Thomas Graves

--Tommy edited and bumped

The article failed to mention that any Conspiracy Theorist who is constantly making bad so-called "witty" jokes and who says that he prefers to be called "Tommy" has, according to very extensive clinical trials carried out at McGill University, gone way beyond The Point Of No Return and should immediately be locked up in a padded cell (with no access to the Internet) for the remainder of his (or her) life! --Tommy

David, You make an excellent point. --Thomas

I agree. --Tommy

David, I take my clues about Nagell from Dick Russell's book, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992). So, in my view, Nagell was a double-agent, and he was charged with protecting Castro. He used this project and this cover to obtain information about the KGB for the CIA. But he would kill in order to protect his cover. Oswald was a small player in Nagell's world. According to Dick Russell, Nagell warned Oswald several times about the company he was keeping. As an alleged communist, Oswald never joined the Communist Party, never went to communist rallies, and more importantly, never had any communist friends or associated with any communists - ever. Instead, Oswald moved in right-wing circles in New Orleans. His most common compatriots were Cuban Exiles (what Dean Andrews would call, 'Chicanos'). So Nagell warned Oswald that if Oswald went to Mexico, Nagell would follow him; and if Oswald tried to get passage to Cuba, Nagell would kill him. This is because Nagell was aware that Oswald's FPCC front was only a front, and that the FPCC did not trust Lee Harvey Oswald. It is possible that Nagell warned the Mexican and Cuban Consulates that a fake FPCC officer would try to obtain passage to Cuba. Nagell would have killed Oswald if Oswald's fake FPCC street credentials would have worked. Not because Nagell was a communist, but because Nagell had to protect his own cover as a double-agent. Evidently Nagell believed he had bigger fish to fry than Lee Harvey Oswald. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Makes sense to me. Helps me to understand TMWKTM. Thanks, --Tommy

And all the people who saw LHO on the second floor are simply lying? I find it curious that everything Fetzer writes about involves some sort of alteration by the government. Dawn (emphasis added by T. Graves) Dawn, --Tommy P.S. <"altered"> <"altered" again>

And all the people who saw LHO on the second floor are simply lying? I find it curious that everything Fetzer writes about involves some sort of alteration by the government. Dawn (emphasis added by T. Graves) Dawn, --Tommy P.S. <"altered">

And all the people who saw LHO on the second floor are simply lying? I find it curious that everything Fetzer writes about involves some sort of alteration by the government. Dawn (emphasis added by T. Graves)Dawn, --Tommy

(1) there has been a long-standing debate over whether the figure was Lee Harvey Oswald or Billy Lovelady; (2) unlike past generations of students, Cinque has noticed that it is the shirts, not the faces, that matter; (3) Richard Hocking has pointed out that the time line is consistent with Oswald having been there then; (4) Don Jeffries has observed that, if Oswald was in the doorway, that demonstrates a conspiracy at work; (5) Robin Unger has reported that, in the best available copy, the Altens photo is not clear in the doorway; (6) anyone can verify for themselves that the face and shirt of a figure in that area has been obfuscated; (7) there was no good reason to alter the photo unless someone was there who should not have been; (8) the only one who should not have been there was the person who had been targeted as the "patsy". (9) Lovelady was stocky and filled out his shirt; Doorway Man has a slight build and loose hanging shirt. David, You gotta realize that for Fetzer and all the other hard core alterationists, everything was altered except, of course, those things which directly support their particular version of the "truth." --Tommy

This is getting ridiculous. Faces are a lot easier to identify than T-shirts collars, for crying out loud. Just look at the faces in post # 371. The ears and foreheads and hairlines in particular. It's Lovelady on the steps, not Oswald. And no, I don't think LHO shot at the president. --Tommy How do you know he's wearing Oswald's shirt? Oswald was so skinny, Lovelady probably couldn't even have put it on.

