Thomas Graves

___________________________________ Hi Dawn, Reminds me of one particular Sunday morning in the spring or summer of '68. The only time I've ever decided to go to church (the Presbyterian church in La Jolla) by myself in my whole life. Well, guess who was already sitting in one of the front pews when I arrived a little late?-- none other than that man of High Morals-- Richard "Tricky Dicky" Mill-House Nixon! Looking back at it, I realize that he probably just had some time to "kill" (pardon the pun) and seized the opportunity to make a real "righteous" impression upon the well-connected congregation. It was right during the campaign, after all. I'm sure the main reason he was in town was to get some more "dirt" on his opponents from and/or to solidify his relationship with his buddies "Dame" Hoover and Hoover's boyfriend, Tolson, who always stayed at the Del Charro in La Jolla during the Del Mar racing season... FWIW, Thomas ___________________________________

_________________________________ Thanks, Gratz. At least it gets your name on the front page of the "Tim Gratz's JFK Assassination Debate Website" one more time, huh? Would you have corrected Nathaniel's spelling if GPH hadn't corrected yours recently on the 'How does Ruby work in a Castro-did-it scenario' thread? Kinda like when you have a "bad day at the office" and go home and "kick the dog?" Why now, all of a sudden? If I'd corrected all of the misspelled words and bad grammar etc, etc that I'd seen on this website since I joined in September, I'd have nearly as many posts by now as you've got. And that's one hell of a lot. _________________________________

__________________________________ It's not the "El Choro," but the "DEL CHARRO" in my hometown of La Jolla, Calif. (12 miles north of downtown San Diego). The Del Charro was conveniently situated for owner Murchison, Hoover, Tolson and their mob buddies in that it was only about ten miles south of the DEL MAR RACETRACK in Del Mar, Calif. The Del Charro no longer exists... __________________________________

_____________________________ Miracles never cease... _____________________________

______________________ Excellent question, Ron. ______________________

_______________________________________ Gratz, Maybe you should ask Cuban Security. _______________________________________

________________________________________ Tim, Just because you've found a particular "Speaker's Bureau" which employs a few people who strongly resemble certain celebrities doesn't necessarily mean that people are often running into "look alikes" of themselves (or of people that they know). I can remember only two times during my 35 years of "adult" life when someone has said to me, "OMG! You look a LOT like my friend/a particular movie star/whomever," and I would imagine that my experience along these lines is probably pretty much the same as everyone else's. So, given the probabilities I'm talking about here (ie, pretty damn low), I find it very suspicious that so many so-called "look alikes" of known assassination-minded CIA/Mafia/Anti-Castro Cubans just happen to be caught on film in Dealey Plaza around 12:30 on 11/22/63. We're talking about people who bear uncanny resemblances to Rip Robertson, Conein, John O'Hare, Braden, E. H. Hunt, Izquierdo, McCord, Shackley (with dyed hair), etc etc etc in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63. All things considered, the chances of so many "look alikes" of assassination-minded people being caught on film in such close proximity to each other at the time of the assassination or shortly afterwards is simply astronomical. ________________________________________

______________________________________ John, With all due respect: What, specifically, does this have to do with the "JFK Assassination Debate"? Thanks, Thomas ______________________________________

___________________________________ Hip Hip Hurray, Gratz. God, Mother, and APPLE PIE!!! (A la mode, Mr. Gratz? Yes? Very good, sir. Will that be one or two scoops, sir? Three? Yes sir, not a problem...") BTW, did you know that "hurray" is a Mongolian word? (About as pertinent to the overall topic "JFK Assassination Debate"as this new thread is, huh?) Hey, that gives me an idea! Maybe Ghengis Khan dood da deed! (In cooperation with Trafficante, of course) ___________________________________

Hi James, I have no doubt that Witt, Novel or some of the others mention are TUM. Novel PSE test were interesting at the time but also very boring. I have copies of these PSE in deep files if that tells you something:) Capehart was photograph down in Mexico as well as in the plaza. He may have taken part in the demostration up in Canada, but I will have to recheck as my memory is somwhat fuzzy. Capehart was connected to Howard Hughes? thanks john ________________________________________ John, What is "PSE?" Is it a "lie detector" test?? Thanks, Thomas ________________________________________

___________________________________________ Gerry, This is definitely "light weight" compared to John's question, but here goes: Regarding your encounter with LHO outside the Cuban consul's home in Monterey Park, Calif (according to the March 4, 2005 newspaper article written by Mssrs Gratz and Howell and viewable, courtesy of John Simkin, at http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhemming.htm ), I understand that LHO "took off" too fast (for lack of a better phrase) for you "to get the license plate." I'm just wondering, was LHO driving or was he a passenger? If he was a passenger, any idea who the "getaway driver" was? Thanks, Thomas P.S. Keep up the good work! ___________________________________________

Unfortunately, what any of us think that we might do in such a circumstance, we clearly cannot know. Moreover, I've posted what people who were there, then, actually did in the "Robert MacNeil and the three calm men" thread. Two women went to the bank to transact some personal business immediately after the shooting. Another went to a restaurant a short while later. Still another had driven home for lunch and did not return (a third "missing person" during the roll-call whom nobody's mentioned before! Yes, he was a white man).For a complete list of TSBD employees and what they said they did (and in some cases, why), see this link. It needs some prettying up, but the facts is there! If I were innocent and didn't believe that I'd be working any more on any given day, I probably wouldn't even think about getting hassled simply because I knew I didn't do (whatever it was). __________________________________________________ Thanks Duke! I knew I could count on you to post the facts. Seriously, Thomas P.S. Did you complile this list yourself? (If so, all I can say is that you are a very dedicated researcher!) Thanks again. __________________________________________________

