Steve Thomas

On 4/8/2019 at 5:04 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Tony,

PS: Catch the Harvey Lee Oswald reference? This is coming from someone who had spent the prior two years as the "deputy commander of the Intelligence Division of the New Orleans Police Department."

 

Steve Thomas

From A Farewell to Justice by Jim Garrison:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9mQtAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT58&lpg=PT58&dq="Francis+Martello"&source=bl&ots=JR-gT302sf&sig=ACfU3U16zptsusScb9ZTG9TaTboqkxRZlg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHibLhlsHhAhXLzIMKHdwhCdU4ChDoATAGegQICRAB#v=onepage&q="Francis Martello"&f=false

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tony,

Ford named only "the Texas Attorney General" and long-time Dallas "District Attorney [Henry] Wade...."  The Texas Attorney General at the time was Waggoner Carr.   

Robert Tanenbaum (former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations) testified that he read the transcript of the secret session Ford was referring to.  In 1996 Tanenbaum testified at an ARRB hearing in Los Angeles by saying, "the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI." (Click here for full testimony.)

Jim,

The WC Executive Session Tannenbaum refers to was January 27, 1964. You can read the transcript here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1328#relPageId=4&tab=page

If I remember right, the information came from the newspaper reporter, Lonnie Hudkins, who said he got it from Deputy Sheriff, Allen Sweatt.

And, if I also remember right, Sweatt got it from Assistant DA, Bill Alexander.

Steve Thomas

5 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Q. What would be the best way to blow one's cover as an FBI informant? 

A. Ask for a an FBI agent to roll up at a Police Station to speak with him.

 

Tony,

It never made any sense to me that Oswald would ask to speak to an FBI agent, and when that agent did show up, Oswald would just talk gibberish to him.

He would either say, "I've got some hot information that can't wait for 24 hours". or he would say, "Gee guys, I'm one of you, can't you get me out of here?"

Neither of those two things happened.

Those who believe that LHO acted alone in killing JFK would point to LHO's behavior as just one more example of Oswald's being unhinged.

I think LHO was surprised when Quigley showed up, and he just spouted off some more nonsense about communism vs capitalism and the FPCC.

When Quigley showed up at the police station, he didn't even know the name of the individual he was supposed to be interviewing. If Oswald had called the FBI, he would have said, "This is Lee Oswald and I've got some important information", or he would have said, "This is Agent T-1." or some such.

No, It was Martello who was driving the bus. Why direct Quigley's attention to the FPCC material before letting him see Oswald?

Quigley told the WC,

" Mr. QUIGLEY. At the time I arrived at the police station, Lieutenant Martello directed me to the commanding officer's office, where there was laid out on the table a number of different pamphlets, throwaways, relating to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which he advised me had been removed by the New Orleans Police Department from Oswald the previous day, August 9, at the time of his arrest, for disturbing the peace on Canal Street.
I reviewed, generally looked over, the material to see what it was. I was not familiar with any of this material. While I was doing this, he had not at this point identified who the individual was other than the person had been arrested the previous day; while I was looking over the material, the jailer brought in an individual who was then introduced to me by Lieutenant Martello as Harvey Lee Oswald. I then identified myself by credentials to Lee Harvey Oswald."

PS: Catch the Harvey Lee Oswald reference? This is coming from someone who had spent the prior two years as the "deputy commander of the Intelligence Division of the New Orleans Police Department."

Steve Thomas

9 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

“When did you get out?”  (Of jail, maybe, probably?)

Steve, Jim Hargrove can probably help us out here, but my guess is that the real Lee Harvey Oswald called his real Aunt Lillian and she let slip her surprise at his release from some sort of . . . custody?

 

Paul,

I was being facetious.

I'm pretty sure she was talking about Lee getting out of Russia, because his response to her was, "I've been back for about a year and a half now."

Steve Thomas

33 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie

Jim,

I liked this one:

Lillian Murret:

"Mrs. MURRET - “...one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian,...and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?"