(emphasis added by T. Graves) --Tommy

This is getting ridiculous. Faces are a lot easier to identify than T-shirts collars, for crying out loud. Just look at the faces in post # 371. The ears and foreheads and hairlines in particular. It's Lovelady on the steps, not Oswald. And no, I don't think LHO shot at the president. --Tommy

My pleasure Pat... I apologize for letting myself get sucked down to his level. Although I have learned a few things about back-n-forth from you and Fetz... Back to the subject at hand... I posted an extreme blowup of the Door-man and asked who what we see can be considered a "Vee" neck collar... it is an EXTREME blow-up using the available files and shows me that there is much more shadow than Tshirt, how can the shape be identified since the collar itself is completely in shade? Rather than insults... if Mr. Lamson has the ability to SHOW US that this collar is not actually detectable.. as I have tried then he should simply show us and keep his insults to himself. Can you imagine the ACTUAL SIZE of the portion of the photo this represents? and yet, with my rudimentary skills I can offer an image that DISPROVES Fetzer and friends' claims.. My real quesiton are what are the two white streaks on Door-man's left side... I do not believe the right most one (looking at the photo) is the tie of the person behind him... Is there a version of Altgens WITHOUT these white streaks? DJ ps... Pat - CL is here for no other reason but to "push buttons" as he posts... at what point does his collective body of work get banned from disrupting thread after thread? All one need do is LOOK thru his posts... for every one that attempts to say something of substance there are 20 that are filled with insults and attacks... Are members "pushing buttons" solely to annoy others and disrupt threads the purpose of this place? Moderators? Accusations of "Making up false data" are simply allowed as the result of enlarging a section of an image? I enlarged an image to make a point while CL both refuses to offer an improvement and posts this kind of junk: He pulls the same BS on every forum and in every thread... just ask Duncan. Once more, I apologize for my posts to him and for not turning the other cheek... I will try harder. But is it a Fruit of the Loom T-shirt? I read somewhere that that was the only kind of T-shirt that LHO would wear. Had a hell of a time finding them in Russia. The State Department had to intervene. That CIA guy working at American Express in Moscow was the cutout. Just kidding... --Tommy

It's Lovelady on the steps. His ears stick out a lot more than Oswald's. Don't worry, Dr Fetzer-- it doesn't mean that LHO shot JFK... --Tommy edited and bumped

It's Lovelady on the steps. His ears stick out a lot more than Oswald's. Don't worry, Dr Fetzer-- it doesn't mean that LHO shot JFK... --Tommy

Why are you so desperate to try to prove that LHO was captured in the Altgens photo? There's so much evidence that LHO wasn't in the sixth floor "sniper's lair" at the time of the shooting that it really doesn't matter, does it? --Tommy

Your calling DiEugenio the village idiot sounds like a case of the pot calling the kettle "black". --Tommy

David, I appreciate your interest in my participation here at the Forum. I have too much invested in ascertaining the real truth of the JFK assassination, to just up and leave. I get a little bit frustrated at times, because of the condescending, patronizing analysis of my posts by some of the experts who don't contribute much to the revealing of facts, but have plenty of caustic, snide remarks if what they read does not fit in with their opinions about what happened. Some of the areas that are of intense interest, Oswald and ONI, details about the real Jack Ruby and his role in the JFK assassination, and German connections to the JFK assassination, as well as MK-ULTRA, are areas I have done extensive research on......I can make my case, which I fully intend to continue doing... Robert, Thanks for your preceeding post. If you haven't done so already, I highly suggest that you read "The Strength of the Wolf" by Douglas Valentine. The book has a lot on the (CIA-FBN) MKULTRA project. Nothing on Cameron, but lots on Sid Gottleib, Charles Siragusa, George White, et al. There's a fascinating chapter called "The FBN and the Assassination of JFK". --Tommy

David, At the 00:45 mark, the Robert Hughes film shows three fedora-wearing "suits" from behind, approaching the Main Street curb, stepping into the street, and, wanting to cross the street and proceed in the direction of the Grassy Knoll, looking to their right to see if any cars are coming. Evidently there are, because they don't cross but instead start walking down the south side shoulder of Main Street. One of them is wearing a dark blue sport coat and the guy walking to his right is wearing a gray fedora. The third guy is a bit in front of them a a little to their left. At least one of them walks down the shoulder a short distance to the left and starts talking with a young black woman of medium build (who's wearing a long light colored dress or coat and a scarf covering her hair) because she's summoned their attention and they walk up to each other. At the same time you can see a bunch of people, including several fedora-wearing "suits" who have already made it to the grassy area on the other side of Main Street and are now walking across the grass between Main and Elm in the direction of then grassy knoll. Perhaps some of these "suits" can be seen in the Cancellare photo, you know, the one with the grassy knoll steps in the foreground and the E.H. Hunt character crossing Elm Street looking like a spy?? --Tommy corrected and bumped