____________________________________________________ I think LHO must have had at least an "inkling" (as he sat there in the theater watching officer McDonald frisk someone else) that he was going to be frisked too, and arrested (for carrying a concealed gun perhaps?), and at least taken in for questioning. After all, the assassination had happened so close to his place of work, he had left the scene of the crime without permission, he was a former Marine who had tried to defect to Russia, he had lived in Russia for a couple of years, etc, etc, etc. I don't think the issue is whether or not he was willing to be arrested, but the probability that he was resigned to be arrested. I don't think he shot Kennedy. I think the fact that he'd been set up as a patsy started dawning on him as he sat there in the theater watching other people getting frisked. FWIW, Thomas ____________________________________________________

____________________________________________ John, I like your scenario. FWIW, Thomas ____________________________________________

Thomas, no offense intended, but I don't care how many million people agree with you, I am not one of them. Best Wishes, Ray xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Ray, I only know that if I had been working at the TSBD on 11/22/63 and the assassination of a U.S. President had just occured a couple hundred feet down the same street on which my place of work was situated and which the President's motorcade had just gone down after passing by my place of work, I would feel obligated to "hang around" my place of work (the TSBD) for "rollcall" purposes (and also because I would be just plain curious as to what the hell had just happened), unless, of course, I was directly or indirectly involved in the assassination or unless I had (finally) figured out that I had been "set up" to take the fall [in which case I would go home (using whatever "tradecraft" I could), get my pistol (if I had one), change my clothes, go to a prearranged rendevous spot (if I felt I could still trust the person with whom I was supposed to rendevous), or otherwise "bug out," "get out of Dodge," or however you want to put it, Ray. If I were innocent and simply left my place of work, I would just be drawing unwarranted and unnecessary attention to myself. Given his background and that of his wife, I don't think LHO would want to be "hassled" by the DPD or the FBI. Bottom line: I don't think he would have left work unless he had a damn good reason (like realizing that he'd been "set up," for example?). FWIW, Thomas P.S. Wow! Do millions of people really believe this? (I wouldn't have known that if you hadn't told me...) P.P.S. Why didn't you quote the whole sentence I wrote instead of just the first half of it? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

_________________________________________________ I agree. I think Oswald might have believed he was participating in a "fake assassination" and it only dawned on him that he'd been set up as a patsy when he had his famous encounter with the policeman (with gun drawn) and Mr. Truly on the second floor of the TSBD as well as when the woman at the TSBD told him that (real?) shots had been fired at the President. I think Oswald's leaving the TSBD after the shooting (with the excuse that he later gave during interrogation) "I didn't think there would be any more work that afternoon, so I left" looks either very lame or very self-incriminating, unless it is viewed from the perspective that he felt his life was in serious danger and went to his boarding room to get his revolver and to change his clothes. I think he did these things out of self defense-- defense from both the DPD as well as the people who had "set him up" in the first place. I think that someone he trusted told him before the ("fake") assasination that if anything went wrong, they were to rendevous at the Texas Theater, and that that person could very well have been Jack Ruby. FWIW, Thomas __________________________________________________

______________________________________ As I said earlier, I agree with you on this, Jack. Does anybody know whether or not LHO had a camera in May of 1959 which could have taken this photo? If he didn't have such a camera, how did this photo come to be one of his "possessions?" Was it a gift? A plant? ?? FWIW, Thomas ______________________________________

_____________________________________ I remember reading somewhere that LHO and Ruby were not only the theatre at the same time but were actually sitting in close proximity to each other. FWIW, Thomas _____________________________________

I tend to agree with you about shooting a cop: re-opening the Tippit murder might well be easier, and frankly, it seems like a much more reasonable approach than re-opening the whole can of worms. The difference between them is like a lunch at McDonalds (okay: Luby's, then) and a ten-course meal, and the list of suspects - or just those with motives - is substantially shorter.With 15 minutes, I guess I'd prefer to deal with something "digestible" than something completely satisfying in every regard. One would, as you say, dovetail into the next if the cases are related since, if someone else shot Tippit, it would certainly raise questions about everything else, wouldn't it. It's worth a thought. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Guys, Just like the Rolling Stone's song says: I know it's only rock 'n roll, but I LIKE it... (The idea of re-opening the Tippit murder investigation, that is. Obviously, figuring out who killed JDT should help prove who killed Kennedy...) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Merry Christmas, everybody! Thomas

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx John, I think I read somewhere that Oswald did try to shoot a policeman (McDonald?) who was trying to arrest him in the theater, but the firing pin of his .38 revolver was defective so his gun didn't fire. Maybe I'm wrong. FWIW, Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Robert, I wore my trenchent coat today, but no one thought I was wittae. FWIW, Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx By clicking on the link below, you can read a declassified (1993), generally unfavorable CIA book review of Andrew Tully's 1969 The Super Spies. The reviewer, Sherman Kent, mentions Tully's writing about WILLIAM GODELL's embezzelment problem(s) in the second paragraph of the book review. http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v14i1a08p_0001.htm FWIW, Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Just tryin' to keep this thread on the "front page"............... --Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Good idea, Duke. --Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Dawn, Yes, I am familiar with Richard's Rambler and agreed it might be the one photographed at DP. I think Richard knows where it is located and it could/should be salvaged and examined closely as the type of hard evidence that can be presented to a grand jury. As significant, I would like to identify its passangers, especially the man in the brown suit coat that was also seen standing on the sixth floor of the TSBD next to a man with a rifle in port arms positon, who left out the back door, went around the corner and got into the Rambler. There is a photo in another thread of DP that shows a Rambler station wagon in the backround. BK xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Dawn and Bill, Please see my recent post (#6) on John Dolva's thread "the unknown witness." FWIW, Thomas xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx