David Josephs

Paul, his shipmate Billy Lord... if not found, I’ll post tomorrow... the other two as well give accounts... a Lt Col retired army who Steve Thomas touches on in his excellent thread on colonels.... yet as I’ve learned with MacFarland and Pam Mumford... testimony that is provably wrong is not evidence against.... it was 1959 and this was Cold War front lines.... I see clearly now what Sandy is proposing above.... Sandy... The patterns only emerge at 5000 feet.... will need time and serious thought.... Employees... a stretch... feels more like Pawns to me... if they shine, if they rise above the pack... they become Bishops and Knights...

But Gary was not part of the defector program.... Did Webster have one thru RAND I wonder. Also. The card with the Minsk photo could not possibly be what was in his possession in Sept 59, right? The photo would have to be different

I wrote Moscow... at the hotel versus the train station "He was met in the hotel lobby by Rimma Semenova Shirakova, age twenty-two, a graduate in English and Arabic from the Moscow Foreign Languages Institute and an Intourist guide" from the link in my post above....

Exactly... That site above says she met him at the hotel, after arriving in the morning in Moscow.... I just looked it up and created a map, but not available now.... Its a walk from the train station to Torni then to Kurki.... The details of payment and such Seems relegated to "reliable sources" as none of the diff copies of evidence say or show real evidence.... Un-footnoted chronology in story form.

I've found that many of the page counts are wrong... And to that extent.. 200 page docs are 3....

"Reliable CIA sources" = we may have made the whole thing up ourselves.... but you can't tell...

Seems there was a variety of ways for him to have gotten to Helsinki All the WCR ever spoke of were "DIRECT FLIGHTS" as if there was no other way... Kinda changes the significance of the University of TURKU in this journey

So he saved a few bucks? lol Jim... the evidence for KLAUS KURKI.... signed register? http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/moscow1.htm is this reliable? Peter Wronski Lee Harvey Oswald, age nineteen, arrived in Moscow on the morning of Friday, October 16, 1959 by train from Helsinki. He would have disembarked at the Leningradsky train station at Komsomolskaya Square which is located in the north-east quadrant of a ring road that encircles the center of Moscow. (The US embassy is located at the west compass point of the ring road.) He was met by an unidentified Intourist representative and driven to the Hotel Berlin, which at one time, had been called the Savoy. (Today it has reverted to the name Savoy.) The Hotel Berlin is located in the Kuznetsky Most area, overshadowed by two enormous buildings: Detsky Mir ("Children's World"), a huge department store with a large selection of children's products on the main floor, and across the street, the Lubyianka complex -- the KGB Headquarters and former NKVD prison. He was met in the hotel lobby by Rimma Semenova Shirakova, age twenty-two, a graduate in English and Arabic from the Moscow Foreign Languages Institute and an Intourist guide. She was assigned to him as his personal guide, a privilege of Deluxe class tourists. That morning, Oswald and Shirakova toured Moscow in an automobile, stopping occasionally at various points of interest. In 1993, Rimma recalled that Oswald was mostly silent and did not interrupt her tour talk. In general, she found him polite and nice. They returned to the hotel at noon so that Oswald could have his lunch. A tour of the Kremlin was scheduled for the afternoon. When Oswald returned from lunch, he told Rimma that he did not want to go on a tour but that he wanted to talk. Rimma says they went outside and sat on a bench as it was a warm day. (Probably at Revolutionary Square, the nearest location to the hotel where there are benches.) In Rimma's account as described by Norman Mailer in Oswald's Tale (pp.44-45) (he only paraphrases her), Oswald told her did not want to return to the US--there was no sense to it. His mother had remarried and was no longer interested in him. Nobody was interested in him. When he served as a Marine in the Far East he had seen much suffering and the US had fomented unjust wars in which he did not want to take part. She had the impression that he had seen combat. He had read that the Soviet people lived good, useful, and very peaceful lives and he had come here to see this for himself. Now he wanted to stay, he repeated. This was a proper country for his political views. Rimma gives Oswald the nickname Alek because Lee sounds too Chinese and confuses the Russians. Oswald will adopt this name for the remainder of his stay in Russia. By the end of that day, a letter requesting asylum and citizenship had been written, signed, sealed and delivered to the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. A copy of the letter was included in the 80 pages of Soviet documents released in 1999 to the USA by the Russian Federation