*smile*

Steve Thomas

2 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Was DeBrueys “Oswald’s” FBI contact?

Probably.

Paul,

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1421&search=DeBrueys#relPageId=5&tab=page

Testimony in Executive Session by Warren DeBrueys before the Church Committee January 8, 1976

Are you aware of any information that DeBrueys ever said that he got from Oswald?

Steve Thomas

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

It may just be a matter of semantics; after all, prisoners have certain restrictions on how they can communicate with the outside world.

The first sentence of SA John Lester Quigley’s 8/15/63 report, describing his interview of Oswald in the New Orleans jail, reads as follows (emphasis added): "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the First District Station. New Orleans Police Department, at his request."

 

Jim,

Like you said, it might be a matter of interpretation, but I'd point out that in both cases (the FBI report and Quigley's testimony to the WC, Quigley said he went down to the New Orleans PD at Oswald's request. The information that Oswald had asked to see an FBI agent came from Francis Martello; but in Martello's own memorandum, there is no mention of Oswald asking to see an FBI agent. That's what Quigley was told, and we can't ask Oswald, because he's no longer with us.

At this point, I believe that Martello called the FBI office to give them a heads up, and he and Quigley came up with a cover story excuse for Quigley being there.

De Brueys might have been Oswald's FBI handler, but I get the impression that the FBI was an anathema to Oswald. They had given him nothing but grief in his life. For a long time I thought that the CIA had handed Oswald off to the FBI when he came back from Russia, but nowadays, I'm not so sure. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to think it was military intelligence, or some kind of CIA/MI combo. To me, it seems like he appeared in Military intelligence files a whole lot more than in FBI files.

Steve Thomas

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That would have created a mess for the authorities, and perhaps saved his life.  Had his public comment come later in the game, I wonder if that would have occurred to him.

"In the afternoon Oswald contacted the FBI office in New Orleans, while SA
John Lester Quigley was on duty.

Jim,

I can't speak for the author of Harvey and Lee, but from what I read, it wasn't Oswald who contacted the FBI. It was Francis Martello of the New Orleans PD.

In his memo, Martello wrote, ""Since he did not appear to be particularly receptive at this time, the interview was concluded and he was returned to the cell block. Prior to entering the cell block, OSWALD was again allowed to use the telephone."

Again allowed to use the phone? When was the first time? And, if he wasn't calling the FBI, who did he call?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/quigley.htm

Mr. STERN. How did you come to interview Mr. Oswald? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Lt. Francis L. Martello, platoon commander at the first district, New Orleans Police Station, called our office and advised that he wished an agent to stop by there since there was a prisoner who desired to speak with an agent.

In his memo, Martello wrote,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm ...

"About 10 a.m. on Saturday, August 10, 1963, I observed a placard and handbills which had been placed into evidence against an accused person. This placard contained information concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I determined that a subject by the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD was arrested on Friday, August 9, 1963 when he was passing out handbills on Canal Street and was carrying this placard about his person. 
"Prior to being assigned to the First District, I had worked with the Intelligence Unit for two years and since I was generally familiar with various groups and organizations that demonstrate or picket in the city, I decided I would question this individual to see if I could develop any information which would be of value and to ascertain if all interested parties had been...”

In his intelligence work: knowing that the FBI had declared an all-out war against the FPCC at that point, I can envision Martello calling up the FBI and saying, "You might want to get an agent down here to interview this guy".

Steve Thomas

2 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Those are all good questions. 

Oswald spent the night in jail in New Orleans, right?  I thought it would be standard procedure when a person was arrested then and kept in a cell to confiscate their personal belongings.  

Stephanie,

I was very surprised when I read this.

Unless Oswald was in some kind of holding cell or something, I would think the police would have confiscated his belongings if for no other reason than to prevent some other inmate from robbing him.

In his memo, Martello wrote, ""I requested the doorman to bring LEE HARVEY OSWALD into the interview room."

