific spot. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin. Commenting on the delivered assassination events and survey reports of the FBI and Secret Service: Redlich writes one of the most incriminating sentences to date: I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.

And most honestly, I would not take ANYTHING the Warren Commission says about Oswald... I doubt we'll ever see John Ely's original notes or reports....

"Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong will teach you more about the circumstances regarding his life than any other book available... Finished in 2000 there have been a few things learned since... we're working on a single, copy-able thumb drive that contains the entire book, CD-ROM and all the Baylor notebooks... until then, the book may still be available as a pdf online https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Harvey_And_Lee.pdf I too cannot agree with everything found in that book, yet 95% offers an amazingly detailed look into Oswald's life... DJ

I never said that FRIENDS were related to Quakers... you did. I was trying to get you to see that your limited exposure to the JFK evidence precludes you from coming to a broader conclusion than you do... the FRIENDS incorporated in NYC was to help funnel money and students to the college... Right... (sarcasm) that this trip had nothing to do with religion. It had to do with spy-craft. Sun Tzu - all war is deception Oswald was not coerced into pretending to defect... after REALLY wanting to go to ASC to study philosophy... that is a conclusion you are proposing based on extremely limited JFK exposure... Just go see for yourself - and if you can answer the few questions posed, even better... i.e. Show me the proof Oswald knew he was accepted to the school...

Please don't correct me for things I never stated. As for your interests - they are your interests. My interest in the entire JFK matter is a side issue attached to a greater investigation. I am not and never have been involved with any JFK group. I can claim by 'accident' of geography to having lived next door' (so to speak) to the grave of LHO, and I can also claim to have driven so many times that I have lost count over the spot where JFK got shot. As I passed by I noticed all the tourists on the grassy knoll taking pictures and then returned to the real world. I am NOT a JFK addict. I don't like the man, or his brother and I have no interest in their glorification. I just want to know more about the involvement of people and events that collide with my research project. Please read the threads that you start! ================================================== I post like this to fully explain the thinking and sources... you're looking at one piece of the puzzle and pretending it's not attached to any other part of the same puzzle... doesn't really work that way. Sir, I have and I do. As you've said, your interest in the JFK aspect of this discussion is limited - which is the very reason you seem to be happy coming to conclusions that don't take the rest of the case into consideration. As for "driving over the spot" - I doubt very highly that you know where those spots actually were... that "X" on the road is yet another fairytale like this trip to ASC you seem so fixated upon... as I've been writing now for a few years... The Evidence IS the Conspiracy MH - Point please to the things of yours I've corrected.... for it is most difficult to CORRECT something when the author is only speculating on whether they are facts in the first place. If you are talking Quakers and Unitarians... time to move on... this has nothing to do with the religious aspect of any of this... he never went to ASC for he was never supposed to go - he was part of a military/CIA defector program... Is that concept truly too much to digest? That a COVER STORY was created so it did not look like a Marine was sent to Russia as a spy... You think WEBSTER was a trade show exhibitor for RAND? And then there's DUTKANICZ... https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=112143&search=dutkanicz#relPageId=2&tab=page who was so much like Oswald a comparison sheet was done: You've arrived at these two options: 1) Lee Harvey Oswald was confronted by someone who had tremendous threat value to himself. In other words, "you will do as I say, or else." Or else what? Maybe harm to his family members in Texas. 2) Lee Harvey Oswald vanished and someone else took his place And I'm saying we're nowhere near that point in the discussion.... plus, you offer less than nothing in support of your theory... Just as plausible an explanation is "Oswald was pretending to be going to ASC - he was part of a defector program" Mervyn... there were quite a few others at that time.... Why is that angle on this trip so hard for you to accept in lieu of being FORCED into defecting? I truly believe you are forgetting with what we are dealing and making this more about religion than is called for... the entire point of the defector program and this trip was to get Oswald into Russia... period. To gain some insight into what goes on there... I have a few questions What do you suppose the chances of Oswald NOT getting accepted to ASC were? In Southern CA in March 1959 - where did Oswald get the application with the RI Reverend's name on it? The acceptance letter from ASC states the forms he sent were the wrong ones, to redo them with the forms now sent and send a copy to the Rev... except if you look closely, the single application we do have was signed 3/4/59.... how does the paperwork all get redone and resent... and when does Oswald learn he is accepted? For if we continue looking for such an acceptance... we are hard pressed to find one yet if your theory is correct... Oswald being accepted is definitely a prerequisite for clandestine travel as a spy... no? Why is the "Application to ASC" so different and only a small piece of the application sent to RI? or is this simply all we have in evidence related to these forms? From John Armstrong's notebooks we have a response from Ernest Cassara who was the interim director at ASC in the 63-64 school year.... ... the International Association for Religious Freedom... appears more the mover/shaker here.... and I understood there to be some concerns with that org... the IARF... "The International Association for Religious Freedom (IARF) is a charitable organization that works for religious freedom around the world. It was founded in Boston in 1900 and is the oldest international interfaith group."

WCD321 is a 235 page chrono of Oswald starting Sept 1959 from HELMS. (note. He mentions the BYP and the 2 newsletters as proof of pro-Communist views yet the 2 papers he is holding offer opposite views of the situation... the same person would not be reading both of those papers) Anyway, he notes that Oswald mentions going to the UNIVERSITY OF TURKU in Finland... as well as A. Schweitzer as well as visit the countries in between as a tourist... ALL IN 4 MONTHS? And his locations were determined by... the stamps on the passport, not any 1st hand knowledge... (p16) I found a Thesis paper on the Life of A. Schweitzer... which included a list of letters, one with the following description: Letter from Hans Casparis, founder of the Albert Schweitzer College in Churwalden, Switzerland, February 26, 1968. Problem being, the school moved from CHURWALDEN in 1965.... the "FRIENDS" newsletter of Dec 1965 says they are trying to raise funds to move, while all the histories say they moved in Dec 1965... ???? Yet nothing I have yet come across offers the address of this new location... and a look at the town itself shows very little looking like a "larger chateau from which to run the school" I believe, that for us to figure out the significance of the planned all along ASC stopover which was just dropped once he hits England.... and he came to send a Unitarian Reverend in RI his application... Well... the top of the ASC application tells the sender to make 2 copies, etc... one has to wonder where OSWALD gets this application.... while he is still in the MARINES in March 1959... in Southern CA... Where do you suppose that application came from?

MH - p[lease don't take this as any type of attack on the ideas... you just seem so willing to just drop info that doesn't suit you... I'm just as interested in the research and what turns up as anyone... but please don't just accept the surface story on its own merits... that's just not how Angleton worked.... Bjorn is important... he takes the time to recall a semester at ASC (you know anyone else writing about being there?) yet none of the student rolls has him listed... hmmm, who do we know that creates bogus documents as back stories to their covert ops .... "FRIENDS of ASC" is not a Quaker group MH... I posted quite a lot of info as well as links to more info... Quakers are NOT Unitarian by definition but by choice if even. Although raised a Quaker, Ezra Cornell, founder of Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, attended the Unitarian church and was one of the founders of Ithaca's First Unitarian Church. Eramus Darwin Shattuck, a signatory to the Oregon State Constitution, founded the first Unitarian Church in Oregon in 1865 If you look up Unitarian, the word "Quaker" does not appear.... but I know Dulles used the Quakers around the world to help provide cover... was wondering about his grip on the Unitarians.... ==== Re. Schacht is listed as a member as well as a "Friend of the Committee" Iowa appears to be a place where a Judy Cutler lives after attending ASC.... and it also says that the College moves from CHURWALDEN to CORCELLES-sur-CHAVERNAY... yet there does not to be any record of a school there... so I'm still looking... There would be very little reason for our Oswald to be going to ASC - a liberal arts and music school catering to all students from all countries including Socialist and Communist.... I find it impossible that the FRIENDS of ASC and the other support... Do you have any info in the new location in 1965/66?

The person who went on that ship was not the real LHO who was discharged in March 59. The real Oswald stayed in the USA and was seen in Dallas and Miami on numerous occasions. Whether this defector was KGB coming back, or real CIA trying to get in.... I simply don’t see how our man Oswald is not fully aware of his role and expectations... Read the letters he wrote to Robert.... in order... the change from never leaving to got to get out is drastic....

Not doubting you MH... just that how hits work.... you think there were 115000 ads and diff mentions of this school? The school that anyone could find opening a paper was hidden from the Swiss police? You don’t really think that, right? And what does Ozzie have to do with Unitarians? Nothing... he was a false defector doing his best spy imitation on the way over.... You honestly think this was a real spur of the moment decision? No way. So why is it so strange to create a plausible story despite how history treats it... how we come to conclusions about it... if he flew straight to Helsinki then got a quick visa and was in... kinda obvious, no?

Btw, every link to newspaper archives will count as a hit.... I doubt there were more than 50 unique announcements or ads

Why does it take 2 months for them to find the place if every newspaper has an ad for it? Why does Bjorn’s name not appear on the student lists despite his recounting his time there? Can this simply be the flimsy cover story for his part in the defector program... he was on the way to school and decided to defect, spur if the moment like....

Still don’t see how Oswald is even aware of this man and that school.... without some association to the “Friendsl https://firstunitarianprov.org/about-us/our-history/history-first-unitarian/ The ministry of the Rev. Dr. Robert H. Schacht (1931–68) was among the most significant in the history of the church. A long-time admirer of Albert Schweitzer, Schacht himself had a reputation as a warm, kind individual committed to humanitarian, civic, and social issues. He helped found the World Affairs Council of Providence and the Rhode Island State Council of Churches (from which First Unitarian resigned in 1973 when the RISCC charter was revised to grant voting rights only to churches that embraced a Trinitarian theology). In response to the diverse ethnic character of the nearby Fox Point neighborhood, the church sponsored an interracial Boy Scout troop for many years. Dr. Schacht’s long friendship with the Rev. Arthur E. Wilson of Beneficent Congregational Church and Rabbi William G. Braude of Temple Beth El fostered a long and productive interdenominational relationship among the three institutions unparalleled before or since. Substantial steps in the continuing modernization of the church occurred in 1953. The name was officially changed to First Unitarian Church of Providence; the Church and the Benevolent Society, previously independent organizations, were merged; and the prudential committee form of governance was instituted. The church school expanded considerably during the 1950s. Signing the covenant as a requirement for membership was eliminated in 1965. Beginning in 1953, the church hired a series of assistant ministers; Dr. Schacht was instrumental in bringing to the church the Rev. William Jones, then one of the denomination’s few African-American ministers. In 1955 the church purchased the property east of the Parish House in order to construct a new religious education wing, with classrooms, an office, and the Sharpe Memorial Chapel. In 1966, the Meeting House was again restored, for its 150th anniversary. Within a year, lightning struck the steeple; the ensuing fire and the water to extinguish it caused extensive damage to the sanctuary. Rebuilding efforts began immediately, and the Meeting House was quickly re-restored to the condition seen today. Older members of our congregation still fondly recall Dr. Schacht, who continued to attend the church until his death in 1978. His two sons are still members of the congregation.

Is the pastor on the USA “Friends of Albert Schweitzer College” LIST in NYC? Still does not explain how he was aware of the school in the first place... And wasn’t Dulles involved with 1st Unitarian ?