Chris, The link doesn't work. I'm in the habit of always testing any links I put in my posts, just to make sure they work. (Sigh), I wish everyone would do that. --Tommy

David, At 00:45, the Robert Hughes film shows three fedora-wearing "suits" from behind, approaching the Main Street curb, stepping into the street, and start walking down shoulder of the street (in the direction of the underpass) on the north shoulder of Main Street. One of them is wearing a dark blue sport coat and the guy walking to his right is wearing a gray fedora. The third guy is a bit in front of them a a little to their left. At least one of them walks down the shoulder a short distance to the left and starts talking with a young black woman of medium build (who's wearing a long light colored dress or coat and a scarf covering her hair) because she's summoned their attention and they walk up to each other. At the same time you can see a bunch of people, including several fedora-wearing "suits" who have already made it to the grassy area on the other side of Main Street and are now walking across the grass between Main and Elm in the direction of then grassy knoll. Perhaps some of these "suits" can be seen in the Cancellare photo, you know, the one with the grassy knoll steps in the foreground and the E.H. Hunt character crossing Elm Street looking like a spy?? --Tommy

As I have already pointed out: - a radar operator would not know a plane’s altitude because primary radar does not normally give this information. According to LHO’s OIC when he got back to the US they were experimenting with height finding radar but it only worked to 10,000 feet. - a Marine officer who served in the same unit at Atsugi a little before LHO and wrote a book about Oswald’s time there said they did not control (i.e. track) U-2 flights. He said this was done by a special unit. - We have no credible reports indicating a radar operator would have access to this information - We have no credible reports LHO gave them any use intel. Another problem with your theory is that there were only four U-2 flights out of Atsugi when LHO was there. They occurred on June 18, August 20, Sept. 9 and Oct. 22 1958. All were over China rather than the USSR. The last occurred after he had been “transferred out of MACS-1 and put on general duty, in anticipation of his return to the United States”. The 2nd and 3rd happened after he’d served almost 2 months hard labor following his 2nd court-martial in less than a year. The first was only 2 months after his 1st court martial. There were 100 men in his unit, even if we discount the claim his unit did not control U-2s, the odds that LHO tacked any is pretty small. I noticed that you dodged McAdams’ question, “And just what evidence of this did Powers have?” Powers was heavily criticized by critics for not having destroyed the plane and/or killed himself; he seems to have been looking for a scapegoat. What other “odd coincidences” were there? The Soviets had been tracking U-2 over flights since the first one on July 4, 1956. As of the second flight a day later: “An early warning radar for the system at Smolensk had detected Vito’s approach and estimated the altitude at 65,000 feet. Soviet air defence experts discounted the radar operators’ claims - no aircraft could fly that high, they judged!” Every over flight was tracked but Soviet air defenses were incapable of shooting them down. The CIA tried unsuccessfully to cloak U-2s from radar. On March 1, 1958 a U-2 from Atsugi “was detected and intercepted by MiG fighters that came uncomfortably close” this led to a suspension of Soviet over flights. So where’s the coincidence? Soviet over flights only resumed in July 1959 and were flown out of Pakistan. There were 3 Russian and an equal number of Chinese over flights between LHO’s defection and the Powers incident, so once again, what is the supposed coincidence? You mentioned that LHO claimed to have shown up at Powers’ trial but the trial was PUBLIC and IIRC there is no confirmation of Oswald’s claim. Even IF true he would have been just one of about 1000 people who attended. I’m not aware of anyone trying to ‘force [the door] shut but none of the evidence supports your theory. According to Holzman he accepted that LHO was the assassin, is that your interpretation of Nov. 22, 1963? Do you have any evidence that anyone believed LHO had a role in the shoot down BEFORE 1963? And Holzman never said directly that Angleton suspected that LHO gave the Soviets info that allowed them to shoot Powers down only that he might have “provide[d] information about the U-2. PS - I'll e-mail Gary Powers Jr. and ask him what evidence (if any) his dad had. SOURCES: THE EARLY U-2 OVERFLIGHTS OF THE SOVIET UNION http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp U-2 Overflights of the Soviet Union and China http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald – Marines: http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines James Jesus Angleton, the CIA, and the craft of counterintelligence http://books.google.com/books?id=H8q_zVR_5EYC&pg=PA198 See also: Spyplane: the U-2 history declassified http://books.google.com/books?id=uOcrDF0y-CAC Powers trial public: http://books.google.com/books?id=uzdWTBytwAIC&pg=PA398&dq=gary+powers+trial+public Attended by nearly 1000 people: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=GmBFlFKj8jcC&pg=PA24&dq=gary+powers+trial+public bump

LOL. If we were to examine the detailed routes for all of the many motorcades that JFK rode in during his three years as President, I'll bet you my next month's CIA/Bugliosi Disinfo Stipend that we could find a whole bunch of similar "death traps" that JFK travelled through. But since he wasn't shot and killed on any of those other streets, there's no complaint coming from CTers, is there? Even though there were no doubt a lot of situations that would equate very closely to the situation that occurred on Elm Street in Dallas. Or don't you think I could find even ONE similar "death trap" if I was privy to the detailed routes that JFK travelled from Jan. '61 to Nov. '63? Rather than chosing to go straight down Main all the way under the triple underpass and to then turn onto Industrial Boulevard and pass through an ugly part of town, the Secret Service made Kennedy's limousine slowly negotiate the Secret Service-illegal 120-degree Operation Anthropoid-like turn from Houston onto Elm, and pass close by the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll. The purpose of that Houston-to-Elm turn for the assassins was to get the limo to slow way down. It worked. The limo was traveling only about 11 miles per hour right before the fatal head shot(s). David, haven't you ever heard of Operation Anthropoid? Perhaps you should google it. No, wait! I'll do it for you so all you have to do is click on the link and read the article. (A synopsis for you: It involved a car, a hairpin turn, and an assassination.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anthropoid You might find this interesting, as well: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vMMvHtAuuMEJ:mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk11/hscv11c.htm+%22industrial+boulevard%22+%22elm+street%22+winos+%22main+street-houston-elm+turn%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (A) THE MAIN STREET-HOUSTON-ELM TURN As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was approached from the Elm Street ramp instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street. Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191) George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds cn Industrial Boulevard. (194) (emphasis added) --Tommy

By choosing "Choaden" for a name, Phillips was making a vulgar joke. For the etymology of the word, see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/choad#Etymology http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/choda http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coder --Tommy P.S. A big "shout out" to Greg Parker, who posted this on another thread last year...

Thanks Tommy, Some time ago, it was brought to my attention that it is possible that Carl Jenkins is Zaboth. Jenkins used the pseudos Carl James and James Beckhoff. Personally, I still think Henry Hecksher is Zaboth since he was AMBIDDY-1's case officer but there are some goofy memos out there that can be quite confusing. Zach Zack, The surnames "Raynock" and "Zaboth" are both unusual, especially the latter. I spent some time yesterday trying to determine the ethnic "ancestry" of those names but didn't make much progress (my 14-day free trial at ancestry.com expired a few weeks ago). Perhaps Tom Scully or Robert Howard could look into those two surnames, just to determine from which countries people with those names tend to come from, ancestry-wise. The reason I'm interested is because I figure Heckser (or whoever chose thos names for him) chose those names for himself in order to be able to work effectively as a spy in those countries (or perhaps in those particular US cities that have a disproportionately high percentage of people from those countries). One possibility is that "Zaboth" is of Slovenian derivation. And I suspect that "Raynock" is a variation of the British name "Rayncock" (Raincock)... --Tommy