That made me smile. I pictured some kind of doorman in a swanky New York City hotel or something. In the last part of his memo, Martello wrote, ""OSWALD was then returned to the cell block."

As far as the card goes, a lot of people have said over the years that Oswald used the techniques he had learned at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall to make the card, but he had left there in April. He may have learned the techniques, but did he have the equipment to manufacture the card?

I don't know.

Steve Thomas

On Saturday, August 10, 1963, Lieutenant Francis Martello interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald in the station house of the First District in New Orleans, LA.

This was the day after Oswald had been arrested on August 9th.

When Martello testified to the WC over the two days of April 7-8, 1964, they reviewed a memorandum that Martello wrote for the Secret Service on November 29, 1963 recounting the interview he had conducted with LHO the previous August.

Two things jumped out at me concerning that interview:

1) The New Orleans Police had not confiscated Oswald's wallet as the Dallas Police had; and,

2) Oswald did not have the Hidell Selective Service card on him.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martell1.htm

"When OSWALD was brought into the office, I introduced myself to him as Lieutenant FRANCIS L. MARTELLO and I was in uniform at the time.
"I asked OSWALD if he had any identification papers. At this time OSWALD produced his wallet. Upon my request, he removed the papers and I examined them. He had in his wallet a number of miscellaneous papers, cards and identification items. The only ones that I felt were of any significance were the following, which I made note of:

"1. Social Security Card bearing #433-54-3937 in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
"2. Selective Service draft card in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD bearing #41-114-395-32, classification---4A. (I do not know what draft board was registered with.)
"3. Card bearing name LEE HARVEY OSWALD reflecting he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; address listed as 799 Broadway, New York 3, New York; telephone #ORegon 4-8295, headquarters for Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Card was signed by V. T. LEE, Executive Secretary; card issued 5/28/63.
"4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter President, issued June 6, 1963.

Either:

a) this card had not been manufactured yet; or,

b) Oswald was not in the habit of carrying it around with him; or,

c) Was the Hidell SS card mission specific to Dallas and not to New Orleans?

Was Oswald's wallet not confiscated because the New Orleans crime was less serious?

Did the Dallas Police confiscate Oswald's wallet so that they could add things to it?

Were the Library Card and the Hidell Selective Service cards bogus?

Questions, questions, questions.

Steve Thomas

https://boingboing.net/2019/04/04/the-memory-hole-2.html

“What we found was that the majority of news outlets had not given any thought to even basic strategies for preserving their digital content, and not one was properly saving a holistic record of what it produces. Of the 21 news organizations in our study, 19 were not taking any protective steps at all to archive their web output.

Instead, news organizations have handed over their responsibilities as public stewards to third-party organizations such as the Internet Archive, Google, Ancestry, and ProQuest, which store and distribute copies of news content on remote servers. As such, the news cycle now includes reliance on proprietary organizations with increasing control over the public record. “

“All that said, this is an excellent report, and sounds an alarm about the ability of our descendants to make sense of our age. “

So sad,

Steve Thomas

I've decided to be a convivialitist.

It's transformative.

And fits in rather well with the Aquarian Age, I think.

The best description I've seen so far is, "Personal freedom through shared interdependence."

Steve Thomas

On 4/1/2019 at 6:54 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Interesting that Hill volunteered to produce a carbon copy with all three signatures of the 11/22/63 report that apparently vanished.  Isn't it amazing that no one on the WC was interested, apparently, in seeing that vanished report signed by three Dallas cops! 

I'm not really convinced that Sgt. Hill was a conspirator. He may just have been used by Westbrook, his boss.

Steve--Are you aware of any other references to that 11/22 report?  

Jim,

No.

Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964 and Westbrook testified on April 6th.

Hill testified on April 8th.

The WC didn't ask Carroll or Westbrook about that joint report because they didn't know anything about it. They also didn't call Carroll or Westbrook back to "clarify".

I like this part of Hill's testimony:

"But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.
Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.
Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?
Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.
[Handing to witness.]
Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this."

(I only wrote one Report, but I also wrote this one too, but I forgetted about it and everything).

That funny business extended to the Library Card too.

The WC brought Jack Revill back on May 13, 1964 to "clear up a couple of things". One of those was where he got the 605 Elsbeth St. Address from. Revill told the WC that he couldn't remember, but he would find out and get back to them.

Warren Commission Document# 948 is a memo from Sorrels to Inspector Kelley dated May 19, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11344#relPageId=2&tab=page

In that memo, Sorrels says that Revill contacted Sorrels (it does not say how this contact was made), and said that Revill told him he got the 605 Elsbeth address orally from Bob Carroll. As the driver of the car that took Oswald from the Theater to the police station, Carroll allegedly looked back over his shoulder and read the address off a Dallas Public Library card that had been removed from Oswald's billfold by one of the officers in the back seat. Carroll allegedly said that he misread the number as 605 instead of 602.

This is six days after Revilll's WC testimony, and one month after Bob Carroll told the WC that no mention of an address had been made in the car transporting Oswald to City Hall.

When Carroll testified to the WC on April 3rd, he told them,

"Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.
Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.

There was some funny money being played about that ride back downtown.

Steve Thomas

Jim,

All of the officers who drove Oswald from the theater back downtown gathered together in the personnel office to compare notes and write up their reports on what happened.

Maybe the personnel office was the only one big enough to accommodate everyone at the same time - maybe it was something else.

Initially, they wrote up joint reports, but it was decided that the reports should be individually signed. These individual reports that you find in Box 2 of the DPD Archives were all dated December 2nd and 3rd - a week after the incident. http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm

Mr. BELIN. Where did you put the initials?
Mr. CARROLL. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?
Mr. BELIN. Where were you?
Mr. CARROLL. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police department.
Mr. BELIN. With Sergeant Hill?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, and others who were present.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walker_c.htm

(C.T. Walker)

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the President's investigation?
Mr. WALKER. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while until I got off.

Mr. BELIN. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him?
Mr. WALKER. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me two more." Or something like that. But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over. I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.

Mr. BELIN. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald had, did you?
Mr. WALKER. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details of the arrest.
Mr. BELIN. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of Oswald?
Mr. WALKER. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" letter. Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."
And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.
… they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.
I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.
He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.
This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself.

And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.
I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.
When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.
Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.
And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.
Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.
Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what?
Mr. HILL This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.

The report that Hill speaks of that is signed by himself, Carroll, and Westbrook is not in the records.

Hill's report is individually signed, and is dated December 3rd.

"But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.
Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.
Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?
Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.
[Handing to witness.]
Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this."

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?
Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest,... and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it,... .

DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7 Item# 4, page 2

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Report by Paul Bentley:

Steve Thomas
 

11 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Those five principles are perfect advice for improvisation, that's for sure.

 

Denny,

You've summed it up nicely.

Thank you.

Steve Thomas

1. Forget about predictions.
2. Focus on signals.
3. Look back to see forward.
4. Uncover patterns.
5. Create a community.

https://er.educause.edu/articles/2019/3/five-principles-for-thinking-like-a-futurist

" At its best, futures thinking is not about predicting the future; rather, it is about engaging people in thinking deeply about complex issues, imagining new possibilities, connecting signals into larger patterns, connecting the past with the present and the future, and making better choices today."

Does JFK's assassination tell us anything?

Steve Thomas

5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

.strange that it would involve more red tape but then again you wonder how much got fed back from Washington the other way...grin.

Larry,

An example of the "red tape" from the website you referenced...

Extract from an unfinished personal memoir called Up From Cambria City by COL Basil J. Hobar, USA (Retired) September 18, 2013Bonita Springs, Florida

“It took years for me to develop even an understanding of this array of organizations and units oriented on defeating the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies when they attacked. From the standpoint of 2ndLt Hobar soon to be on the “front” in Bamberg, the headquarters of 7thArmy and USAREUR might as well have been on the moon!”

“All these layers of bureaucratic organization caused problems with each piling regulation upon regulation. The Headquarters of the Department of the Army (HQDA) in Washington issued Army Regulations (ARs) and other directives that governed every phase of every thing the Army did. General Inspections, called IGs, were mostly about how well you were following those regulations. Each major headquarters down the chain of command issued regulations on top of regulations creating an impenetrable bureaucratic lash up. This maze of regulations flummoxed those of us who had to try to carry them out. In an extreme case I might be tasked to do something and before I could act I would have to have available the AR, the USAREUR regulation, the 7thArmy regulation, the 5thCorps regulation or directive and the 3rdID regulation! This could drive a man to drink. Somehow we muddled through and the Army did a lot of things very well.”

Steve Thomas

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, you might find something interesting in this batch of information - if you have not already seen it:

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/HqUSAREUR/USAREUR_HqUSAREUR.htm

I wonder if strategically part of the change may have had to do that by 1957 worries were not so much about the Soviets rolling west to the Atlantic across a broad front but rather about the increasing chance of military engagement over Berlin.  If that happened there would be no time to send signals intel back to DC for processing but you would need it right there on the front lines...strange that it would involve more red tape but then again you wonder how much got fed back from Washington the other way...grin.

The other big change going along with that was the decision to field a "pentomic division" and to face up to nuclear exchanges on the battlefield, that was a relatively new thing...but even when JFK faced his Berlin challenge his military plan included escalation all the way up to tactical nukes.

Larry,

I always looked at it as a power struggle. Information is power and whoever controls the flow of information controls the power.

The field commanders looked at it as who knows better how to respond to situations on the ground; them or the pencil-necked geeks back in Washington?

I think you saw this played out in Vietnam over the next decade as command and control decisions more and more were being made in Washington rather than Saigon.

The problem was that a lot of those front line generals were pushing for the use of tactical nuclear weapons. Some of those generals were even recommending that the use of "limited" nukes be left in the hands of front-line commanders, and that horrified Washington. Things could spiral out of control.

I can just envision the arguments that went on in the DOD and wonder where Eisenhower stood on all this.

I'll read the documents you referenced in your post.

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Steve, I don't want to intrude into the thread any further, the only reason I personally got into the security services and the subject intercepts was because of my interest in a) military communications and b) specifically in regard to the JFK assassination with the Kirknewton incident which you find written  up in detail in SWHT.   That might be useful if you take a look. 

The overall all tasking was that the Air Force did what you would call strategic, long distance intercepts on radio and teletype traffic....with separate installations (requiring huge antenna farms) in Scotland and England. One for military intercepts and one for commercial.  Both were NSA installations and focused on particular watch lists.  As far as I know the Army focused on tactical intelligence, targeting Russian, East German and Eastern bloc forces with a special interest in force composition, movements, logistics chains....which get really dull and boring and involve what unit and type of force is using what radio frequency etc...which is one reason lots of very dull routine military comm traffic had to be recorded and shipped back for computer analysis.

And of course Germany was still officially "occupied" through 1955 and the vast bulk of all overseas American Army personnel were stationed either in Germany or Korea until well into the 1960's.  And that's enough from me.

 

 

Larry,

Intrude. Please. You've been keeping my feet grounded for a good dozen years or more.

I think you're right about the Army ASA focus vs the Air Force or NSA focus. The Army's was more tactical.

Something else that has kind of fascinated me...

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

Quote:

Webmaster Note: The 502nd ASA Group had been a TOE (Table of Organization and Equipment) unit while the 507th USASA Group was a TDA (Table of Distribution and Allowance) unit. The underlying reason for the redesignation was in the ASA having been forced to downsize in 1957 after a DoD decision that year to cut the Army's strength by 50,000 personnel. The ASA found itself unable to sustain the manning of its tactical TOE units. In order retain a support structure in the tactical commands, the TOE units were inactivated and replaced by units which were tailored specifically to the needs of their supported command (i.e. mission tailored). These new mission structured units were TDA (Table of Distribution and Allowance) units. The designations of these TDA units also differed from the TOE units they replaced. TOE units were designated as "ASA" whereas TDA units were titled "USASA."

Whereas up to that point, the ASA's had been feeding their product direct to Washington, they were now required to report to the field commands - in this case, the majority of which was the 7th Army, which, if my memory serves me right,  was headquartered in Nuremberg.

A lot of the grunts grumbled about that. Too much red tape.

Steve Thomas

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I know that I'm always being a wet blanket but just for a sanity check I should say I've  interviewed three people who worked for either the Air Force or Army Security services, they were either radio/telegraph intercept message operators, code translators or language translators.  While they held high security clearances they certainly were not professional intelligence officers...when I talked to them two had served only one tour of duty and the other retired after a rather routine career.  All  had gone back to small towns, one working at a Walmart, one as a foster parent and the other at a similarly normal job.  The same can be said for several of the crypto operators and operations guys that I knew in the Air Force, and they were all enlisted rank.

Sorry, to intrude...but it may be a stretch to talk about "trusted with the highest military intelligence the nation possessed"....

 

 

 

Larry,

I don't mind you being a wet blanket. Reality checks are good.

On the other hand...

I don't think Ofstein was doing analysis. I think he he was doing intercepts though. How many people at that time knew we were intercepting Russian military traffic?

From what I've read, the 507th took the raw data and shipped it to either Fort Meade or Vingt Hill Farms where it was decoded.

As far as a job afterwards... How about this flight of fancy?

I had been doing some reading on the 507^th Army Security Agency Group in Germany in the 1950's and 60's. The soldiers talked about using IBM punch cards in their work. Several said that there was a job waiting for them at IBM when their hitch was over.

(Source: Email from John O'Neil) (served in 1960)

https://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/ASA%20Europe/USAREUR_ASAE.htm

"My next duty station (after Vint Hill Farms) was with the 507th USASA Group (Field Army) at Heilbronn am Neckar. We had 4 -2½ ton trucks with expandable sides that held all our IBM equipment that ran off portable diesel generators (one per truck).

Jim Campbell in his email said “(When I was in, no 206 had ever re-enlisted - IBM had a job ready for them when they got out.)” When I got out I went to the IBM office in San Francisco, showed them my diploma with TJ Watson’s signature and asked for a job, they asked me what I knew about computers, so I told them I’d seen one in Germany. I got the hint when they said ‘Goodbye, thanks for stopping in”.

Ian Lloyd, Why the Texas Theatre? Jfk assassination forum

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=da10693a75f6fceb0ce372badd010bff&topic=1633.msg24228#msg24228

According to Ian Griggs' "No Case To Answer" (Johnny) Brewer mentions "2 IBM men" who he says he didn't actually know, but were in his shop when Oswald ducked into the doorway but, when Brewer came back to his shop, they had disappeared never to be seen again?

Lee Farley, “Oswald's Escape Plan? Jfk assassination forum

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=da10693a75f6fceb0ce372badd010bff&topic=3304.msg61982#msg61982

“The main reason I place suspicion on Brewer is because when Oswald first entered Hardy's Shoe Store, Brewer claims he was with two people that he had known for over a year.  These two men, he says, worked for IBM. They were in the neighborhood and they popped in and were "killing time" and "lounging around." The Dallas Police didn't seek these individuals to find out who they were and what they saw. No one, it appears, was interested in them in the slightest. They just disappeared from existence.

Brewer had an interview with British researcher Ian Griggs in 1996. Brewer brought up the two men who were in his store (who worked for IBM) and he stated that in his absence they "locked up" for him. Lo and behold, Brewer says that although he had known these men for over a year, and they regularly came into his store to "kill time" he couldn't remember either of their names.”