BINGO. by George, I think he's got it... LOL So in reality, what occurs during those days cannot be attributed to changing any of Oswald's real plans.... Would MI-?/CIA be helping Oswald learn HOW to defect? Provide him with the time to practice his defection scene which SNYDER said looked rehearsed and provided.... who knows, right? Is the same person exiting the ship at La Havre the same man meeting RIMMA in Moscow? We come to find that the investigation was very reticent in showing photos of Oswald... the Captain and Purse of the ship don't even remember the man.... if you know anything about Ozzie this would be the opposite of who he was... he'd always make a memorable scene... that was one of his gifts.... --- The context for this trip is the infiltration of assets into Soviet Russia for the purposes of confirming and/or expanding our knowledge base... WEBSTER went to provide info on the plastics capabilities.... Oswald, it appears, helped confirm information related to Minsk.... Any and all means available would be employed to successfully infiltrate Oswald into Russia.... it is very possible that NONE of the things his passport say he did, he did... Then there's the fact that the PASSPORT PHOTO and our little man didn't look all that much alike... these photos are only weeks apart... As I forget to mention above, the photo on the DOD card is FROM MINSK.... the actual photo at the time of the passport application was probably similar to the one on the left below... but it was changed... as was the SSS card to the man on the right... wonder why he would have to fake a card (either SSS or DOD) that was supposedly given to him anyway? When all there is, are stamps and 2nd hand referral (hotel registry) the ease in which this is created cannot be underestimated.... The CIA (and by default the military) were masters at creating the back story... Which is probably why most of the Military records on Oswald will never be seen. Mervyn, I am sure that you have much to offer from a POV many haven't thought from before... but your wholesale discounting of 50+ years of work rubbed EVERYONE the wrong way... We're really not all that stupid out here buddy... If you'd take some time and delve into the DULLES/QUAKER/RELIGION situation you may find his activities at direct odds with JFK in conjunction with the cover of religion.

Couple more things courtesy of Armstrong: Within 2 weeks of sending his $25 deposit to ASC, he is working on the affidavits for a Dependency Discharge On his PASSPORT Application and in the reports after the fact, we find he used his DOD ID card on Sept 4, 1959 to apply for his PASSPORT Problem being he didn't get the card until the Sept 11, 1959.... oooops Within 2 weeks of applying for his passport... he's in Russia, never having given a second thought to ASC or some Univ in Finland...

the "evidence" we rely upon here Jim is strictly the Passport stamps.... I have yet to see the TORNI hotel register... the claim is he checks in at 2400 on Oct 10... That in itself is strange... 24:00 Oct 10 = 00:00 Oct 11.... He then checks out on the 11th and finds a cheaper hotel.... Shades of Mexico City are starting to creep into my thinking here Jim... When a stamp and a signed book are the items of KEY evidence... we have an exact repeat of Mexico. So sadly we need to ask whether any of this evidence can be corroborated... those couple of days and this trip has never been a focus of my time, until now. Let me do some digging....

A pleasure... really. It is IMO enough for a man in Oswald's situation to seek ASC admission merely as a way to legally travel. {sigh} "Oswald's situation" is where the train jumps the track here.... how about you fill us in on this "situation"... as you see it. In the meantime, let's take a small step backward... his dependency discharge which allows him to get out earlier than he THOUGHT (Dec 1959 due to the giving back of the days spent in the brig))... You think that was initiated by Oswald from his sincere interest to care for his mother? First... what takes him 2 WEEKS... we come to find out from Lt Col Kozak that a hardship discharge is a 3-6 month process... Second... what does Oswald do once he gets out to care for his mother....? Jason, He spends a grand total of THREE DAYS with her.... and then leaves for Europe.... The documents he just recently processed describes a DIRE situation for the woman... yet he neither gives her any money or spends any time with her... and just leaves..... with the situation not changing at all. What has happened, Mr. Rankin--when Lee stayed with me the 3 days, he left his seabag with me. And that is why I have his discharge papers and things. And then, as you know, when the defection broke, I had no place to go. So the lady I was working for even threatened to call the police, because of' the defection. I was working for $5 a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. But I was happy to have a home and food, because I had had this accident, and I could rest. But my salary was $5 for the whole week. But when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. It was a very cold winter night. And I said I would. But I didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go. She said, "You will leave now or I will call the police." So I called Robert and he told me to come out to his home. Robert; Jason? If Robert was a phone call and a drive away in October, he wasn't in August? Do you understand that the activities Oswald goes thru from March 1959 thru his departure in Sept serve a single purpose - provide this man with a plausible story for why he is traveling to Switzerland.... yet once again a simple indicator... how can Oswald put down a 4 MONTH STAY and a departure date of Sept 21 if he is SO EXCITED about ASC which would not start until April... 6 months after his planned leave date... These kinds of mistakes are the cornerstone for uncovering the conspiracy.... He knows he's taking a boat, he states he's going to A Schweitzer college... he would know he starts in April, agreed? If so Jason, then the conflict is very hard to resolve... In the context of AN INNOCENT MAN TAKING A TRIP (which is what I see you saying up to the point "something" changes the plans) do you see where "4 months" is a problem - as well as not being in his own handwriting... maybe he was asked by the person taking the app? either way "4 months" is a big red flag and a large thorn in the side of your theory that Oswald was doing this on his own based on his desire to travel and go to the school... his letter to her from New Orleans He's so excited to be going that he completely forgets to mention WHERE he's going.... but reminds his mother of the differences in her sons... What do you suppose would be the "concepts too hard to understand" stopping Oswald from telling his mother he's going to a Liberal Arts College in Switzerland? Given you claim he went based on his own desire and initiation.... what could be so nefarious as to stop him from telling his mother about this innocent little school? "Dear Mother, well, I have hooked passage on a ship to Europe. I would have had to sooner or later, and I think it is best to go now." "I would have had to sooner or later, so I think it is best that I go now. Just remember above all else that my values are very different from Robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how I feel. Just remember this is what I must do. I did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. I did not see Lillian while I was here. I will write you again as soon as I land. Lee." Mr. RANKIN. What do you think he meant by that? Mrs. OSWALD. That is what I want to tell you. All of this speculation, gentlemen. And that is why I say the Warren Commission--unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion. Now, what would you think about this? A few days later you get headlines, "Fort Worth Boy Has Defected to Russia." And I made the letter public. This letter says to his mother he is defecting to Russia--right? That is the way you would read the letter. It is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to Russia. So you would read the letter that way So even Marge here "gets" it... She could not know at the time what he meant, but once he defected we get the "A-ha" moment.... she goes on to confirm this Mr. RANKIN. Did you know that he spoke Russian at that time, when he had this passport? Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir; I did not know. The only time I knew that he spoke Russian is what came out in the news. But when I really knew was Lee's application for the Albert Schweitzer College. Shall we go into that--the application? "But when I really knew".... what Jason... what do you think Marge here is saying that she "knew"... connected with his speaking Russian and finding out he really did defect? No discussion of a hardship discharge, After three days he is leaving his mother. But we had a talk. When Lee arrived home and I will go into this thoroughly. I was ashamed when he arrived home. I was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. And my son came in about 2 o'clock in the morning. I have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. And, remember, I was destitute. I had no money. You have the affidavits evidently from the Red Cross. If you don't. I have copies. The first thing I said to him, "Honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place." I had a studio couch, which has two parts. The top part I put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room. So he said, "We will talk about it in the morning, Mother." So morning came. I brought the subject 'up immediately. I said., "The first thing we will have to do is find a place. I am well enough that I can babysit or pick up a few dollars. And until I settle my claim, I think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job." He said, "No, Mother, my mind is made up. I have thought this out thoroughly. I have no background. If I stay here, I will get a job for about $35 a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. I want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money." Jason - if the man was truly interested in ASC.... and his mother was well aware of the college and how it now suggested a cover story to get him to Russia... why does he never speak of the school, never express a single desire... "Import and Export" was something he was involved in at TUJAGUES.... which in turn opens an amazing can of worms between HARVEY and LEE (but that's for another discussion) Jason... I enjoy the discussion yet at this point it is incumbent on you to start showing your cards... Speculation on an island is fun but not very fruitful.... Use your MICRO POV to scratch the surface a bit more than you have... Oswald "desiring" to attend ASC was never part of this equation... when you see that and begin to see the different programs employed by the Military/CIA to get intel agents into Russia... maybe you'll see what we're saying here... Cheers DJ p.s. how much do you think he earns at the TSBD?