Thomas Crigler told the FBI that he had "accidentally" met Dennis Ofstein on the street, and I wondered how that happened. Ofstein lived at 6015 Bryan Parkway in Dallas. That's over on the northeast side of Dallas. Crigler lived at 1705 McAdams in Oak Cliff. That's on the southwest part of town, about four blocks south of Illinois. The next major cross street to the west of 1705 McAdams is S. Hampton Rd.

I mentioned that there were a couple of Sinclair stations in Dallas. One of them was:

From the 1961 Dallas City Directory page 139

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/473/

J H Sinclair Service Station (James H. Bland) 1023 S. Hampton Rd. This is roughly 2.5 miles W/SW of the Texas Theater.

Thomas Crigler worked as an Army recruiter. There was a recruiting office on Illinois about one or two blocks from the Texas Theater and Brewer's Shoe store in Oak Cliff.

A lot of the guys who worked in the ASA said that they were recruited into the Agency directly at the recruiting office, even before they went to boot camp.

Ofstein himself told the WC, "Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I should have..."

How "accidental" was this meeting between Ofstein and Crigler.

Sorry this is so long. Like I said, it was a flight of fancy. What can I say. I'm a Libra, and as an air sign, I spend 95% of my time out in space somewhere.

Steve Thomas

17 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Whats interesting about this thread is that Ofstein also worked at jagger-Chiles-Stovall spoke Russian, and had a military intelligence background.

Paul,

I think that Ofstein is one of the most under-researched figures in the JFK case. It seems like most people sort of gloss over the military unit designations that they run across.

Crigler told the FBI that he and Ofstein were in the same unit; the 507th USASA Group, and people say, "Oh, that's nice" and move on, but I wondered, "What did the 507th do"?

Well, it turns out that the 507th was Army Security Agency, and they were tasked with intercepting Russian and German military traffic over in Germany. Ofstein had been trained in the Russian language at the Monterey School of Languages.

Ofstein was discharged in November of 1960 and after being trusted with the some of the highest military intelligence secrets our country possessed, he relocated to Dallas and went to work at a Sinclair gas station. At that point in his life he was married and had two children. So almost immediately after being discharged, he relocates to Dallas where he takes a job working in a gas station?

There was a Sinclair station at

From the 1961 Dallas City Directory page 139

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/473/

J H Sinclair Service Station (James H. Bland) 1023 S. Hampton Rd. This is roughly 2.5 miles W/SW of the Texas Theater.

And, another one

former Sinclair station 622 N Haskell Ave Dallas, TX. That's way out on the northwest side.

(There was also a Sinclair Service Station at 1820 N. Beckley in Dallas)

At 12:45 PM on November 22, 1963 Gene Andre Guinn, age 31 of 636 Lacewood was arrested along with the Joiners for picketing at the Dallas Trade Mart. Guinn was a member of the White Indignant Citizens Council. . Guinn was also suspected of printing the “Wanted For Treason” leaflets.

DPD Archives Box 7, Folder# 7, Item# 18

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box7.htm

According to the Mary Ferrell Chronologies, “Guinn runs for political offices and seems to be a right winger” (He ran for City Council in 1965.) His address would be in Police District 84, which Officer Tippitt had been assigned in the past. This street is near O'Bannon street where Mrs. Stella Jacob lives. She formerly lived at 508 S. Marsalis and she works at the TSBD.”

In a handwritten note to the Guinn citation, Ferrell adds, “He owned Sinclair Station, 1820 N. Beckley; member of hate group; did Rockwell's printing?”.

After leaving the gas station business (smile), Ofstein goes to work for Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, who, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, just happen to be interpreting maps for the US Army, some of which are in Russian.

Like I said, I think Dennis Ofstein is under-researched.

Steve Thomas

16 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - are we to assume that mr. Crigler was interviewed because he volunteered to do so? 

Whats interesting about this thread is that Ofstein also worked at jagger-Chiles-Stovall spoke Russian, and had a military intelligence background. 