Steve... Wanted to show you yet another example of HARVEY LEE OSWALD... the Hardship discharge... this is prepared by Oswald, for his mother, with the help of Chief Warrant Officer Ed Spahr.. and submitted AUG 17, 1963...

Jason, And here we meet the impasse... You seem to completely disregard what it means to be involved in SPY-CRAFT.... ASC is a cover story... a back story from which information is provided should there every be a look into Oswald's Bona fides..... "Says on the application he was a student, he applied for and was "accepted"(maybe), he has correspondence from... and since a student can get out of the Reserves earlier - he MUST have actually been a student... You see Jason, there is no Cause-and-Effect there.... I mean there is MICRO and then there's microscopic... You simply cannot disregard the man's entire life and the situational evidence of a defector program to make a point about his interest in ASC... Let me show you by example... To give you some idea of how unimportant "education" was to Oswald... from the time he was in Jr High he has shown disdain and contempt for organized schooling... The CARRO reports talk about his not saluting the flag and basically causing disruption throughout the day... and this is AFTER a 2.5 week stint at YOUTH HOUSE.... During the time in the Marines it is said he READ A LOT.... but did not attend any classes or go for any extra instruction... Fast forward to the Oswald Project and the end of April 1963.... Mrs. MURRET - Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it." I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." If you are going to stay on this tack... can you at least show us there is some reason to believe that this man given his history and the climate at the time... was actually interested in ASC... Thanks

Here you go Mike.... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/157-10008-10145.pdf The way you have it here - the doc ID is seen as a phone number....

The special interest today, within the general field of Communist activity, is the field of Communist youth activity, and the committee will seek information particularly, from the witness today, about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Our witness is Richard Gibson. Senator Dodd. Raise your right hand. https://archive.org/stream/fairplayforcubac0102unit/fairplayforcubac0102unit_djvu.txt https://ia802700.us.archive.org/16/items/fairplayforcubac0102unit/fairplayforcubac0102unit.pdf is the actual document in pdf form HEARINGS BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTEATION OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER INTERNALISECURITY LAWS OP THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION APRIL 29, MAY 5, OCTOBER 10, 1960 TOGETHER WITH HEARING HELD JANUARY 10, 1961 Mr. Sourwine. You have been a member of the India delegation to the United Nations? Miss Grant. I would like to decline to answer that question on the following grounds: Lack of legislative purpose, lack of committee jurisdiction, lack of pertinency, and on the basis of my rights under the first amendment and on the basis of my rights and privileges under the fifth amendment. Senator Dodd. Well, now, I would order you to answer except that you have claimed rights under the fifth amendment and the first FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE 69 amendment. Do you actually feel that if you answered this question yes or no, you might incriminate yourself or degrade yourself? Miss Grant. I have the same answer. Mr. SouRwiNE. Miss Grant, is it true that when you visited Moscow in 1957, you marched in the Lenin Stadium with the American Youth delegation, led by Jacob Rosen, who dipped the American flag to Khrushchev? Miss Grant. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated Mr. S. Is not Mr. Rosen connected with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee ? Mr. Gibson. On the basis of my rights under the first and fifth amendments, I must decline to answer. Criley does not appear in the text of these hearings... neither does Mr. Dean.

She supposedly was there at the train station... Since the diary is the source for this...(are there Intourist reports?) its very hard to say.... Golub is Helsinki Soviet Ambassador? Embassy

This is the list... Yes, I think Otto was tasked with finding out the status from a military pov. The file gives a detailed account for each...

A nicely worded piece Robert... till I hit the nuke issue and that tired old cliche of the rift between these men... ..... We've been down this road with that awful book and author... Do a search please as I completely debunked this JFK/Ben-Gurion disagreement... The Israeli's went behind our backs as JFK was talking concern over proliferation to get help from the French. On January 1, 1961 a full report on the history and status of the situation was presented to JFK... JFK was more concerned with the ARABS taking up Nuclear arms in response to Israel, then on any disagreement with Gurion... There was also something called the Sonneborn Group of wealthy American Jews who help finance things in Israel... You think because Bloomfield is on the list... there is a direct line o the assassination?

For Jason Ward.... Help me understand Jason... He used "education", a traveling student to get out of his Reserve duty and leave the country early... One of the first things attributed to him once in RUSSIA, was the time it had been on his mind and the anguish when told he'd have to leave right away... How does the Albert Schweitzer School play into this story when after the boat trip with an ARMY LT COL, we simply do not see Oswald giving it another thought? Not saying another word about ASC or even the fact the semester wont start for another 6 months... not mentioning the school in any of the letters we have in evidence.... along with Mack Osborne telling us that Oswald told him he was not accepted... (I know it's unpopular... but Harvey and Lee may come into play here... the guy on the trip over MAY have been the man in the passport photo and not our little Lee. Our Oswald could just as easily travel on military transport while LEE sets down some mysterious journey... just a thought, yet as you apply the facts to the potential solution... things do fit) Can you explain to me how the school and its religious affiliations have anything to do with what actually happens regarding the defection? Thanks in advance for your consideration Jason... as for MH - he's on my ignore list... only so much GIGO I can take. ===== "I have waited for 2 year to be accepted." Balding stout, black suit fairly. good English, askes what do I want?, I say Soviee citizenship, he ask why I give vauge answers about "Great Soviet Union" He tells me "USSR only great in Literature wants me to go back home" I am stunned I reiterate, he says he shall check and let me know weather my visa will be (extended it exipiers today) Eve. 6 .00 Revive word from police official . I must leave country tonight at. 8 .00 as visa expire . I am shocked!! My dreams! I retire to my room. I have $100 . left. I have waited for 2 year to be accepted. My fondes (sic) dreams are shattered because of a petty official ; because of bad planning I planned to much! 7 .00 P.M. I decide to end it

Why is it that the purser and the Captain of a ship with only 4 passengers cannot say a single thing about our man Oswald or any of the other passengers? Especially since they ate in the officer's mess... Could CHURCH have somehow been involved in overseeing things? Just a thought. That ACSI, above, is defector related is an important lead... I'd think. Does this sound like our little Oswald?

There are no stamps in the 1959 passport book for MOSCOW since Oswald entered Russia at Vyborg via Vainikkala... Vyborg has a USSR Embassy which stamps the passport OCTOBER 15, 1959. It is a 1 hour train ride from HELSINKI to VYBORG. But it's only a 7 hour ride from Vyborg to Moscow... He arrives in Moscow on Oct 16th according to the completely discredited "diary"... by train and he meets Rimma from Intourist... What I am having trouble reconciling is the passing of a day for a total 8 hour train trip.... It's still, or already Oct 15th in Vyborg... Why does it take a full day to travel 7 hours? There is no indication he took the night train...

It seemed as if I had known that but couldn't find reference on the forum... Thanks... I always thought that most Embassy personnel overseas was Intel related.... I mean who goes to work for the CIA for 11 months and quits?

While the CIA denies that OSWALD spoke to CIA agents at the US Embassy in Moscow... He obviously did... and was handled by SNYDER in a manner to NOT allow him to defect... officially. Strangely though, after reading about the time and effort in the late 40's (and again in 1970) to work for the CIA, he supposedly only works from Sept 59 thru Oct 60. R i c h a rd Snyder was the Department of State consular officer on duty at the A m e r i c a n Embassy in Moscow when Lee Harvey Oswald appeared at the embassy to announce his defection on October 31, 1959. Though Snyder had briefly worked for the CIA in 1949 and 1950, the Review Board staff could locate no evidence in CIA files that he still had any connection to the CIA at the time of Oswald’s defection. CIA processed its 201 re c o rd on Snyder as part of the sequestered collection. The Review Board staff examined Snyder’s Office of Personnel file, but did not designate any records as assassination records https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/review-board/report/arrb-final-report.pdf p112 Do employees really ever LEAVE the CIA?? I'd imagine that the KGB was more interested in SNYDER to defect than to accept what Oswald was doing....

What you fail to see Mr. H is... Here, you are what you post/create/write. If not here, then post a link to where it's been done... In the 300 opportunities you've offered little if anything but disdain for this forum and the inability to listen to those who have just a bit more credibility than you when relating seemingly unrelated events. You come here posting as if no one in 50 years has given this any thought.... And then you post, proving you've not read anything about the case in those 50 years.... Yet you so need to be taken seriously you scream at everyone else for not understanding poor little you... Newsflash Merv... you're not saying anything we've not already heard... whereas EVERYTHING we post appears to be news to you... news you refuse to either consider or understand... So back the #$%^ off already.... You've not earned the right to abuse the core community as you do... that we continue toi even bother addressing you is a miracle and a shame... I for one am done. bu-bye now...