Of course the info you dug up on Dinkin is in my opinion very important, yet no one has realized that. Clearly Dinkin was in a position, as he stated, to hear secret radio communications. The fact that it took so long for someone, you, to find out that the official stories on Dinkin had the wrong info on where he had been posted in Germany, is astounding, and it should have reopened the investigation of Dinkin as a viable source. Instead it seems to have gone unnoticed.

Paul,

I was very skeptical about Dinkin until I realized that the widely accepted story of his account was based on a false identification of the unit he served with. Once I started digging into what his real unit, the 529th Ordnance actually did, I began to accept the idea that he could have been in a position to do what he said he did.

Now, I can't prove one way or another that he intercepted radio transmissions hinting at or discussing JFK's assassination prior to the time it actually occurred, but he was where he said he was, and he was doing the kind of work he said he was doing.

Steve Thomas

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - are we to assume that mr. Crigler was interviewed because he volunteered to do so? 

Paul,

I don't think so.

Ofstein was interviewed by FBI Agent, Kenneth Jackson on December 2, 1963. Jackson wrote up his Report on December 3, 1963.

See CD 205 p. 472.

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=475&tab=page

Ofstein told the FBI of his having sought out Thomas Crigler because he was suspicious of Oswald when Oswald told him (Ofstein) that microdots could be “hidden under postage stamps and used in espionage operations”.

Thomas H. Crigler was interviewed by FBI Agent Kenneth Jackson on December 6, 1963. (CD 205 p. 478).

He told Jackson that he met Dennis Ofstein “accidentally" on the street outside the U.S. Army Recruiting Station sometime in August, 1963, and that they then went into the office.

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=481&tab=page

Something is not kosher here.

Crigler told the FBI that Ofstein had approached him in August, 1963. That is about four to five months after Oswald had left JCS. If Ofstein was suspicious of Oswald, why would he wait five months to voice his suspicions? Ofstein said he was concerned about his future employment opportunities.

Crigler said that he barely knew Odstein, yet, about a week after meeting Ofstein in August, he (Ofstein) had visited Crigler in his home, and that twice more he (Crigler) had visited Ofstein in his (Ofstein's) house.

Something is not adding up here, but I don't know what it is.

Steve Thomas

Eugene Dinkin served with the 529^th Ordnance Company.

In his work with the 529^th, Dinkin had a Top Security clearance.

There is a record of a 529^th Ordnance Company. They were part of the 71^st Ordnance Group, and were based in Massweiler, Germany.European Theater Ordnance Units & Activities, 1945 – 1989 https&&&www.usarmygermany.com/Units/Ordnance/USAREUR_Ordnance%20Troop%20List.htm

The 529^th Ordnance Co. was stationed in Massweiler, Germany as part of the 71^st. Ordnance Group, and did do nuclear weapons assembly work under the Advanced Weapons Support Command (AWSCOM) which was activated in March, 1959. There were crytographic operators working with those units in the 71^st who held Top Secret clearances.

On December 6, 1963 Thomas Crigler was interviewed by the FBI. He said that he met (Dennis) Ofstein “accidentally” on the street. Ofstein worked with Lee Oswald at Jaggars-Chiles-Stoval.

...he knew Ofstein from about June, 1960 to December, 1960 purely as another person attached to the same unit with him. He said that he had never become socially or well acquainted with Ofstein at that time. He said the caption of their group was the 507^th USASA Group, Heilbron, West Germany.”

That's US Army Security Agency, and the town is actually spelled Heilbronn.

See FBI interview of Crigler December 6, 1963:

CD 205 p. 478

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=481&tab=page

Robert E. Jones testimony before the HSCA page 7:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/unpub_testimony/Jones_4-20-78/html/jones_0007a.htm

The three of them are doing military intelligence work in Germany at roughly the same time in 1960.

The distance from Massweiler on the west to Nuremberg on the east is roughly 200 miles.

Very interesting.

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Oops, go that fixed

Keyvan,

If you were the original poster, you can also edit the title of your thread.

Just click and hold the title for a second or two. It will then let you edit it.

I learned that the hard way myself.

*grin*

Steve Thomas